Free Expressions: Writer, Editor and Publisher Lorin Oberweger Talks About the Process of Creative Writing, Editing and the Business of Publishing

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Welcome to the Holly Hughes
podcast.

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Today I have my friend and
amazing person and creative

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editor.
I don't, I think I don't even

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know what kind of editor I would
call you anymore.

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Like I know you have a word for
it, but we'll get to that.

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This is Lauren Overwer, who is a
highly sought after editor,

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ghostwriter and an author in her
own right with over 30 years of

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experience in publishing.
So thank you for joining me

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today.
Thank you for having me.

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We had, I'm going to just be
completely transparent.

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We had a Mercury retrograde
moment where the the screen went

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blank.
But Andy Go is my producer and

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he didn't believe in the woo woo
and the stuff and now I am

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making him a firm believer.
So thanks for coming back.

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Thank you, my pleasure, I said.
I would keep my hands to myself

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and cooperate.
When I'm a, when I'm a guest on

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podcasts or even sometimes like
I wear bracelets and I just, I

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just spin it or hold it to try
to keep my hands in place.

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But that I was going to get into
later because you also did work

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with Ted talks and that is part
of my Ted talk story.

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So I want I'm going to slightly
try to be linear.

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So if you were going to explain
who and what you are and what

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free expressions is, which is
one of the best workshops ever

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because it's multi layered, how
would you as the person who

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created describe it?
So I have seen it described as a

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boutique literary services and
workshops company.

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So and I think that idea has to
do with it's not, you know, kind

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of a big factory of editors
where you're getting sort of an

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anonymous person reading your
work.

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It's very hands on.
I think that's the boutique kind

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of quality.
It's there's the editing work

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that I do.
And just to explain that

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briefly, I would consider myself
a developmental editor first and

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foremost.
And I won't go through all the

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tiers of potential editing, but
the developmental editor really

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takes on the whole of a story
from a kind of concept to

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plotting to character
development and world building

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and voice and point of view and
kind of the big picture stuff.

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First, the organization of
scenes, you know, everything.

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And I think when many people
think of editing, they're kind

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of having an idea of like copy
editing that somebody who has a,

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you know, a red pencil back in
the day, you know, kind of

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working on the hard copy
manuscript and correcting

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individual lines.
And even when I do the line

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editing portion of what I do,
it's still very developmental.

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It's a lot of conversation on
the page.

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And it's different from kind of
going a few tiers down to copy

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it and proofreading.
I don't really do that kind of

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work.
I'm really trying to help people

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develop and execute the best
possible book that reflects what

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they're trying to accomplish.
Yeah, you're.

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Really good at diving into other
people's voices.

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Yeah, right.
Like, I don't.

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It's just it's a superhuman
talent.

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It really is.
Because I've been at full.

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Like I like to tell everyone
that you're like, I've been to a

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Bonnie and I was at the YA one.
Your best book?

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Your best book?
Yeah.

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And the you curate other editors
who are caring and you, I mean,

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there's like I'd like to say to
everyone, there's always one in

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every group.
There's one person who kind of

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grates, but that's part of the
process.

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But you have this ability and
I'm going to quote you.

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I have quotes with a lot of
people I've been talking to in

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ways that you impact me that
maybe you didn't even know.

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But it was at a very early draft
of probably deer dead drunk girl

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who's title you also gave me.
You're like, why aren't you just

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calling it that?
I'm like, I have no idea.

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And then you said, yeah, you
could do that, or you can make

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it better.
And with that, that sweet voice

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of yours and your kind face,
with all the ruthlessness that

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was really behind it, which was
this isn't good enough, Do

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better.
But like in the way that you did

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it, it gave me permission to
actually explore imagination and

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storytelling.
Great.

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Yeah.
So that is a gift that you give

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your clients all the time.
Yeah, I do feel like I've

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cultivated over obviously many
decades that you cited the

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ability to, you know, allow for
almost every writer's sort of

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defensive response or, you know,
justifications.

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And I'm a writer.
I, you know, I I can do that

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myself when other people are
critiquing my work.

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And then I kind of think of it
as gently circling back, you

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know, OK, if they are resisting,
something early on in our

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discussion will go on, and then
I will try to bring them back,

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you know, And obviously, if
they're resistant a few times,

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I'm not going to, you know,
hammer them over the head with

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my thoughts.
But I do think, too, that people

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who come to my workshops and who
hire me for editing are already

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ambitious writers.
It's not a, you know, it's not

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an insignificant expense, the
workshops or the editing.

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It's it typically attracts
people who have been at it for

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some time.
You know, I designed everything

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that I do for that audience for
intermediate, advanced and

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published writers because I felt
like at the time, especially

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when I began obviously a long
time ago, there just wasn't much

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out there for those folks.
It was a lot of stuff aimed for

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beginners and I felt like people
still want to grow as artists,

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you know, they still want to be
pushed and inspired, you know,

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when they're beyond kind of
understanding all the basics and

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then some.
Yeah, I think it's a really

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great way to think about it.
I I remember when I started

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writing young adult fiction, I
had started in essays and ran

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away from that.
Like 'cause that's usually how I

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find a genre by like, well,
that's not working.

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Let me go hide and write a story
over here.

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Yeah, and it was SCBWI, the
Society of Children Writers and

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Book Illustrators.
And at the time I was still

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living in LA, and I was afraid
to go to that, thinking that you

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had to be really good, not
really understanding.

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It's the place for beginners.
It really explains what you need

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to do and how you need to do it
and the rules of writing.

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For me, it was young adult
fiction or middle grade or

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picture books.
I think a lot of women once they

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have kids are like, I'm going to
write a picture book like we all

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thought.
Because you're like, look, I'm

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an expert.
I have one now, but it's never

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what they think it is, right?
It's utterly different.

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But I was like when I went there
and I was like, well, I'm beyond

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like this phase.
Not saying that my writing is

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expertise or whatever, but I was
like, I was hungry to bite into

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more.
I think that's actually how I

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was introduced, you know, to
you.

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I had met Tracy Adams of Adams
Literary, A literary agent, and

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I think it was Henry Neff and a
few others there.

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Yeah.
And they're like, well, Lauren

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and I was like, Lauren, like,
you're like, there's echo in the

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room.
Go to Lauren.

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You should talk to Lauren.
I was like, are you insulting

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me?
Like, you know, like at what

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point, you know, you're like, if
someone says it enough.

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I was like, what are you saying
that I'm not or But I actually

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think it was about thinning of
both personality and desire,

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right.
You really have to have this

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willingness to persevere to get
anywhere in publishing.

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I'm curious because you've had
such a vast knowledge and length

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of time in publishing and you've
ridden several waves, right?

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What's popular, what's not, and
written in them.

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What do you see?
Is like the thing that's

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happening now like I'm?
Serious.

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Yeah.
I mean, I think that you have a

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couple of things, actually, a
few things, but the biggest one

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that comes to mind is the kind
of advent of AI and what kind of

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impact that's going to have on
creativity and the life of

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creators and the world of
publishing.

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I think right now kind of the
same way like I am, I've been at

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it so long that I can remember
when there was a panic about

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mass market paperbacks killing
publishing and then there was a

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hysteria about, you know,
digital books killing

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publishing.
And now there's a, you know, a

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little bit of a hysteria about
AI killing publishing and how,

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you know, we won't need real
creators because AI will just

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generate novels.
And that's, you know, it's

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certainly pretty much like
almost no cost to publishers to

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take on those kinds of books.
But I don't think that will be

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the case.
And we can talk more about that.

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But I think that is the big
thing that's on everybody's mind

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these days.
I you run this six month writing

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program and we have these twice
monthly kind of group get

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togethers and that topics come
up a lot for discussion and

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people ask me about it a lot.
So that's a big thing.

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And you know, I think there's a
lot of sorting out to do.

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What I feel very confident in is
that AI is getting worse in

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terms of generating material,
but there's a lot of stuff to

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talk about.
I've had every single one of my

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published books scraped for AI
without my consent, without any

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kind of compensation.
And every traditionally

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published writer I know can say
the same.

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So that's a, you know, that's a
big issue.

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The other thing is kind of the
rise of self-publishing and you

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see it as a much more viable way
to get your book out than it

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used to be perceived.
And I think it there is less

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kind of discrimination against
people who are self-publishing.

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I think, you know, the, the
field is being kind of leveled.

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The playing field is being
leveled to some extent.

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And what I find is there's a lot
of kind of proselytizing from

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the self-publishing side that
that is the, you know, that that

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is the form that everybody's
journey should take in

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publishing.
And that traditional publishing

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is, you know, terrible.
And you, you know, it's, it's

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there's a weird like salesiness
to it that I don't understand

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why people, you know, don't just
let people choose their, choose

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their own adventure, you know?
That is a good way to put it,

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yeah.
You know, I definitely dip my

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toe into both arenas, right?
And so I find that fascinating.

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I think my frustration with
traditional publishing came

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from, I just found it, it's the
right word, myopic.

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I just found that most
publishers are from New York,

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right?
Like back when I right.

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And so there's this sensibility
and this kind of personality.

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And they decided what being
diverse meant, right?

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And, and they decided what
diverse stories are, and they

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decided who they get to pay
attention to.

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And I was like, you're missing
the whole point of diversity.

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Like, you can move out.
Like move.

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What if you didn't?
What if publishing wasn't just

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housed in a really expensive
city?

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Yeah.
What would that do?

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What would perspective would
that bring?

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So I think my, my frustration
when I was dealing with it at

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the time was like, but there's
but you're, you've become what

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you hate almost.
Yeah.

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And I think that's because, I
mean, I think, you know, we're

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talking about the big 5
captures, you know, because

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there are a lot of really great,
you know, medium size and

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smaller presses that do amazing
work and, you know, are helping

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writers really get their work
out there and are offering

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decent advances.
You know, maybe not the, you

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know, the big six figure ones
that you hear about sometimes,

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but, you know, are really doing
wonderful, wonderful work.

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And they aren't as myopic.
And I do understand that.

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I think what happens too is that
when you're in traditional

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publishing, you know, as a, as
an employee, you know, an

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editor, whatever you're doing,
you know, you're constantly

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having to prove your worth in
the form of the books that

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you've chosen.
And it comes down to a numbers

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game.
You know that, you know, when

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they even if they love a book,
they still have to present like

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a profit and loss statement of
other books that are sort of

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comparable to, you know, the
various departments.

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So, you know, it's a business
And I think it's, you know, even

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if people would love to take on
certain projects, you know that

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they they feel a little
hamstrung sometimes.

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00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,240
And often it's the case that
when they do take a risk, you

225
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,760
know, if they can make a
compelling case, those books pay

226
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,960
off.
But it's really hard to do if

227
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:33,120
you have a string of like,
beautiful gems that sell 2500

228
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,200
copies, you know, it's hard for
you to get a raise and a

229
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,200
promotion, you know, at the
publishing house.

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00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,200
So, you know, I always try to
remind people it's a business.

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00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,280
It's always been a business.
And it's, you know, it's

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00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,920
actually not harder to get
published today than it's ever

233
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,360
been.
It's just that there are more

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00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:55,280
people doing the work of writing
and more people who I think have

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00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,400
an expectation that, you know,
there should be more of an open

236
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,280
door.
And I think that's what leads

237
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:01,760
people to make their own
opportunities and

238
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,400
self-publishing.
It's perfectly valid to to, you

239
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,520
know, to feel all the things you
feel.

240
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,000
You know, it's not inaccurate,
it's wrong.

241
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,040
I mean, I, I honestly, it's like
I, I had an agent, we parted

242
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,480
ways just post COVID.
So it's not something I want to

243
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,080
do.
I'm watching my friends.

244
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,080
I didn't realize how often Agent
turnover actually is with

245
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,000
writers.
Is that something that you talk

246
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,960
about in any of your workshops?
Like the reality of that

247
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,640
relationship.
You know, my, I, I would say I

248
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,680
talk about it much more with my
individual clients who are going

249
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,720
through that or, or planning to
go through that.

250
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,600
You know, my writers, my
workshops are very craft

251
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,120
intensive.
So, you know, we don't get into

252
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,240
that much of the business of
writing.

253
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,320
I, I certainly have put on
webinars about like querying and

254
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,120
synopsis and the pitch package
and that end of the business,

255
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,560
but not on the career level
stuff which I, you know, I think

256
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,480
can be useful.
And you know, we do AQ and A at

257
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,120
the end of every one of our, you
know, breakout novel intense and

258
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,640
people will ask questions about
that.

259
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,920
And I do them with a literary
agent, Donald Moss, who's also

260
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,040
been in publishing even longer
than me.

261
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,200
And we will definitely have
those discussions when asked,

262
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,480
but it's not necessarily a built
in component because we are

263
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,400
really focused on the creation
of amazing books more than you

264
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,000
know.
OK, what happens after you

265
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,520
create all that?
Now that you have something

266
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,200
awesome, let's let's go through
the thing.

267
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,560
Yeah, No, I think it's been.
It was fascinating because I had

268
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,920
talked to a lot of people and
when I was going through the

269
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,680
quarry trenches, it was never an
issue about the writing.

270
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,120
They just didn't know how to
sell what I wanted to write and

271
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:59,240
the stories I wanted to give.
And I was like, oh, OK, OK,

272
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,480
right.
You know, that was that was

273
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,400
like, there's nothing you can do
or say about that.

274
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,680
But that goes back to that it is
a business and the agent's job

275
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,000
is to sell.
Yes, absolutely.

276
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:14,160
Wants to make money, so that is
the antithesis of all the hard

277
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,440
work that goes into a book.
Like, what would you say?

278
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,120
Usually average length It takes
a person to write a book.

279
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:26,680
Nowadays, gosh, I mean truly,
I've had people who have taken a

280
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:31,800
decade and eventually became a
really wonderful success story.

281
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,480
And I've had people who've
written a book in six months.

282
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:41,360
I think the average for, you
know, I would say probably to

283
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,400
get through multiple revisions,
let's say, you know, first draft

284
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,240
and a few revisions, it's
typically, I would say averages

285
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,200
at a couple of years.
I think there are definitely

286
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,000
people who can do it faster, you
know, people who take much more

287
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,560
time.
But if I had to just like

288
00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,720
instinctively pick a number, I
would say that would be about

289
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,440
the sweet spot.
Yeah, I was just saying that

290
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,880
because I think people who don't
write write they don't like.

291
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,640
Sometimes I feel guilty when I
read a book in 2 days.

292
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,079
I did savor every life I'm.
Like, it's like, I don't know

293
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:18,240
how long this paragraph took
them or especially if I really

294
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:19,200
love it.
And I was like, I love it.

295
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,880
Then they then they sold it.
And it took two years after it

296
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,520
got to the publishing house to
come to me.

297
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,319
This is this is five years
minimum of work right here.

298
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:31,240
And I just slurped it down like,
like melting hot, like milk

299
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:32,760
chocolate bars.
Let me get that in.

300
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,080
So yeah.
Yeah, but isn't there some quote

301
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,000
that's like, you know, hard
work, hard writing makes easy

302
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,480
reading or something like that?
I might be making that up.

303
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,160
I like it.
It's probably applicable to

304
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,840
another, you know, profession
entirely, but I think of it.

305
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,040
I mean, that's a compliment to
the, you know, the person who's

306
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,840
booked you're reading that
you're moving through it

307
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,400
quickly.
That means that they're creating

308
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,960
a sense of anticipation and
reason, reason for you to scroll

309
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:00,640
or turn the page or, you know,
whatever it is.

310
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,600
So, you know, I don't think they
girl.

311
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,200
I gotta say I am.
I'm a paperback girl too.

312
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,720
I like, I have lots of hard
covers because I like to support

313
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,480
my authors in the same way I do.
But I have been reading because

314
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,040
I'm lucky enough to being being
receiving Arcs lately.

315
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,280
Yeah, I hate reading on a
screen.

316
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,280
I'm like it.
It annoys me.

317
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,320
First of all, I can't make notes
like it, like what I want, or I

318
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,000
can't circle or I usually when I
love something, I put a little

319
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,800
star and I can go through a
book.

320
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,160
I don't know this.
It's tactile for me.

321
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,880
Yeah.
And the smell of the paper.

322
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,520
I'm really picking.
It out the paper.

323
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,680
Yeah, I understand that very
much.

324
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,400
As somebody who's sort of had
that critique of works of mine

325
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,800
that have been published.
You know, it's really great when

326
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,520
something is well made and has
your work in it compared to

327
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:52,880
something that feels cheaper.
I am completely eclectic.

328
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,760
I will read in every single
form.

329
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,200
I tend to.
First of all, of course, I read

330
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,400
on screens for a living.
That's how I make a big part of

331
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,200
my living.
I would need new glasses often.

332
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,960
I do all the, you know, like I,
but I find like the backlighting

333
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,360
and all that really helps me
with reading sometimes like I'm,

334
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,520
you know, getting there.
I'm getting up there.

335
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:16,400
But I love audio books.
I love, you know, I like, you

336
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,800
know, a paper paperback hard
copy.

337
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,200
But what I also love is that
hard copy books have gotten more

338
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,640
and more popular with the advent
of digital books.

339
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,200
So people are also making that
choice.

340
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,360
Just like, you know, people like
vinyl, even though we had, you

341
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:33,640
know, CDs and, you know, MP
threes and all those things.

342
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,120
So we just, we like a tactile
experience.

343
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:41,000
I went actually into like a
record store not too long ago.

344
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,880
And I was, I was like, I'm
pretty sure these are from my

345
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,960
bedroom as a teenager.
Like I was like, and now they're

346
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,600
$8090.00.
I was like, do you remember,

347
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,360
like, was it, it was Tower
Wreck?

348
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:54,280
Was it Tower?
Yeah, it was Tower Music.

349
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,280
Yeah, yeah.
Sam Goodies was another one.

350
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,640
Yeah.
Yeah.

351
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,320
Well, I'd recently, I mean, it's
been a few years now.

352
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,280
I don't know if you can see.
I have like a turntable and I

353
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,720
had no albums, so I had to go
back and get albums.

354
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,200
And a lot of it was like, oh
gosh, you know.

355
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,160
I used to listen to Prince, Sign
of the times that, you know, in

356
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:12,480
all these forms.
And now I'm going to get the

357
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,200
album.
And, you know, it was kind of

358
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,280
recreating.
Yeah, of course I have a good

359
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,880
amount of new stuff, but it was
also kind of going back and and

360
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,600
recreating the stuff that I
loved from like my teenage

361
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,320
years.
And so, yeah, I get it.

362
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,760
I keep thinking about the sound
that like cleaning the needle

363
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:27,640
makes.
Yeah.

364
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,160
Does that still exist or is it?
Yes.

365
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,080
I mean, I don't, I haven't
really cleaned the needle

366
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:35,040
because I think they're better,
so there's not as much to do

367
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,720
with that.
But yeah, like that first

368
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,360
putting the needle down and that
little crackle, it's like it's

369
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,680
the sound of anticipation, which
I love.

370
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,200
That's what good writing does
too.

371
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,280
Exactly.
So like how?

372
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,160
When is your next Bonnie?
What's coming up for you?

373
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,200
Because you're busy.
Yes, yes.

374
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,280
And I just had a big conference
to celebrate the 30th

375
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,440
anniversary of Free Expressions,
and that was the biggest one

376
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,480
I've done and bringing in like
10 different speakers and you

377
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:09,400
know, that was a big deal.
And so the next one is a virtual

378
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,800
breakout, novel intensive.
Oh, actually, I take it back.

379
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,040
The next one is in September and
it's called Beyond the Breakout.

380
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:24,440
And it's a even smaller group
workshop and, and retreat with

381
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,120
just 12 people.
And we're all going to be in

382
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:30,320
like an Airbnb together.
And it's, you know, it's much

383
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,800
more, it's even obviously
smaller because I found that Don

384
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,160
who's, you know, the key
instructor really does so well

385
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,080
in that small group kind of
settings and he's.

386
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,600
Yeah.
And he's really good at keeping

387
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,000
track of people's stories.
And so it can be really

388
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,320
personalized and really cozy.
And, you know, I, I love, one of

389
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,760
the things I really love is the
community that comes out of what

390
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,640
I do.
So I just love the opportunity

391
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,520
for people to connect with each
other.

392
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,440
So that's the next one in
Branson, MO.

393
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,880
And yeah, I was trying to find
places that weren't Orlando only

394
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,440
because I've done other things
like that here or nearby where

395
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,760
you could find a giant 12
bedroom house to rent.

396
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,240
So, you know, there are only a
few places like that.

397
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,720
So that's coming up.
And then in November, we have a

398
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,400
virtual breakout novel
Intensive, which is obviously a

399
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,880
virtual version of our workshop.
And at some point we were doing

400
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,360
it during the pandemic.
We're kind of replicating the

401
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:37,200
week, but just online because
people were home and you know,

402
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,800
they kind of made sense.
But at some point when people

403
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,600
started kind of going back to
their jobs in their lives, I

404
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,360
thought it might be better if we
spread it out over like 6 weeks.

405
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:49,800
So it's once a week class with
Don and then a supplemental

406
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,760
class.
And that's turned out to be

407
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,680
really popular.
So it's a way that people can

408
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,120
still do it.
It's making my fingers itch.

409
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:03,160
I was like, well, you know, I I
met my critique partner Nikki

410
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,240
through YBB.
Yep, we're still talk like

411
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,360
almost every day.
She is a girl who just likes to

412
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,640
study the craft.
She can tell you everything.

413
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,880
This is her thing.
We have very different styles,

414
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,000
very different ways of doing it,
but very supportive.

415
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:24,040
So you do create this fabulously
interesting, supportive

416
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,600
environment and everyone writes
different genres there.

417
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,560
Of course, it's not just.
One thing.

418
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,080
So I wouldn't want anyone to
think that just because I said

419
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:32,920
young adult, that's all there
is.

420
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,320
It's not everything.
But Don is a trip.

421
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,760
I mean personality wise, he's he
delivers.

422
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,520
So, so does Brenda and you have
Rob.

423
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,720
I mean you, you bring in people
to create like this magic.

424
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:54,160
So I did the Bonnie in in
Oregon.

425
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,720
So like what I also like about
your workshops is you, you

426
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,760
remove us from the world we are
occupying.

427
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:07,240
And anyone who's never done
that, it's really amazing where

428
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,640
your brain will go when you are
not like dealing with what's for

429
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,080
dinner and driving someone or.
Yeah, 100%.

430
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,760
And I think you're in a very
immersive and inspired

431
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,440
environment, so you're picking
up all the creative energy from

432
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,120
other people and you get ideas,
talking to people about their

433
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,920
ideas.
And my whole thing when I

434
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,680
started workshops, because Don
and I started with weekend

435
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,640
seminars, that was, you know,
the first thing I rolled out.

436
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,120
But I knew again, as a writer,
what I wanted to do and I wanted

437
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:42,840
to make sure people were fed on
site.

438
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,600
Because I've been to ones where
you were just kind of on your

439
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,320
own and you missed so many
opportunities for connecting

440
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,800
with people.
You feel weird and insecure

441
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,680
about, you know, where you're
going if you don't know the

442
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,720
area.
And that, you know, when we did

443
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,200
the week long ones that they
were people were in private

444
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,880
rooms and could be comfortable.
You know, I again, it's, you

445
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,400
know I design a lot of things
around my own standards and

446
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,320
values, right?
You don't.

447
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,880
Skip that's what I'm saying.
That's super important.

448
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,360
I remember like even walking and
it was like cold and raining.

449
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:16,480
Shockingly, it was in.
In Hood River, OR.

450
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,560
Yeah, but I was walking, and I
was walking by all these Birch

451
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,120
trees and all I just saw in
their knots was like eyeballs.

452
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:25,960
I just felt like I was watching.
I took this whole series of

453
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,760
being watched, and then that
idea of being watched found its

454
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,480
way into my work.
Just.

455
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,280
Oh, yeah.
Or I also went for a walk and

456
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,640
there was like a bunch of like
homeless people, like living

457
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,760
under a bridge there.
And like even that experience of

458
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:41,680
like, you know, where do you
look?

459
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,120
Where do you not look?
I was like you.

460
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,280
Just your senses become
heightened in an observatory and

461
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,440
experiential way.
And then that finds its way onto

462
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,560
the page in a way that, you
know, it's amazing to grind

463
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,840
every day or get your word ass
and chair time and do that, but

464
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,840
also leaving the familiar.
Yes, I think it's so important.

465
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,720
Yeah, yeah.
And being pushed, you know, I

466
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,680
think during the class, it's a
very generative class.

467
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,800
You know, it's not, you know,
when I'm a teacher, I'm often

468
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,400
very nuts and bolts and
teaching, you know, conceptual

469
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,040
stuff and taking people in a
really, you know, concrete way

470
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,400
through whatever aspects of
writing.

471
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,320
And Don is, you know, more kind
of abstract and you know, he's

472
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:31,280
really pushing you to do writing
in class and to do exercises

473
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,800
where you're exploring and
there's no, you know, there's no

474
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,400
right or wrong.
You know, it's really, it's and

475
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,720
it's also very individual to
your work.

476
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,960
So, you know, you can kind of go
at your own pace.

477
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,760
You can take on what you want to
take on.

478
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,840
You can write or you can just
take notes.

479
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,120
You know, you can do it
different ways.

480
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,840
And I wanted that kind of fluid
experience, so.

481
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,520
It's super generative.
I know that.

482
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,560
I've been running away from it
because I just don't like

483
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,240
anything.
I had enough to give it that

484
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,960
much time and attention, which
is honestly being a bit chicken

485
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,720
if let's just be 100 right
there.

486
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,240
But we, we have those moments
where we're more prolific or

487
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,480
like your life needs different
parts need more attention.

488
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,280
But if anyone's listening and
you have a story idea or you

489
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,920
have a book that you've polished
3 times and you don't know why

490
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,320
you're not getting the
attention, these kinds of

491
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,040
workshops make you see it
different.

492
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,080
I think Nikki and I always quote
Don's.

493
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:29,680
I think it's Don.
If it's you, I apologize.

494
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:30,240
It's one.
Of you.

495
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,080
You're you're a dual group,
right?

496
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,520
You're like a package deal.
Absolutely.

497
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,000
It's that scene where he tells
you to go beyond the obvious.

498
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,200
So it's that car accident thing
that he always talks about.

499
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,000
So your characters in a car
accident, what's the first thing

500
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,960
they see?
Forget that.

501
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,680
What's the second thing they
see?

502
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,920
Forget that too, everyone knows
those are the tropes.

503
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,160
Now what's the third thing?
And I think he always used to

504
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,440
talk about like the hula girl
and the skirt.

505
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,040
Wiggling, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

506
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:05,680
So that I use that often while
editing my own work, you have,

507
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,240
but that's way past the process
of getting all the out.

508
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,560
Yeah, yeah.
And he also is really great

509
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,440
about talking in that, you know,
that same context about the

510
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,320
emotional craft and looking for
the, you know, he calls them

511
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,000
like third level emotions.
So, you know, and I think, yeah,

512
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,840
there's a lot of cross
pollination between Don and me

513
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,880
at this point because we've been
doing work together for 25 years

514
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,560
and I've known him longer.
And yeah, but what I would also

515
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:40,040
say is, you know, I think people
also feel like they have to come

516
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,720
with something that's really
polished.

517
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,120
And actually, I think, and I've
been saying this forever, that

518
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,800
it's a really great workshop for
coming with just like, ideas on

519
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,880
cocktail napkins, because also
you're less closed off to

520
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,400
development ideas.
You know, if you come with your

521
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,360
third draft, I find this is a
lot of years of experience now.

522
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,200
You have to be a really fearless
kind of writer and the kind of

523
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,160
writer who loves tearing things
down to the stud studs and

524
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,560
starting over, and a lot of
people aren't, and it's very

525
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,600
human and understandable.
So you're like, you know, and

526
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,440
most people aren't.
And most people aren't.

527
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,160
And, and you know, we all sort
of want to, you know, with

528
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,920
writing, it's attractive to take
the path of least resistance

529
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,280
sometimes.
So if you come with more of an

530
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,680
idea of the book, an idea of
your characters, and all of the

531
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,680
workshop is about generating
ideas for the story, I think it

532
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,160
can be really valuable.
And so I try to I.

533
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,760
Could come with my memoir.
You absolutely good.

534
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,520
We have people come with memoir.
I'm hiding from that one.

535
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,960
I got so many post its.
So I get it, Yeah.

536
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,920
And it's a little bit of, I
mean, we do have, you know, it's

537
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,600
we've definitely had probably a
couple dozen people who've come

538
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,120
with memoirs, you know, and some
of the lingo, you know, you need

539
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,720
to kind of translate in your
mind and think of yourself as a

540
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,800
protagonist and, you know, all
those things.

541
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,680
But I find it's been, you know,
pretty fertile for people.

542
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,320
But I think that's even a good
way to do it, to take myself out

543
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,760
of it.
Or I could just do what I always

544
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,120
do and it'll spark a new idea
and I'll just run away from the

545
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,600
memoir like I have for 10 years
and just been like.

546
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,080
We'll have to talk about that,
but maybe not in the middle of.

547
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,280
Here.
Well, not right now.

548
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,760
Yeah.
I have three books in draft.

549
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,120
They're like, so people are
like, what are you writing?

550
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,440
And like, what's up with this?
And I was like, oh, like, so

551
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,160
dear dead drunk girl.
I still.

552
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,160
I love it.
But when I went through the

553
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,880
process of getting my agent and
had seven R and Rs and then she

554
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,120
had me do a pass.
So I'm sure that was confusing.

555
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,240
Yeah, because it's not my book
anymore, right?

556
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,880
But I was like, well, I'm, I'm,
I was like, I'm willing, I'm

557
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,000
playing the game, whatever,
whatever.

558
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,680
And back in the day, edgy girls,
right?

559
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,080
And my girl was kind of edgy
anyway cuz she's dear dead drunk

560
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,720
girl anyway, right.
But what my agent loved about

561
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,360
the book in the day, she's like,
I love the sister relationship.

562
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:02,720
This is what the story is all
about.

563
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,960
But the provision she made me do
was plot.

564
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,840
That wasn't ever part of the
book.

565
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,440
And so I had to take it back.
And then I read it.

566
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,160
I was like, what is this pile of
poo?

567
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,000
Because I didn't like it?
And then I was like, do I have

568
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,480
the energy to make it what I
want it to be again?

569
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,440
And then whatever, I wasn't
sure.

570
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,800
So I sat on that for over a year
and then I did a revision.

571
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,920
And it was so exhausting because
I'm not the writer I was when I

572
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,320
started that.
Yeah.

573
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,440
And how much revision do you do?
And like, now I'm like, well,

574
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,200
what time period do I put it in?
And these are all the reasons

575
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,560
why I'm going slow.
But I think it was like, what

576
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,480
month are we in while we're.
Retiring it's only.

577
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,000
July, I think four months ago.
It was right before I left for

578
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:54,240
Korea.
It I, I figured out the sauce,

579
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,440
right?
I was like this, this is this is

580
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,400
the thing that will make me fix
it.

581
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,040
And then I had to like let go of
some darlings that I had worked

582
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,800
back in.
But it, it will be what I want.

583
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,600
I just, I think it'll be a
completing it for me.

584
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,800
Like I have to not even worry
about putting out in the world.

585
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,720
It was just I I wanted to be
about sisters in love and

586
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,000
redemption.
Yeah, I love that.

587
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,120
Not the plot driven crazy psycho
girl that she became.

588
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,920
So I talk.
I've asked other people, like

589
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,800
when do you walk away from
something?

590
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,080
Do you ever tell anyone to walk
away?

591
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,120
Do you just like, what would you
tell someone?

592
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,200
Yeah.
I mean, I think that it can be

593
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,160
useful to walk away knowing that
you don't have to permanently

594
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,000
walk away.
And it sounds like that's some

595
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,680
of your experience.
And also, I think, you know,

596
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,520
when you're talking, I'm also
thinking about how the market is

597
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,240
different in terms of that
crossover world between YA and

598
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,160
adult and how the expectations
of what a young adult character

599
00:32:54,160 --> 00:33:00,120
is have changed, I think, but.
I'm putting everyone back at the

600
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,320
age I originally had on Mary,
17.

601
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,600
He's gonna be 23.
Like everyone's like, well, you

602
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,160
can't do that.
You can't like, but can't.

603
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,360
But they're dead.
Actually, yeah, they're dead.

604
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:09,760
You.
Could do whatever you want.

605
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,240
You absolutely do and you could
do whatever you want even if

606
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,760
they were alive, although that
would not that would defeat the

607
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,160
purpose.
Of the book.

608
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:22,640
But yeah, I mean, I don't ever
tell people to just shell

609
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,240
something like I, I don't think
that's my place.

610
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,720
My place is to help support them
and give them all the tools

611
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,480
possible to craft a book that is
going to represent what they

612
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,880
wanted to represent and
hopefully sell if that's their

613
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,040
ambition.
I think everything is fixable,

614
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,360
but I think it can take a lot of
time and craft study and work.

615
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,160
You know, I don't think
everything is necessarily

616
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,800
immediately fixable.
And again, I'm lucky because,

617
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,920
you know, I work with people.
It's very rare.

618
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,600
Like I wouldn't actually even
take on an editing client who

619
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,720
wasn't pretty proficient because
I feel like that would be unfair

620
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,240
to them.
Like, you know, a more kind of

621
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,120
newcomer, they're not going to,
they're going to be so

622
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,080
discouraged and not know what to
do with a 35 page single spaced

623
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,360
evaluation, You know, like
that's going to overwhelm them.

624
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,679
It overwhelms people anyway.
You know, it's even more skilled

625
00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:22,040
people.
So I don't think it's my, you

626
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,199
know, job to tell people and
people request it.

627
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,639
You know, not infrequently will
they be like, will you tell me

628
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:28,520
if I should, you know, not quit
my day job?

629
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,480
And I will say no, like I'm here
to help you quit your day job.

630
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,239
Eventually, that's what you want
to do.

631
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,920
But I will tell you everything I
think you need to do to get your

632
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,840
work where it needs to be.
You know, I'm not pulling

633
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,000
punches.
I'm obviously, you know, I try

634
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,080
to be very kind and supportive
and a cheerleader for their

635
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,400
work.
Excuse me.

636
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:56,760
But you also just never know.
Like I've had people start out

637
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,920
very raw, you know, especially
through some of my like writing

638
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:03,400
programs and then made these
tremendous leaps, like

639
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,320
surprising leaps.
And I've had people come in who

640
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,040
were, you know, this close to
being publishable level, but

641
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,600
they were resistant to the point
that they never really

642
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,480
progressed.
And so, you know, like, I love

643
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,720
that you just never know.
And so it's my job to just help

644
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:24,960
people like along the path not
to, you know, tell people to

645
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,360
give up their creative dreams.
Like that would that's very bad

646
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,280
karma in my mind.
And I would, you know, like, I

647
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,280
just, I hate that idea.
And I hate that idea of like

648
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,080
brutal honesty, you know, like
I'm a brutal critiquer.

649
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,240
Like I, you know, that's not
what people respond to.

650
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,520
I got a brutal critique from
someone I met in one of your

651
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,280
workshops.
She literally wrote blah, blah,

652
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,680
blah on board.
I was like, oh, because I know

653
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:50,000
you like.
What was that?

654
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,080
Why did you have to do that?
It's a first draft.

655
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,440
I'm clearly stuck, which is what
I sent when I gave you the

656
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:57,840
papers.
I'm stuck.

657
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,320
Yeah.
And how did that make you feel?

658
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,240
It didn't make you feel like
energized to keep.

659
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:02,880
Working.
No.

660
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,640
Maybe you want to like, throat
puncher.

661
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,480
Honestly, yeah.
I'm a big baby.

662
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,320
Like, I often admit this when I
first get notes.

663
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,560
I never read it really.
What's on the page.

664
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,920
I just real I, and it takes me a
day or two to process.

665
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,840
Then I read it again.
I'm like, Oh my God, that's what

666
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,760
you said.
You tell me I'm just whatever.

667
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,760
And then probably one of my
weaknesses as a writer is that I

668
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,240
wish I could go faster.
Yeah, right.

669
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:31,440
Like, I know that I need time
away because if I'm working on

670
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,480
something, then I get too close.
I know something's wrong, but I,

671
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,000
I don't have the ability to
evaluate it, to know what to do

672
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,360
to fix it.
So that's.

673
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,400
Why people like me exist, you
know, Because nobody really

674
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,080
does, you know, but like.
Six months away sometimes sounds

675
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:51,200
forever to me, or a year away
sometimes like sounds forever.

676
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,600
But it's necessary to gain
perspective and then take

677
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,240
whatever you have learned or
hopefully you learn.

678
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,360
Right.
And I have said this a lot that

679
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,440
you know, with people who are,
you know, let's say pre

680
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,280
publication, if you know that's
where they are, you know, I'll

681
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,120
say like take your time because
once your e-book is accepted and

682
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,440
you're in that publishing, you
know, cycle and the pipeline and

683
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,160
they're looking for another book
from you and you're trying to

684
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,760
write book 2 while you're
promoting book 1 and all that

685
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,000
stuff.
This this is the only stage in

686
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,280
the process where you have the
luxury of time and perspective

687
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,840
in a different way than you do
once you are kind of swept into

688
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,000
the whole machine.
Yeah, exactly.

689
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,640
Yeah, are.
You writing anything of your own

690
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,760
right now?
I am.

691
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:49,000
I've had my own fallow period.
So I mean, obviously, you know,

692
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,000
I write things for a living in a
way, and I'm writing craft

693
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,600
articles and all that.
I have been really interested in

694
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,760
an anthology that I'm sort of
slowly crafting short fiction

695
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,560
having to do with kind of a
speculative treatment of the

696
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,960
issue of reproductive rights.
So I just had a story.

697
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,280
It so happened that I had this
idea.

698
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,240
I've had it for a couple of
years now and have had a lot of

699
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:19,960
ideas, and I'm kind of poking
around with it.

700
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,560
And there was an anthology
produced by this literary

701
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,960
magazine called Hypertext, and
they were actually looking for

702
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,560
stories that literally fit right
into this theme.

703
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,480
And so I made myself like write
one of the stories like fully

704
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,040
and sent it off and got it
accepted.

705
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,880
And the anthology just came out
literally like a couple weeks

706
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,520
ago.
But I just kind of finding my

707
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,400
way around, I have so many ideas
for stories and, and then I have

708
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,560
another idea for a series that
I'm again, just kind of playing

709
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,280
with.
But I, you know, I had to write

710
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,520
8 books in five years between
ghost writing and my, you know,

711
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,600
romantic comedies.
Yeah.

712
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,160
And I think I just burned out,
you know, and that in addition

713
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,640
to editing and teaching and
putting on workshops and all of

714
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,160
that.
So I'm just kind of like dipping

715
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,320
my toe, you know, back in the
water again.

716
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,720
I love that you know this one.
I think I started noodling or

717
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:23,840
writing essays again, which I
had.

718
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,640
I was good like that used to be
a way I I sold them a lot and

719
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,200
then I just kind of stopped and
then just like everything right?

720
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,000
You just there's a season with
everything.

721
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,640
But I'm going back to that.
I'm going back to memoir and I

722
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,280
still love short stories.
I just find it harder to kind of

723
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,640
place like I have the beginning
of a short story that started in

724
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,040
a workshop.
I mean like maybe decades ago

725
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,680
and it was, it's very me.
So it's very magically,

726
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,000
realistically bizarro, but
basically a girl is walking

727
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,760
around and she's holding, I
think I added vampires at one

728
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,160
point, but basically she has AI.
Think I did.

729
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,880
Where did I send that?
I can't even remember that but

730
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,920
basically the girl walks around
with a bowling pin but she keeps

731
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,360
it wrapped like a baby.
Interesting.

732
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,640
Yeah, I love that.
I mean, I'm also so.

733
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,760
Bizarro, right?
Yeah, but I love it.

734
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,560
And I mean, like all the ideas I
have for this anthology are, you

735
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,200
know, horror kind of inspired or
science fiction inspired.

736
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,240
You know, they're not just our
normal world because that's, I

737
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:35,960
also love more speculative
things and magical realism and

738
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,200
horror and, you know, all those
genres.

739
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,640
Yeah.
And I do find that I have had

740
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,360
this cycle in life of getting
burned out on long form fiction

741
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,800
writing and going to short
fiction because, you know, it's

742
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,240
gratifying to finish things and
then to also be able to send

743
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:55,480
them out and see if anybody
wants to do anything with them.

744
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,000
Like it's, you know, it's
incredibly satisfying.

745
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,720
You're just making me remember.
I'm like, Oh my God, I've

746
00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:04,760
finished that story.
And like, I had a vampire go

747
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,280
after her because he was like,
why are you walking around with

748
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:08,720
a dead baby?
Because I don't feel anything

749
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:12,040
from this baby, right?
And then she stabs him with a

750
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,920
hidden knife.
And I don't know, like it was so

751
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,640
bizarrely me.
I love it now.

752
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,080
I'm gonna have to go dig through
my like my archives.

753
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,760
The bullet pin like opens up to
have a stake in it.

754
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,400
Yes, it did.
That's.

755
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,480
What you want, that's what you
want, obviously.

756
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,720
Well, that's a great reversal.
See, you make me immediately

757
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:28,040
want to start like
brainstorming.

758
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,200
Like what a good reversal of
expectation that she's been

759
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,280
trying to lure the vampire the.
Whole she was.

760
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,240
Yeah, that was it.
I love it.

761
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,440
Did I send it?
You know, so I'm gonna.

762
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:39,360
Have no.
But, you know, story.

763
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:39,960
Story.
Yeah.

764
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,000
It's obviously this is Lawrence
magic.

765
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,520
See now you know how she does
she goes into this is Hollys

766
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,800
brain.
Of course she's gonna have a

767
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,160
dagger in that thing and killed
the.

768
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,240
Vampire.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

769
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,120
I always say I'm, it's kind of
like I'm Rain Man.

770
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:56,800
Like I have one highly developed
muscle and that's it and it's

771
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,040
story.
And I'm lucky that I could also

772
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:01,920
use that for a living, because
it would really be a bummer if

773
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:03,760
that's all I could do and I
couldn't do it.

774
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,120
But it's also like quite you
amazing.

775
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,080
It's like, I know you weren't I
when you were doing all of that,

776
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,040
I was like, you know, watching
peripheral.

777
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,680
I was like, I don't know how you
do that.

778
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,680
And then you are editing books
like people I'm people are

779
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,600
sending you 80, you know, 5.
And how long is an average book

780
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,120
now?
Yeah, 85,000 words.

781
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,920
Is that the number?
80 yeah, somewhere around 1985

782
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,720
yeah, I.
Have to tell you, I prefer my

783
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:29,480
books around 7075.
Yeah, that's what I write.

784
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,760
I write up to there and like
that's just like a good nibble.

785
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,880
Yeah, yeah.
And it really so depends on the

786
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,160
scope of the story, Like when I
was, you know, briefly A

787
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,440
literary agent, which, you know,
was not for me.

788
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,360
Not for you.
Not for me and I admire people

789
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,280
who it's for.
But but I realized I did it

790
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:51,240
because I wanted to be an
advocate for people and help on

791
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:54,040
the editing end of things.
And that's what I, of course,

792
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,280
was already doing for a living.
So it kind of got in the way of

793
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,160
my doing what I really feel good
at.

794
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,560
But what I would notice is
sometimes people would query

795
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:06,760
with a story that they would say
was 130,000 words and the

796
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,280
expression of the plot was the
most simplistic plot you could

797
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,280
imagine.
And so immediately I would just

798
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,640
be afraid of what, you know,
like you don't need 130,000

799
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,920
words to tell the story of, you
know, two teenagers stuck

800
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,800
overnight in a mall, let's say,
or whatever.

801
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,680
So that already is, you know,
putting me on high alert that

802
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,280
somebody's overwriting.
So I think 130,000 word book can

803
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,520
be very well earned if it has
that scope and that sort of more

804
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,400
epic feel and bigger public
stakes and, you know, all that

805
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,560
stuff.
But some stories need to be

806
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,440
75,000 words, some stories need
to be 90, you know, etcetera.

807
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,200
I know someone's worrying now
and they're just futzing with

808
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,360
word count to get because the
agents like I'm looking for

809
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,320
this.
And I was like, do you need to

810
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,280
do that?
Like do you actually?

811
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:54,880
But I guess she's playing the
game.

812
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,640
So I'll, I'm just like, yeah, do
what you need.

813
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:57,640
Sure.
Yeah.

814
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,800
And I think it really depends
on, you know, if it's the

815
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,720
difference between 89,000 and
91,000, I don't think anybody

816
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:07,920
cares, you know what I mean?
But if it's the difference

817
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,680
between 89,000 and 129,000 and
it's a genre that doesn't tend

818
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,960
to take that length of project
on, then yeah, like, but you

819
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,520
have to examine the book and,
you know, usually make bigger

820
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,640
changes than just lateral little
edits, I think for.

821
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,760
You as an agent, you're, you are
too developmental.

822
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,720
Like you can see the potential
in so much yeah, which is just

823
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:32,720
hard work.
I also, I think, you know,

824
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:36,000
people would be interesting to
know that a lot of agents aren't

825
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,120
editorial and they are really
taking on projects that they

826
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,560
know that they can sell because
they have relationships with

827
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,560
specific editors.
So, but don't, don't believe, I

828
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,160
think I ran into this a bit, not
myself because my ego is

829
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,960
definitely not that big.
But they think, Oh, my book is

830
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,480
done and they they're not
prepared for that editorial

831
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,360
letter that will humble them
that comes back from the

832
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,520
publishing house.
And yes, I was just talking to

833
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,040
somebody who's transitioning
from publishing and they wanted

834
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,400
to pick my brain about
freelancing and just, you know,

835
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,680
we were talking about sort of
comparing what their editorial

836
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,880
letter would look like and what
my evaluation would look like.

837
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,360
And a typical editorial letter
might be 6 or 7, you know, 10

838
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,000
pages.
And my typical evaluation is 3

839
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,160
times, you know, the length of
that because by the time those

840
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,400
books get to that person, they
are, you know, further along

841
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,640
than the people who come to me
often.

842
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,000
But also the expectation is
different.

843
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,400
And what they're trying to do is
different.

844
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,400
I'm trying to help people
develop their writing for their

845
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,080
whole career, you know, and
they're, you know, kind of more

846
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,240
book focused.
But yeah, I remember when I was

847
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:47,800
agenting that, you know, one of
my agents, Joshua Adams, was

848
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,920
like, you know, basically like,
you know, it's OK to take on a

849
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,600
book that's ready to go, Lolo,
You know, you don't have to take

850
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,240
on.
The whole thing is I, I know

851
00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:58,880
what his voice sounds like.
Everybody.

852
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,560
It's.
That was so him, yes.

853
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,320
So it's true and I, I just had
to go back to what I really feel

854
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,280
good at and, you know, enjoy
doing.

855
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,440
Yeah, that's good.
So I would love to go into how

856
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,280
you connected with the Ted Talks
and welcome to my Ted talk,

857
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,120
which is the joke in my family
that we thank you for coming to

858
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,000
my Ted Talk.
And then I always say again,

859
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,280
because I got to do a Ted X
talk, which is not the same as a

860
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,360
Ted Talk, just whatever.
But like, how did that happen?

861
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:33,680
Well, that is, you know, I
didn't, I, I don't think anybody

862
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,280
would want me to do an actual
Ted Talk, but I got that job

863
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:42,480
because it's kind of like a,
it's actually starts with an

864
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,080
SCBWI.
But basically I had been on a

865
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,600
path where I was being brought
into ghostwrite a lot of

866
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:56,280
projects that were re imaginings
and repackagings of adult

867
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,320
memoirs for a young adult
audience.

868
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,680
Like that somewhat became my
sweet spot.

869
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:06,240
So I started out doing one for,
I guess I shouldn't say to, I

870
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:07,680
mean, he, he's acknowledged that
I've worked on.

871
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,440
So a former Navy SEAL who became
a governor who became not a

872
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,760
governor.
And it was taking one of his

873
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,520
memoirs and, you know, really
reworking his material, but also

874
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,800
adding new material.
And I worked on a few projects

875
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,600
like that.
And so, you know, the Welcome to

876
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:29,880
my Ted Talk is a reimagining of
a book by Chris Anderson, who's

877
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:35,760
the, you know, director of Ted
Talks that was about public

878
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,080
speaking for adults and they
wanted to do one that was about

879
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:44,280
public speaking for kids.
So they brought me into work on

880
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,960
that.
And I, you know, again, it was

881
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,280
reworking some of his material
finding, you know, obviously

882
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,600
they have such a great history
of speakers that they can refer

883
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,480
to.
So trying to find more speakers

884
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,200
that would be relevant to the
younger audience.

885
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,960
So kind of reworking those and
and then adding completely fresh

886
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,960
material.
So, you know, we work together

887
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,200
kind of virtually.
But yeah, that was just a

888
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,960
project that, you know, it kind
of became something that I was

889
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,360
known to be good at.
And so and I really love that

890
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:21,080
book.
Actually.

891
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,200
I feel like I think it's one of
my favorite of those ghost

892
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,120
writing projects.
Not really ghost writing because

893
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,080
I'm on the cover.
So it's, you know, Co writing, I

894
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,800
guess.
So, yeah.

895
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,960
It's it's just that he, his
books had been published by the

896
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,640
same publisher who would use me
for other projects.

897
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,640
So they thought of me.
I love that.

898
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:40,520
Yeah, me too.
I.

899
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,000
Love that.
So so have you ever done any

900
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,840
work with like anyone who does
like audio books at all like

901
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,640
that?
Like I've never honestly

902
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:54,920
listened to a single audio book,
but I've I see a lot of

903
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,960
narrators online and I'm like
fascinated.

904
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,200
So do you ever work with anyone
like that at all or is that it?

905
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:02,840
Hasn't.
Color Lane.

906
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,360
Yeah, it's a whole other.
I mean, the way that I have, I

907
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,480
wouldn't say I've worked with
them, but you know, when the

908
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,280
audio books of the three
romantic comedies were, you

909
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,080
know, being produced, you know,
my Co writer Veronica and I got

910
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,400
to choose the the narrators and
you know, like that was the

911
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,120
amount of input we had.
It's.

912
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:23,880
Pretty good though.
It was great.

913
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,920
And I mean, you know, we had
three each to, you know, it

914
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,520
wasn't like, oh, they gave us.
Yeah, yeah, 20 options.

915
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,320
And we, you know, like the I
don't necessarily love the male

916
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:37,960
narrator for the third book like
that.

917
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,600
That's the one that was a little
bit of a misfire.

918
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,120
But the first books, it was such
a revelation, actually, to

919
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,320
listen to my book as an audio
book and hear it and, like,

920
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,600
experience it in such a wholly
different way.

921
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,920
It was so exciting.
And I would have these moments

922
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,600
where I would be so swept up and
think that person said this line

923
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,480
better than I thought it when I
wrote it.

924
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,800
Like they gave it an
interpretation that wasn't even

925
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,040
my interpretation, but it was
like it added something.

926
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,840
And so that's a thrill.
But I haven't like, I'm open to

927
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,000
any of that kind of work.
And I, you know, I do love

928
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,040
audiobooks.
I like to switch around.

929
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,760
Like I like to be reading
something, then go in my car and

930
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,320
listen, you know, pick it up and
listen to it and then go back

931
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,680
and read it.
So it's really cool.

932
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,160
I mean, that's a cool new
function, you know that I'm.

933
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,600
Wondering if I that would be
safe for me like it's.

934
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,720
Like but you just drift off
while you're driving it just end

935
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:33,600
up wrapped.
Around a tree getting gross.

936
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,400
I'm like, it's already bad
enough that I'm trying to sing

937
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,000
and dance in my car.
Like my mom was in my car once.

938
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,960
And she's like my whole life.
I'm wondering what makes you so

939
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,240
mad when you drive?
Like, what are you talking

940
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:45,600
about?
She's like the way you tap your

941
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,200
thumb.
I'm like, this is the beat of

942
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:52,040
what I'm listening to.
She's like, oh, that makes a lot

943
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:53,600
more sense.
That's funny.

944
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,720
We should we also, in a separate
conversation, should unpack

945
00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:01,680
that.
Like my my daughter is a

946
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,520
teenager.
My favorite thing to do is

947
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,920
embarrass her in the when she's
in the car with me now because I

948
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,560
only you know she'll be leaving
soon.

949
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,760
Parental rite of passage, Yeah.
Correct.

950
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,920
So I forget what song was it
yesterday?

951
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,040
I get her.
I think it was like one of the

952
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,040
songs I do a Zumba class, like
in a Zumba.

953
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,120
So I was like, and she's like
mom and I'm like mom.

954
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:27,120
There's a new guy in the car
next to Yeah I.

955
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,120
Add a vowel to every word.
Mom.

956
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,400
But I think for me, it's fun.
She laughs, but she's bright

957
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,080
red.
Love it.

958
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:43,720
I think that I think I would
forget to turn if I was

959
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:46,040
listening to a book.
Yeah, especially.

960
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,680
Yeah, right.
That is what I'm worried about.

961
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,760
But I can do that with just my
own thoughts.

962
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,240
I don't need.
It's not necessarily just the

963
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:54,760
distraction of a book.
It can be music, it can be just

964
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,600
getting in my head.
So I don't find it's a huge

965
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,880
material difference, but I think
it's a valid concern.

966
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:05,400
All right, well now I have a new
thing to try which makes me very

967
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,120
excited.
So if you were gonna give like 1

968
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,360
developmental tip, I should also
say, and we'll say this in a few

969
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,800
more minutes when we wrap up,
but Lauren, if you join free

970
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,960
expressions like e-mail list,
which I am on, they give

971
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,320
prompts.
Yeah.

972
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:23,600
Like for nothing.
It's free, people.

973
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,680
It's free and.
And craft.

974
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,200
Articles.
They're awesome, so thanks

975
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:30,440
there.
But if you were going to give a

976
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,760
developmental tip that is
universal for most people who

977
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,160
come towards you, what what,
what thought would you give them

978
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:39,480
while they're writing or
editing?

979
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,000
Can I give 2?
Yeah.

980
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:43,760
Can I give 12?
No, just kidding.

981
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:50,400
I So the first one is to really
understand what character agency

982
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:55,560
means that it's helpful.
This isn't like a, you know, it

983
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,040
doesn't apply to every single
book, but it's very helpful to

984
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:03,400
have your character have the
will and ability to accomplish

985
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,800
things in a story and to want
things and to come into the

986
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,880
story wanting things and to try
to be the agent of change and

987
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,160
progress in a story.
I think too often people start

988
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,920
with a character who is
victimized by circumstances and

989
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:22,360
kind of inert.
So I have, you know, call

990
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,040
webinars and character agency,
but I think it's a really

991
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,240
important concept to understand
and embrace.

992
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,360
And the other one I think is
understanding scene structure.

993
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,080
This is also another big, big
topic of mine.

994
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:40,760
I love to talk about it, but to
understand how novels or memoirs

995
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:46,200
are organized into this
developmental unit called scenes

996
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,920
and understanding what a scene
is built around, which is,

997
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:54,440
again, kind of to go with the
issue of agency, a character who

998
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,360
is trying to make something
happen and meeting obstacles.

999
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:58,880
And there are a lot of other
parameters.

1000
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:00,680
I won't, you know, give the
whole lesson.

1001
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,200
But those two things,
understanding agency and

1002
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,320
understanding scene structure
will take writers so far.

1003
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:12,560
Like, it really will help them
create what you want to create

1004
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,160
in a reader, which is
anticipation and investment and

1005
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,800
to help us feel like we're in
good hands as readers.

1006
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,680
So those are my 2.
That's a really good one because

1007
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,200
I know my first drafts like I'm
always writing my way into a

1008
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,080
story.
I know this about myself and I

1009
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,880
try not to judge it.
I'm like, all right, 25 pages

1010
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:32,400
that will get me to where I need
to go.

1011
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:33,200
It's.
Exactly.

1012
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:38,200
Yeah, but also, I used to have
the habit of not having my main

1013
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,760
character make a choice.
Yep, right.

1014
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,320
So the world's acting on them,
but it's makes a huge difference

1015
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,440
that the world can act on them,
but then they choose what to do.

1016
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,000
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And if you just have characters,

1017
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,920
you know, that ends up with what
we call like episodic fiction.

1018
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,480
You know, if you only have a
character who is only moved by

1019
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,680
things that happen to them,
other people's agendas,

1020
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,800
circumstances befalling them,
then as readers, we get anxious

1021
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,880
because we don't know when the
next thing's going to come

1022
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:11,760
along.
But if a character is trying to

1023
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:15,360
make things happen, we know we
know that we're along for that

1024
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,000
ride and we're going to
participate when they're trying

1025
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,320
to make things happen.
And of course, you don't want

1026
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,880
them to succeed that often
because that would end the

1027
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,120
story.
But, you know, it just creates

1028
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,560
so much more momentum.
And again, like that

1029
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,120
anticipation is, you can't
really understate how important

1030
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:35,680
that is.
We read because we're

1031
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,880
anticipating something every
moment along the way and kind of

1032
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,480
the ultimate anticipation of
where the story is going to end

1033
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,920
up.
Yeah, for sure.

1034
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,080
It's one thing I think I've
always tried to fix in my

1035
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,080
opening of Dear Dead Drunk Girl.
And I figured it out and I was

1036
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,960
like, it's just like a word.
I just had to like change a word

1037
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,800
or a sentence or maybe the rules
of my whatever.

1038
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,160
Like I did, I unpacked all of
that.

1039
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,120
I was like, Oh yeah, I need a
different rule.

1040
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,960
I mean, you even said to me
once, this is the rule I just

1041
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:05,520
figured out, and you won't
remember because it's been

1042
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:06,880
forever.
And if you do, you could just

1043
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,720
not pretend.
Yeah, but like, her bar is

1044
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:13,560
covered in pictures, right?
But I change what the pictures

1045
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,280
are.
You're like, you have the setup,

1046
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,960
but there's no payoff.
And I was like, yes, I know, I

1047
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:23,320
know I have this flaw, but I
never had an answer that

1048
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,320
satisfied me.
I was so busy satisfying the R&R

1049
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,880
or making this.
But I've had the opportunity now

1050
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,800
to satisfy myself.
Yeah.

1051
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:38,320
And now I'm like, yay, OK, I'm
gonna have to finish this book

1052
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:38,880
already.
It's.

1053
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,160
Yeah, I mean, I I've always
loved it.

1054
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,400
And also I still feel such a
kinship with otters as a result.

1055
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,960
I have two stuck animals.
I have them.

1056
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,760
I have two plushies on my
bookcase that are otters in

1057
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,360
honor.
Literally anytime I see a meme

1058
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,120
with otters like you come to
mind I always like I have to

1059
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,000
stop myself from forwarding them
or just being like look another

1060
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,600
Otter.
Yeah, you should.

1061
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:02,920
You should send them.
I went to go.

1062
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:04,920
I went to an event and not an
event.

1063
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:06,720
I was at a zoo at one point.
I was like, Oh my God, The kind

1064
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:08,720
you could touch the otters.
All the otters ran away from me.

1065
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:10,120
I'm like, what are you doing?
You're supposed.

1066
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,680
To help me and.
I'm still convinced and I still

1067
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,320
think I could sell that jewelry
design.

1068
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,160
I'm just, I just think, yeah,
that's gonna happen.

1069
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,200
So we'll see what happens in the
next few years.

1070
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,520
So, Lauren, thank you for
coming.

1071
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:27,760
I end every podcast with the
same question, which is if you

1072
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,000
came with a warning label, what
would it be?

1073
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:34,160
I love this question.
I tried to think of something,

1074
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,160
you know, really erudite, but I
just kept coming back to like,

1075
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:41,480
we'll bite if provoked.
I love that.

1076
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,040
I don't even know that I feel
like that's true of me.

1077
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,320
I'm a biter.
I love bite.

1078
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,360
Like I will grab my daughter's
arm and just nibble.

1079
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,920
So seriously, I'm like, yes.
Yeah, and maybe that has to do

1080
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:57,640
with having like a round, you
know, certain looking face and

1081
00:57:57,640 --> 00:57:59,920
people don't think I have a lot
of bite.

1082
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,480
And sometimes I think they're
surprised, but I don't know.

1083
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:04,280
That's what I was like.
No, that's the one.

1084
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,160
Like, that's what it is.
So we'll bite if provoked.

1085
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,840
I'm I'm 100% satisfied with that
answer because if you're not

1086
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,120
watching, if you are just
listening, she's the sweetest

1087
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,240
smile and she does just gave me
the sweetest little grin.

1088
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,760
We'll bite when provoked.
It's true.

1089
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,800
I mean, it's true.
I like this so everyone can find

1090
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:29,480
you at free-expressions.com.
Do you want them to find you on

1091
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,440
Instagram or anywhere else?
Or do you want people?

1092
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:38,620
Yeah, I mean, I have it's free
under score expressions, under

1093
00:58:38,620 --> 00:58:40,840
score lit maybe.
I think I set up a lot of these

1094
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,080
accounts and then later was
like, I should have made things

1095
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:49,920
easier and then it's free God
expressions on Facebook and I

1096
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,000
can't remember.
Keep the links, yeah.

1097
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,680
I'm not on, I'm not on X or some
of the other ones, but yeah.

1098
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,080
Me neither, me neither.
Sam, obviously.

1099
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,360
Well, thanks again, Lauren.
Of course.

1100
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:01,400
Soon.
Thank you so much again for

1101
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:02,200
having me, I loved it.