Free Expressions: Writer, Editor and Publisher Lorin Oberweger Talks About the Process of Creative Writing, Editing and the Business of Publishing

0:05 Welcome to the Holly Hughes podcast. Today I have my friend and amazing person and creative editor. I don't, I think I don't even know what kind of editor I would call you anymore. Like I know you have a word for it, but we'll get to that. This is Lauren Overwer, who is a highly sought after editor, ghostwriter and an author in her own right with over 30 years of experience in publishing. So thank you for joining me today. Thank you for having me. We had, I'm going to just be completely transparent. We had a Mercury retrograde moment where the the screen went blank. But Andy Go is my producer and he didn't believe in the woo woo and the stuff and now I am making him a firm believer. So thanks for coming back.

0:51 Thank you, my pleasure, I said. I would keep my hands to myself and cooperate. When I'm a, when I'm a guest on podcasts or even sometimes like I wear bracelets and I just, I just spin it or hold it to try to keep my hands in place. But that I was going to get into later because you also did work with Ted talks and that is part of my Ted talk story. So I want I'm going to slightly try to be linear. So if you were going to explain who and what you are and what free expressions is, which is one of the best workshops ever because it's multi layered, how would you as the person who created describe it? So I have seen it described as a boutique literary services and workshops company.

1:44 So and I think that idea has to do with it's not, you know, kind of a big factory of editors where you're getting sort of an anonymous person reading your work. It's very hands on. I think that's the boutique kind of quality. It's there's the editing work that I do. And just to explain that briefly, I would consider myself a developmental editor first and foremost. And I won't go through all the tiers of potential editing, but the developmental editor really takes on the whole of a story from a kind of concept to plotting to character development and world building and voice and point of view and kind of the big picture stuff.

2:27 First, the organization of scenes, you know, everything. And I think when many people think of editing, they're kind of having an idea of like copy editing that somebody who has a, you know, a red pencil back in the day, you know, kind of working on the hard copy manuscript and correcting individual lines. And even when I do the line editing portion of what I do, it's still very developmental. It's a lot of conversation on the page. And it's different from kind of going a few tiers down to copy it and proofreading. I don't really do that kind of work. I'm really trying to help people develop and execute the best possible book that reflects what they're trying to accomplish. Yeah, you're.

3:14 Really good at diving into other people's voices. Yeah, right. Like, I don't. It's just it's a superhuman talent. It really is. Because I've been at full. Like I like to tell everyone that you're like, I've been to a Bonnie and I was at the YA one. Your best book? Your best book? Yeah. And the you curate other editors who are caring and you, I mean, there's like I'd like to say to everyone, there's always one in every group. There's one person who kind of grates, but that's part of the process. But you have this ability and I'm going to quote you.

3:54 I have quotes with a lot of people I've been talking to in ways that you impact me that maybe you didn't even know. But it was at a very early draft of probably deer dead drunk girl who's title you also gave me. You're like, why aren't you just calling it that? I'm like, I have no idea. And then you said, yeah, you could do that, or you can make it better. And with that, that sweet voice of yours and your kind face, with all the ruthlessness that was really behind it, which was this isn't good enough, Do better. But like in the way that you did it, it gave me permission to actually explore imagination and storytelling. Great.

4:37 Yeah. So that is a gift that you give your clients all the time. Yeah, I do feel like I've cultivated over obviously many decades that you cited the ability to, you know, allow for almost every writer's sort of defensive response or, you know, justifications. And I'm a writer. I, you know, I I can do that myself when other people are critiquing my work. And then I kind of think of it as gently circling back, you know, OK, if they are resisting, something early on in our discussion will go on, and then I will try to bring them back, you know, And obviously, if they're resistant a few times, I'm not going to, you know, hammer them over the head with my thoughts. But I do think, too, that people who come to my workshops and who hire me for editing are already ambitious writers. It's not a, you know, it's not an insignificant expense, the workshops or the editing.

5:38 It's it typically attracts people who have been at it for some time. You know, I designed everything that I do for that audience for intermediate, advanced and published writers because I felt like at the time, especially when I began obviously a long time ago, there just wasn't much out there for those folks. It was a lot of stuff aimed for beginners and I felt like people still want to grow as artists, you know, they still want to be pushed and inspired, you know, when they're beyond kind of understanding all the basics and then some. Yeah, I think it's a really great way to think about it. I I remember when I started writing young adult fiction, I had started in essays and ran away from that. Like 'cause that's usually how I find a genre by like, well, that's not working.

6:27 Let me go hide and write a story over here. Yeah, and it was SCBWI, the Society of Children Writers and Book Illustrators. And at the time I was still living in LA, and I was afraid to go to that, thinking that you had to be really good, not really understanding. It's the place for beginners. It really explains what you need to do and how you need to do it and the rules of writing. For me, it was young adult fiction or middle grade or picture books. I think a lot of women once they have kids are like, I'm going to write a picture book like we all thought. Because you're like, look, I'm an expert. I have one now, but it's never what they think it is, right? It's utterly different.

7:09 But I was like when I went there and I was like, well, I'm beyond like this phase. Not saying that my writing is expertise or whatever, but I was like, I was hungry to bite into more. I think that's actually how I was introduced, you know, to you. I had met Tracy Adams of Adams Literary, A literary agent, and I think it was Henry Neff and a few others there. Yeah. And they're like, well, Lauren and I was like, Lauren, like, you're like, there's echo in the room. Go to Lauren. You should talk to Lauren. I was like, are you insulting me? Like, you know, like at what point, you know, you're like, if someone says it enough. I was like, what are you saying that I'm not or But I actually think it was about thinning of both personality and desire, right. You really have to have this willingness to persevere to get anywhere in publishing.

8:02 I'm curious because you've had such a vast knowledge and length of time in publishing and you've ridden several waves, right? What's popular, what's not, and written in them. What do you see? Is like the thing that's happening now like I'm? Serious. Yeah. I mean, I think that you have a couple of things, actually, a few things, but the biggest one that comes to mind is the kind of advent of AI and what kind of impact that's going to have on creativity and the life of creators and the world of publishing. I think right now kind of the same way like I am, I've been at it so long that I can remember when there was a panic about mass market paperbacks killing publishing and then there was a hysteria about, you know, digital books killing publishing. And now there's a, you know, a little bit of a hysteria about AI killing publishing and how, you know, we won't need real creators because AI will just generate novels. And that's, you know, it's certainly pretty much like almost no cost to publishers to take on those kinds of books. But I don't think that will be the case. And we can talk more about that.

9:21 But I think that is the big thing that's on everybody's mind these days. I you run this six month writing program and we have these twice monthly kind of group get togethers and that topics come up a lot for discussion and people ask me about it a lot. So that's a big thing. And you know, I think there's a lot of sorting out to do. What I feel very confident in is that AI is getting worse in terms of generating material, but there's a lot of stuff to talk about. I've had every single one of my published books scraped for AI without my consent, without any kind of compensation. And every traditionally published writer I know can say the same. So that's a, you know, that's a big issue.

10:02 The other thing is kind of the rise of self-publishing and you see it as a much more viable way to get your book out than it used to be perceived. And I think it there is less kind of discrimination against people who are self-publishing. I think, you know, the, the field is being kind of leveled. The playing field is being leveled to some extent. And what I find is there's a lot of kind of proselytizing from the self-publishing side that that is the, you know, that that is the form that everybody's journey should take in publishing. And that traditional publishing is, you know, terrible. And you, you know, it's, it's there's a weird like salesiness to it that I don't understand why people, you know, don't just let people choose their, choose their own adventure, you know? That is a good way to put it, yeah. You know, I definitely dip my toe into both arenas, right? And so I find that fascinating.

11:08 I think my frustration with traditional publishing came from, I just found it, it's the right word, myopic. I just found that most publishers are from New York, right? Like back when I right. And so there's this sensibility and this kind of personality. And they decided what being diverse meant, right? And, and they decided what diverse stories are, and they decided who they get to pay attention to. And I was like, you're missing the whole point of diversity. Like, you can move out. Like move. What if you didn't? What if publishing wasn't just housed in a really expensive city? Yeah. What would that do?

11:50 What would perspective would that bring? So I think my, my frustration when I was dealing with it at the time was like, but there's but you're, you've become what you hate almost. Yeah. And I think that's because, I mean, I think, you know, we're talking about the big 5 captures, you know, because there are a lot of really great, you know, medium size and smaller presses that do amazing work and, you know, are helping writers really get their work out there and are offering decent advances. You know, maybe not the, you know, the big six figure ones that you hear about sometimes, but, you know, are really doing wonderful, wonderful work.

12:30 And they aren't as myopic. And I do understand that. I think what happens too is that when you're in traditional publishing, you know, as a, as an employee, you know, an editor, whatever you're doing, you know, you're constantly having to prove your worth in the form of the books that you've chosen. And it comes down to a numbers game. You know that, you know, when they even if they love a book, they still have to present like a profit and loss statement of other books that are sort of comparable to, you know, the various departments. So, you know, it's a business And I think it's, you know, even if people would love to take on certain projects, you know that they they feel a little hamstrung sometimes.

13:20 And often it's the case that when they do take a risk, you know, if they can make a compelling case, those books pay off. But it's really hard to do if you have a string of like, beautiful gems that sell 2500 copies, you know, it's hard for you to get a raise and a promotion, you know, at the publishing house. So, you know, I always try to remind people it's a business. It's always been a business. And it's, you know, it's actually not harder to get published today than it's ever been. It's just that there are more people doing the work of writing and more people who I think have an expectation that, you know, there should be more of an open door. And I think that's what leads people to make their own opportunities and self-publishing. It's perfectly valid to to, you know, to feel all the things you feel.

14:07 You know, it's not inaccurate, it's wrong. I mean, I, I honestly, it's like I, I had an agent, we parted ways just post COVID. So it's not something I want to do. I'm watching my friends. I didn't realize how often Agent turnover actually is with writers. Is that something that you talk about in any of your workshops? Like the reality of that relationship. You know, my, I, I would say I talk about it much more with my individual clients who are going through that or, or planning to go through that. You know, my writers, my workshops are very craft intensive. So, you know, we don't get into that much of the business of writing.

14:53 I, I certainly have put on webinars about like querying and synopsis and the pitch package and that end of the business, but not on the career level stuff which I, you know, I think can be useful. And you know, we do AQ and A at the end of every one of our, you know, breakout novel intense and people will ask questions about that. And I do them with a literary agent, Donald Moss, who's also been in publishing even longer than me. And we will definitely have those discussions when asked, but it's not necessarily a built in component because we are really focused on the creation of amazing books more than you know. OK, what happens after you create all that? Now that you have something awesome, let's let's go through the thing.

15:39 Yeah, No, I think it's been. It was fascinating because I had talked to a lot of people and when I was going through the quarry trenches, it was never an issue about the writing. They just didn't know how to sell what I wanted to write and the stories I wanted to give. And I was like, oh, OK, OK, right. You know, that was that was like, there's nothing you can do or say about that. But that goes back to that it is a business and the agent's job is to sell. Yes, absolutely. Wants to make money, so that is the antithesis of all the hard work that goes into a book. Like, what would you say? Usually average length It takes a person to write a book.

16:20 Nowadays, gosh, I mean truly, I've had people who have taken a decade and eventually became a really wonderful success story. And I've had people who've written a book in six months. I think the average for, you know, I would say probably to get through multiple revisions, let's say, you know, first draft and a few revisions, it's typically, I would say averages at a couple of years. I think there are definitely people who can do it faster, you know, people who take much more time. But if I had to just like instinctively pick a number, I would say that would be about the sweet spot. Yeah, I was just saying that because I think people who don't write write they don't like.

17:06 Sometimes I feel guilty when I read a book in 2 days. I did savor every life I'm. Like, it's like, I don't know how long this paragraph took them or especially if I really love it. And I was like, I love it. Then they then they sold it. And it took two years after it got to the publishing house to come to me. This is this is five years minimum of work right here. And I just slurped it down like, like melting hot, like milk chocolate bars. Let me get that in. So yeah. Yeah, but isn't there some quote that's like, you know, hard work, hard writing makes easy reading or something like that? I might be making that up. I like it. It's probably applicable to another, you know, profession entirely, but I think of it.

17:47 I mean, that's a compliment to the, you know, the person who's booked you're reading that you're moving through it quickly. That means that they're creating a sense of anticipation and reason, reason for you to scroll or turn the page or, you know, whatever it is. So, you know, I don't think they girl. I gotta say I am. I'm a paperback girl too. I like, I have lots of hard covers because I like to support my authors in the same way I do. But I have been reading because I'm lucky enough to being being receiving Arcs lately. Yeah, I hate reading on a screen. I'm like it. It annoys me. First of all, I can't make notes like it, like what I want, or I can't circle or I usually when I love something, I put a little star and I can go through a book.

18:29 I don't know this. It's tactile for me. Yeah. And the smell of the paper. I'm really picking. It out the paper. Yeah, I understand that very much. As somebody who's sort of had that critique of works of mine that have been published. You know, it's really great when something is well made and has your work in it compared to something that feels cheaper. I am completely eclectic. I will read in every single form. I tend to. First of all, of course, I read on screens for a living. That's how I make a big part of my living. I would need new glasses often. I do all the, you know, like I, but I find like the backlighting and all that really helps me with reading sometimes like I'm, you know, getting there. I'm getting up there.

19:13 But I love audio books. I love, you know, I like, you know, a paper paperback hard copy. But what I also love is that hard copy books have gotten more and more popular with the advent of digital books. So people are also making that choice. Just like, you know, people like vinyl, even though we had, you know, CDs and, you know, MP threes and all those things. So we just, we like a tactile experience. I went actually into like a record store not too long ago. And I was, I was like, I'm pretty sure these are from my bedroom as a teenager. Like I was like, and now they're $8090.00. I was like, do you remember, like, was it, it was Tower Wreck? Was it Tower? Yeah, it was Tower Music.

19:54 Yeah, yeah. Sam Goodies was another one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd recently, I mean, it's been a few years now. I don't know if you can see. I have like a turntable and I had no albums, so I had to go back and get albums. And a lot of it was like, oh gosh, you know. I used to listen to Prince, Sign of the times that, you know, in all these forms. And now I'm going to get the album. And, you know, it was kind of recreating. Yeah, of course I have a good amount of new stuff, but it was also kind of going back and and recreating the stuff that I loved from like my teenage years. And so, yeah, I get it. I keep thinking about the sound that like cleaning the needle makes. Yeah. Does that still exist or is it? Yes. I mean, I don't, I haven't really cleaned the needle because I think they're better, so there's not as much to do with that. But yeah, like that first putting the needle down and that little crackle, it's like it's the sound of anticipation, which I love.

20:44 That's what good writing does too. Exactly. So like how? When is your next Bonnie? What's coming up for you? Because you're busy. Yes, yes. And I just had a big conference to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Free Expressions, and that was the biggest one I've done and bringing in like 10 different speakers and you know, that was a big deal. And so the next one is a virtual breakout, novel intensive. Oh, actually, I take it back. The next one is in September and it's called Beyond the Breakout. And it's a even smaller group workshop and, and retreat with just 12 people. And we're all going to be in like an Airbnb together. And it's, you know, it's much more, it's even obviously smaller because I found that Don who's, you know, the key instructor really does so well in that small group kind of settings and he's.

21:43 Yeah. And he's really good at keeping track of people's stories. And so it can be really personalized and really cozy. And, you know, I, I love, one of the things I really love is the community that comes out of what I do. So I just love the opportunity for people to connect with each other. So that's the next one in Branson, MO. And yeah, I was trying to find places that weren't Orlando only because I've done other things like that here or nearby where you could find a giant 12 bedroom house to rent. So, you know, there are only a few places like that. So that's coming up. And then in November, we have a virtual breakout novel Intensive, which is obviously a virtual version of our workshop. And at some point we were doing it during the pandemic. We're kind of replicating the week, but just online because people were home and you know, they kind of made sense. But at some point when people started kind of going back to their jobs in their lives, I thought it might be better if we spread it out over like 6 weeks.

22:46 So it's once a week class with Don and then a supplemental class. And that's turned out to be really popular. So it's a way that people can still do it. It's making my fingers itch. I was like, well, you know, I I met my critique partner Nikki through YBB. Yep, we're still talk like almost every day. She is a girl who just likes to study the craft. She can tell you everything. This is her thing. We have very different styles, very different ways of doing it, but very supportive. So you do create this fabulously interesting, supportive environment and everyone writes different genres there.

23:26 Of course, it's not just. One thing. So I wouldn't want anyone to think that just because I said young adult, that's all there is. It's not everything. But Don is a trip. I mean personality wise, he's he delivers. So, so does Brenda and you have Rob. I mean you, you bring in people to create like this magic. So I did the Bonnie in in Oregon. So like what I also like about your workshops is you, you remove us from the world we are occupying. And anyone who's never done that, it's really amazing where your brain will go when you are not like dealing with what's for dinner and driving someone or. Yeah, 100%.

24:15 And I think you're in a very immersive and inspired environment, so you're picking up all the creative energy from other people and you get ideas, talking to people about their ideas. And my whole thing when I started workshops, because Don and I started with weekend seminars, that was, you know, the first thing I rolled out. But I knew again, as a writer, what I wanted to do and I wanted to make sure people were fed on site. Because I've been to ones where you were just kind of on your own and you missed so many opportunities for connecting with people. You feel weird and insecure about, you know, where you're going if you don't know the area. And that, you know, when we did the week long ones that they were people were in private rooms and could be comfortable. You know, I again, it's, you know I design a lot of things around my own standards and values, right? You don't.

25:07 Skip that's what I'm saying. That's super important. I remember like even walking and it was like cold and raining. Shockingly, it was in. In Hood River, OR. Yeah, but I was walking, and I was walking by all these Birch trees and all I just saw in their knots was like eyeballs. I just felt like I was watching. I took this whole series of being watched, and then that idea of being watched found its way into my work. Just. Oh, yeah. Or I also went for a walk and there was like a bunch of like homeless people, like living under a bridge there. And like even that experience of like, you know, where do you look? Where do you not look? I was like you. Just your senses become heightened in an observatory and experiential way. And then that finds its way onto the page in a way that, you know, it's amazing to grind every day or get your word ass and chair time and do that, but also leaving the familiar. Yes, I think it's so important.

26:02 Yeah, yeah. And being pushed, you know, I think during the class, it's a very generative class. You know, it's not, you know, when I'm a teacher, I'm often very nuts and bolts and teaching, you know, conceptual stuff and taking people in a really, you know, concrete way through whatever aspects of writing. And Don is, you know, more kind of abstract and you know, he's really pushing you to do writing in class and to do exercises where you're exploring and there's no, you know, there's no right or wrong. You know, it's really, it's and it's also very individual to your work. So, you know, you can kind of go at your own pace.

26:42 You can take on what you want to take on. You can write or you can just take notes. You know, you can do it different ways. And I wanted that kind of fluid experience, so. It's super generative. I know that. I've been running away from it because I just don't like anything. I had enough to give it that much time and attention, which is honestly being a bit chicken if let's just be 100 right there. But we, we have those moments where we're more prolific or like your life needs different parts need more attention. But if anyone's listening and you have a story idea or you have a book that you've polished 3 times and you don't know why you're not getting the attention, these kinds of workshops make you see it different.

27:24 I think Nikki and I always quote Don's. I think it's Don. If it's you, I apologize. It's one. Of you. You're you're a dual group, right? You're like a package deal. Absolutely. It's that scene where he tells you to go beyond the obvious. So it's that car accident thing that he always talks about. So your characters in a car accident, what's the first thing they see? Forget that. What's the second thing they see? Forget that too, everyone knows those are the tropes. Now what's the third thing? And I think he always used to talk about like the hula girl and the skirt. Wiggling, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that I use that often while editing my own work, you have, but that's way past the process of getting all the out.

28:10 Yeah, yeah. And he also is really great about talking in that, you know, that same context about the emotional craft and looking for the, you know, he calls them like third level emotions. So, you know, and I think, yeah, there's a lot of cross pollination between Don and me at this point because we've been doing work together for 25 years and I've known him longer. And yeah, but what I would also say is, you know, I think people also feel like they have to come with something that's really polished. And actually, I think, and I've been saying this forever, that it's a really great workshop for coming with just like, ideas on cocktail napkins, because also you're less closed off to development ideas. You know, if you come with your third draft, I find this is a lot of years of experience now.

29:00 You have to be a really fearless kind of writer and the kind of writer who loves tearing things down to the stud studs and starting over, and a lot of people aren't, and it's very human and understandable. So you're like, you know, and most people aren't. And most people aren't. And, and you know, we all sort of want to, you know, with writing, it's attractive to take the path of least resistance sometimes. So if you come with more of an idea of the book, an idea of your characters, and all of the workshop is about generating ideas for the story, I think it can be really valuable. And so I try to I. Could come with my memoir. You absolutely good. We have people come with memoir. I'm hiding from that one.

29:41 I got so many post its. So I get it, Yeah. And it's a little bit of, I mean, we do have, you know, it's we've definitely had probably a couple dozen people who've come with memoirs, you know, and some of the lingo, you know, you need to kind of translate in your mind and think of yourself as a protagonist and, you know, all those things. But I find it's been, you know, pretty fertile for people. But I think that's even a good way to do it, to take myself out of it. Or I could just do what I always do and it'll spark a new idea and I'll just run away from the memoir like I have for 10 years and just been like. We'll have to talk about that, but maybe not in the middle of. Here. Well, not right now.

30:21 Yeah. I have three books in draft. They're like, so people are like, what are you writing? And like, what's up with this? And I was like, oh, like, so dear dead drunk girl. I still. I love it. But when I went through the process of getting my agent and had seven R and Rs and then she had me do a pass. So I'm sure that was confusing. Yeah, because it's not my book anymore, right? But I was like, well, I'm, I'm, I was like, I'm willing, I'm playing the game, whatever, whatever. And back in the day, edgy girls, right? And my girl was kind of edgy anyway cuz she's dear dead drunk girl anyway, right. But what my agent loved about the book in the day, she's like, I love the sister relationship. This is what the story is all about.

31:02 But the provision she made me do was plot. That wasn't ever part of the book. And so I had to take it back. And then I read it. I was like, what is this pile of poo? Because I didn't like it? And then I was like, do I have the energy to make it what I want it to be again? And then whatever, I wasn't sure. So I sat on that for over a year and then I did a revision. And it was so exhausting because I'm not the writer I was when I started that. Yeah. And how much revision do you do? And like, now I'm like, well, what time period do I put it in? And these are all the reasons why I'm going slow. But I think it was like, what month are we in while we're. Retiring it's only.

31:45 July, I think four months ago. It was right before I left for Korea. It I, I figured out the sauce, right? I was like this, this is this is the thing that will make me fix it. And then I had to like let go of some darlings that I had worked back in. But it, it will be what I want. I just, I think it'll be a completing it for me. Like I have to not even worry about putting out in the world. It was just I I wanted to be about sisters in love and redemption. Yeah, I love that. Not the plot driven crazy psycho girl that she became. So I talk. I've asked other people, like when do you walk away from something?

32:25 Do you ever tell anyone to walk away? Do you just like, what would you tell someone? Yeah. I mean, I think that it can be useful to walk away knowing that you don't have to permanently walk away. And it sounds like that's some of your experience. And also, I think, you know, when you're talking, I'm also thinking about how the market is different in terms of that crossover world between YA and adult and how the expectations of what a young adult character is have changed, I think, but. I'm putting everyone back at the age I originally had on Mary, 17. He's gonna be 23. Like everyone's like, well, you can't do that. You can't like, but can't.

33:06 But they're dead. Actually, yeah, they're dead. You. Could do whatever you want. You absolutely do and you could do whatever you want even if they were alive, although that would not that would defeat the purpose. Of the book. But yeah, I mean, I don't ever tell people to just shell something like I, I don't think that's my place. My place is to help support them and give them all the tools possible to craft a book that is going to represent what they wanted to represent and hopefully sell if that's their ambition. I think everything is fixable, but I think it can take a lot of time and craft study and work. You know, I don't think everything is necessarily immediately fixable. And again, I'm lucky because, you know, I work with people. It's very rare.

33:55 Like I wouldn't actually even take on an editing client who wasn't pretty proficient because I feel like that would be unfair to them. Like, you know, a more kind of newcomer, they're not going to, they're going to be so discouraged and not know what to do with a 35 page single spaced evaluation, You know, like that's going to overwhelm them. It overwhelms people anyway. You know, it's even more skilled people. So I don't think it's my, you know, job to tell people and people request it. You know, not infrequently will they be like, will you tell me if I should, you know, not quit my day job? And I will say no, like I'm here to help you quit your day job. Eventually, that's what you want to do. But I will tell you everything I think you need to do to get your work where it needs to be. You know, I'm not pulling punches. I'm obviously, you know, I try to be very kind and supportive and a cheerleader for their work. Excuse me.

34:50 But you also just never know. Like I've had people start out very raw, you know, especially through some of my like writing programs and then made these tremendous leaps, like surprising leaps. And I've had people come in who were, you know, this close to being publishable level, but they were resistant to the point that they never really progressed. And so, you know, like, I love that you just never know. And so it's my job to just help people like along the path not to, you know, tell people to give up their creative dreams. Like that would that's very bad karma in my mind. And I would, you know, like, I just, I hate that idea. And I hate that idea of like brutal honesty, you know, like I'm a brutal critiquer.

35:37 Like I, you know, that's not what people respond to. I got a brutal critique from someone I met in one of your workshops. She literally wrote blah, blah, blah on board. I was like, oh, because I know you like. What was that? Why did you have to do that? It's a first draft. I'm clearly stuck, which is what I sent when I gave you the papers. I'm stuck. Yeah. And how did that make you feel? It didn't make you feel like energized to keep. Working. No. Maybe you want to like, throat puncher. Honestly, yeah. I'm a big baby. Like, I often admit this when I first get notes. I never read it really. What's on the page. I just real I, and it takes me a day or two to process. Then I read it again. I'm like, Oh my God, that's what you said. You tell me I'm just whatever.

36:20 And then probably one of my weaknesses as a writer is that I wish I could go faster. Yeah, right. Like, I know that I need time away because if I'm working on something, then I get too close. I know something's wrong, but I, I don't have the ability to evaluate it, to know what to do to fix it. So that's. Why people like me exist, you know, Because nobody really does, you know, but like. Six months away sometimes sounds forever to me, or a year away sometimes like sounds forever. But it's necessary to gain perspective and then take whatever you have learned or hopefully you learn. Right. And I have said this a lot that you know, with people who are, you know, let's say pre publication, if you know that's where they are, you know, I'll say like take your time because once your e-book is accepted and you're in that publishing, you know, cycle and the pipeline and they're looking for another book from you and you're trying to write book 2 while you're promoting book 1 and all that stuff. This this is the only stage in the process where you have the luxury of time and perspective in a different way than you do once you are kind of swept into the whole machine. Yeah, exactly.

37:37 Yeah, are. You writing anything of your own right now? I am. I've had my own fallow period. So I mean, obviously, you know, I write things for a living in a way, and I'm writing craft articles and all that. I have been really interested in an anthology that I'm sort of slowly crafting short fiction having to do with kind of a speculative treatment of the issue of reproductive rights. So I just had a story. It so happened that I had this idea. I've had it for a couple of years now and have had a lot of ideas, and I'm kind of poking around with it.

38:20 And there was an anthology produced by this literary magazine called Hypertext, and they were actually looking for stories that literally fit right into this theme. And so I made myself like write one of the stories like fully and sent it off and got it accepted. And the anthology just came out literally like a couple weeks ago. But I just kind of finding my way around, I have so many ideas for stories and, and then I have another idea for a series that I'm again, just kind of playing with. But I, you know, I had to write 8 books in five years between ghost writing and my, you know, romantic comedies. Yeah.

39:03 And I think I just burned out, you know, and that in addition to editing and teaching and putting on workshops and all of that. So I'm just kind of like dipping my toe, you know, back in the water again. I love that you know this one. I think I started noodling or writing essays again, which I had. I was good like that used to be a way I I sold them a lot and then I just kind of stopped and then just like everything right? You just there's a season with everything. But I'm going back to that. I'm going back to memoir and I still love short stories. I just find it harder to kind of place like I have the beginning of a short story that started in a workshop. I mean like maybe decades ago and it was, it's very me. So it's very magically, realistically bizarro, but basically a girl is walking around and she's holding, I think I added vampires at one point, but basically she has AI. Think I did.

40:09 Where did I send that? I can't even remember that but basically the girl walks around with a bowling pin but she keeps it wrapped like a baby. Interesting. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I'm also so. Bizarro, right? Yeah, but I love it. And I mean, like all the ideas I have for this anthology are, you know, horror kind of inspired or science fiction inspired. You know, they're not just our normal world because that's, I also love more speculative things and magical realism and horror and, you know, all those genres. Yeah. And I do find that I have had this cycle in life of getting burned out on long form fiction writing and going to short fiction because, you know, it's gratifying to finish things and then to also be able to send them out and see if anybody wants to do anything with them.

40:55 Like it's, you know, it's incredibly satisfying. You're just making me remember. I'm like, Oh my God, I've finished that story. And like, I had a vampire go after her because he was like, why are you walking around with a dead baby? Because I don't feel anything from this baby, right? And then she stabs him with a hidden knife. And I don't know, like it was so bizarrely me. I love it now. I'm gonna have to go dig through my like my archives. The bullet pin like opens up to have a stake in it. Yes, it did. That's. What you want, that's what you want, obviously. Well, that's a great reversal. See, you make me immediately want to start like brainstorming. Like what a good reversal of expectation that she's been trying to lure the vampire the. Whole she was. Yeah, that was it. I love it. Did I send it? You know, so I'm gonna.

41:38 Have no. But, you know, story. Story. Yeah. It's obviously this is Lawrence magic. See now you know how she does she goes into this is Hollys brain. Of course she's gonna have a dagger in that thing and killed the. Vampire. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. I always say I'm, it's kind of like I'm Rain Man. Like I have one highly developed muscle and that's it and it's story. And I'm lucky that I could also use that for a living, because it would really be a bummer if that's all I could do and I couldn't do it. But it's also like quite you amazing. It's like, I know you weren't I when you were doing all of that, I was like, you know, watching peripheral. I was like, I don't know how you do that. And then you are editing books like people I'm people are sending you 80, you know, 5. And how long is an average book now? Yeah, 85,000 words.

42:22 Is that the number? 80 yeah, somewhere around 1985 yeah, I. Have to tell you, I prefer my books around 7075. Yeah, that's what I write. I write up to there and like that's just like a good nibble. Yeah, yeah. And it really so depends on the scope of the story, Like when I was, you know, briefly A literary agent, which, you know, was not for me. Not for you. Not for me and I admire people who it's for. But but I realized I did it because I wanted to be an advocate for people and help on the editing end of things. And that's what I, of course, was already doing for a living. So it kind of got in the way of my doing what I really feel good at. But what I would notice is sometimes people would query with a story that they would say was 130,000 words and the expression of the plot was the most simplistic plot you could imagine. And so immediately I would just be afraid of what, you know, like you don't need 130,000 words to tell the story of, you know, two teenagers stuck overnight in a mall, let's say, or whatever.

43:24 So that already is, you know, putting me on high alert that somebody's overwriting. So I think 130,000 word book can be very well earned if it has that scope and that sort of more epic feel and bigger public stakes and, you know, all that stuff. But some stories need to be 75,000 words, some stories need to be 90, you know, etcetera. I know someone's worrying now and they're just futzing with word count to get because the agents like I'm looking for this. And I was like, do you need to do that? Like do you actually? But I guess she's playing the game. So I'll, I'm just like, yeah, do what you need. Sure. Yeah. And I think it really depends on, you know, if it's the difference between 89,000 and 91,000, I don't think anybody cares, you know what I mean? But if it's the difference between 89,000 and 129,000 and it's a genre that doesn't tend to take that length of project on, then yeah, like, but you have to examine the book and, you know, usually make bigger changes than just lateral little edits, I think for.

44:23 You as an agent, you're, you are too developmental. Like you can see the potential in so much yeah, which is just hard work. I also, I think, you know, people would be interesting to know that a lot of agents aren't editorial and they are really taking on projects that they know that they can sell because they have relationships with specific editors. So, but don't, don't believe, I think I ran into this a bit, not myself because my ego is definitely not that big. But they think, Oh, my book is done and they they're not prepared for that editorial letter that will humble them that comes back from the publishing house. And yes, I was just talking to somebody who's transitioning from publishing and they wanted to pick my brain about freelancing and just, you know, we were talking about sort of comparing what their editorial letter would look like and what my evaluation would look like.

45:17 And a typical editorial letter might be 6 or 7, you know, 10 pages. And my typical evaluation is 3 times, you know, the length of that because by the time those books get to that person, they are, you know, further along than the people who come to me often. But also the expectation is different. And what they're trying to do is different. I'm trying to help people develop their writing for their whole career, you know, and they're, you know, kind of more book focused. But yeah, I remember when I was agenting that, you know, one of my agents, Joshua Adams, was like, you know, basically like, you know, it's OK to take on a book that's ready to go, Lolo, You know, you don't have to take on. The whole thing is I, I know what his voice sounds like. Everybody.

45:58 It's. That was so him, yes. So it's true and I, I just had to go back to what I really feel good at and, you know, enjoy doing. Yeah, that's good. So I would love to go into how you connected with the Ted Talks and welcome to my Ted talk, which is the joke in my family that we thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. And then I always say again, because I got to do a Ted X talk, which is not the same as a Ted Talk, just whatever. But like, how did that happen? Well, that is, you know, I didn't, I, I don't think anybody would want me to do an actual Ted Talk, but I got that job because it's kind of like a, it's actually starts with an SCBWI. But basically I had been on a path where I was being brought into ghostwrite a lot of projects that were re imaginings and repackagings of adult memoirs for a young adult audience.

46:58 Like that somewhat became my sweet spot. So I started out doing one for, I guess I shouldn't say to, I mean, he, he's acknowledged that I've worked on. So a former Navy SEAL who became a governor who became not a governor. And it was taking one of his memoirs and, you know, really reworking his material, but also adding new material. And I worked on a few projects like that. And so, you know, the Welcome to my Ted Talk is a reimagining of a book by Chris Anderson, who's the, you know, director of Ted Talks that was about public speaking for adults and they wanted to do one that was about public speaking for kids. So they brought me into work on that. And I, you know, again, it was reworking some of his material finding, you know, obviously they have such a great history of speakers that they can refer to. So trying to find more speakers that would be relevant to the younger audience.

48:01 So kind of reworking those and and then adding completely fresh material. So, you know, we work together kind of virtually. But yeah, that was just a project that, you know, it kind of became something that I was known to be good at. And so and I really love that book. Actually. I feel like I think it's one of my favorite of those ghost writing projects. Not really ghost writing because I'm on the cover. So it's, you know, Co writing, I guess. So, yeah. It's it's just that he, his books had been published by the same publisher who would use me for other projects. So they thought of me. I love that. Yeah, me too. I.

48:41 Love that. So so have you ever done any work with like anyone who does like audio books at all like that? Like I've never honestly listened to a single audio book, but I've I see a lot of narrators online and I'm like fascinated. So do you ever work with anyone like that at all or is that it? Hasn't. Color Lane. Yeah, it's a whole other. I mean, the way that I have, I wouldn't say I've worked with them, but you know, when the audio books of the three romantic comedies were, you know, being produced, you know, my Co writer Veronica and I got to choose the the narrators and you know, like that was the amount of input we had. It's.

49:22 Pretty good though. It was great. And I mean, you know, we had three each to, you know, it wasn't like, oh, they gave us. Yeah, yeah, 20 options. And we, you know, like the I don't necessarily love the male narrator for the third book like that. That's the one that was a little bit of a misfire. But the first books, it was such a revelation, actually, to listen to my book as an audio book and hear it and, like, experience it in such a wholly different way. It was so exciting. And I would have these moments where I would be so swept up and think that person said this line better than I thought it when I wrote it. Like they gave it an interpretation that wasn't even my interpretation, but it was like it added something.

50:05 And so that's a thrill. But I haven't like, I'm open to any of that kind of work. And I, you know, I do love audiobooks. I like to switch around. Like I like to be reading something, then go in my car and listen, you know, pick it up and listen to it and then go back and read it. So it's really cool. I mean, that's a cool new function, you know that I'm. Wondering if I that would be safe for me like it's. Like but you just drift off while you're driving it just end up wrapped. Around a tree getting gross. I'm like, it's already bad enough that I'm trying to sing and dance in my car. Like my mom was in my car once. And she's like my whole life. I'm wondering what makes you so mad when you drive? Like, what are you talking about? She's like the way you tap your thumb. I'm like, this is the beat of what I'm listening to. She's like, oh, that makes a lot more sense. That's funny.

50:53 We should we also, in a separate conversation, should unpack that. Like my my daughter is a teenager. My favorite thing to do is embarrass her in the when she's in the car with me now because I only you know she'll be leaving soon. Parental rite of passage, Yeah. Correct. So I forget what song was it yesterday? I get her. I think it was like one of the songs I do a Zumba class, like in a Zumba. So I was like, and she's like mom and I'm like mom. There's a new guy in the car next to Yeah I. Add a vowel to every word. Mom. But I think for me, it's fun. She laughs, but she's bright red. Love it.

51:37 I think that I think I would forget to turn if I was listening to a book. Yeah, especially. Yeah, right. That is what I'm worried about. But I can do that with just my own thoughts. I don't need. It's not necessarily just the distraction of a book. It can be music, it can be just getting in my head. So I don't find it's a huge material difference, but I think it's a valid concern. All right, well now I have a new thing to try which makes me very excited. So if you were gonna give like 1 developmental tip, I should also say, and we'll say this in a few more minutes when we wrap up, but Lauren, if you join free expressions like e-mail list, which I am on, they give prompts. Yeah.

52:21 Like for nothing. It's free, people. It's free and. And craft. Articles. They're awesome, so thanks there. But if you were going to give a developmental tip that is universal for most people who come towards you, what what, what thought would you give them while they're writing or editing? Can I give 2? Yeah. Can I give 12? No, just kidding. I So the first one is to really understand what character agency means that it's helpful. This isn't like a, you know, it doesn't apply to every single book, but it's very helpful to have your character have the will and ability to accomplish things in a story and to want things and to come into the story wanting things and to try to be the agent of change and progress in a story. I think too often people start with a character who is victimized by circumstances and kind of inert. So I have, you know, call webinars and character agency, but I think it's a really important concept to understand and embrace.

53:28 And the other one I think is understanding scene structure. This is also another big, big topic of mine. I love to talk about it, but to understand how novels or memoirs are organized into this developmental unit called scenes and understanding what a scene is built around, which is, again, kind of to go with the issue of agency, a character who is trying to make something happen and meeting obstacles. And there are a lot of other parameters. I won't, you know, give the whole lesson. But those two things, understanding agency and understanding scene structure will take writers so far. Like, it really will help them create what you want to create in a reader, which is anticipation and investment and to help us feel like we're in good hands as readers.

54:19 So those are my 2. That's a really good one because I know my first drafts like I'm always writing my way into a story. I know this about myself and I try not to judge it. I'm like, all right, 25 pages that will get me to where I need to go. It's. Exactly. Yeah, but also, I used to have the habit of not having my main character make a choice. Yep, right. So the world's acting on them, but it's makes a huge difference that the world can act on them, but then they choose what to do. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you just have characters, you know, that ends up with what we call like episodic fiction. You know, if you only have a character who is only moved by things that happen to them, other people's agendas, circumstances befalling them, then as readers, we get anxious because we don't know when the next thing's going to come along. But if a character is trying to make things happen, we know we know that we're along for that ride and we're going to participate when they're trying to make things happen. And of course, you don't want them to succeed that often because that would end the story. But, you know, it just creates so much more momentum. And again, like that anticipation is, you can't really understate how important that is. We read because we're anticipating something every moment along the way and kind of the ultimate anticipation of where the story is going to end up. Yeah, for sure.

55:44 It's one thing I think I've always tried to fix in my opening of Dear Dead Drunk Girl. And I figured it out and I was like, it's just like a word. I just had to like change a word or a sentence or maybe the rules of my whatever. Like I did, I unpacked all of that. I was like, Oh yeah, I need a different rule. I mean, you even said to me once, this is the rule I just figured out, and you won't remember because it's been forever. And if you do, you could just not pretend. Yeah, but like, her bar is covered in pictures, right? But I change what the pictures are. You're like, you have the setup, but there's no payoff. And I was like, yes, I know, I know I have this flaw, but I never had an answer that satisfied me. I was so busy satisfying the R&R or making this. But I've had the opportunity now to satisfy myself. Yeah.

56:33 And now I'm like, yay, OK, I'm gonna have to finish this book already. It's. Yeah, I mean, I I've always loved it. And also I still feel such a kinship with otters as a result. I have two stuck animals. I have them. I have two plushies on my bookcase that are otters in honor. Literally anytime I see a meme with otters like you come to mind I always like I have to stop myself from forwarding them or just being like look another Otter. Yeah, you should. You should send them. I went to go. I went to an event and not an event. I was at a zoo at one point. I was like, Oh my God, The kind you could touch the otters. All the otters ran away from me. I'm like, what are you doing? You're supposed. To help me and. I'm still convinced and I still think I could sell that jewelry design.

57:15 I'm just, I just think, yeah, that's gonna happen. So we'll see what happens in the next few years. So, Lauren, thank you for coming. I end every podcast with the same question, which is if you came with a warning label, what would it be? I love this question. I tried to think of something, you know, really erudite, but I just kept coming back to like, we'll bite if provoked. I love that. I don't even know that I feel like that's true of me. I'm a biter. I love bite. Like I will grab my daughter's arm and just nibble. So seriously, I'm like, yes. Yeah, and maybe that has to do with having like a round, you know, certain looking face and people don't think I have a lot of bite.

58:00 And sometimes I think they're surprised, but I don't know. That's what I was like. No, that's the one. Like, that's what it is. So we'll bite if provoked. I'm I'm 100% satisfied with that answer because if you're not watching, if you are just listening, she's the sweetest smile and she does just gave me the sweetest little grin. We'll bite when provoked. It's true. I mean, it's true. I like this so everyone can find you at free-expressions.com. Do you want them to find you on Instagram or anywhere else? Or do you want people? Yeah, I mean, I have it's free under score expressions, under score lit maybe. I think I set up a lot of these accounts and then later was like, I should have made things easier and then it's free God expressions on Facebook and I can't remember. Keep the links, yeah.

58:52 I'm not on, I'm not on X or some of the other ones, but yeah. Me neither, me neither. Sam, obviously. Well, thanks again, Lauren. Of course. Soon. Thank you so much again for having me, I loved it.