How to Write About Family Without Repeating the Past | Monica Macansantos

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Welcome to this episode of the
Holly Hughes Podcast.

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Today I'm very excited to be
speaking with Monica

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Makinsantos, who is the author
of Returning to my Father's

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Kitchen and Love and Other
Rituals.

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Yes, this book, this book had so
many of my issues that I kind of

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feel like, you know, I am an
intuitive healer as well and I

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have like my own self help book
and all of that.

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But there's something about your
stories that are so antithetical

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to my relationship with my
father, right?

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That all my daddy issues that
you have so much love.

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You have all these beautiful,
I'm going to use the word savory

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stories of love in about a
father and his daughter that it

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was kind of healing to read.
I'm so glad that you felt that

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Holly.
My father had a complicated

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relationship with his father and
I mentioned that in the book I

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write about it.
His was abusive, but art and

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writing enabled him to process
that relationship and to find

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love for his father despite the
abuse and despite the hurt.

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So when his father died, like he
still had love for his father.

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And I think that I guess it's
like dangerous to say that you

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have to forgive your parents for
abusing you.

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That's that's not something I
agree with.

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But on the other hand, you can
process this difficult

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relationship in the way that it
doesn't poison your

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relationships with your
children.

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It doesn't recycle generational
trauma.

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So in one of the essays in this
book, A Shared stillness, it's

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about like my grandparents, my
father's parents, being the

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tango champions of their
hometown in the Philippines.

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And it's about like them finding
joy amidst the hurt and how my

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father was able to see that
because he was an artist, he was

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a writer.
And I that's why I believe in

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the power of art and writing to,
well, rescue our sense of hope

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in the world that feels so
bleak.

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So crazy right now.
I think what I also liked about

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that story is that you also
learned to tango.

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Yeah.
How was that for you?

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Because I talk about this with
another guest of mine.

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Her name is Jamie Rose.
She also studies tango and is an

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amazing dancer.
But there is a surrender and

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trust with your partnership in
that dance that you are leaning

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in and being a really good guide
is applying.

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I call it pressure on your back
and and making you move.

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Did you always know the history
of the trouble between your dad

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and his parents, or was that
something you only learned

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later?
Well, I learned about it when I

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was a kid.
Like my father was an open book.

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He didn't believe in keeping
secrets and this is not very

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common among Filipino parents
and Filipino fathers like

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Filipinos are tend to be more
reserved when it comes to like

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their like personal troubles but
not my father.

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He didn't believe in that so.
He was a poet, right?

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He and nonetheless, like I know
a lot of children of writers who

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didn't like have the same
relationship they had with my

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father.
Like their their parents were

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open and frank on the page, but
they weren't like open and frank

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with their kids.
So in that sense, my father, I

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think.
I identify with that just a

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little.
Some things I want to shelter

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right, my own daughter from from
my past.

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I'm like, you don't really need
to know that way, but it's there

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on the page whenever you're
ready to explore that way.

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But I don't need to hoist that
on you sometimes, like I go that

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way, yeah.
Oh, yeah, and like I, I'm sure

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my father chose not to share
certain things with me.

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Like we all share, choose what
to share and what not to share.

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But he shared with me like I
think of Port Fortune, like

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aspects of his story, his
difficult relationship with his

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father.
And he was, from the moment I

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learned that my grandparents
were the tango champions of Zan

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Blanca, like, I knew that my
father was like very proud of

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them.
Like, he saw that as like one of

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their shining achievements.
And I think it's also because he

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saw that he understood the
reason why they stayed together

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despite the abuse from my
grandfather.

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And not that like I approve of
people like staying with their

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abusive partners, but like he
came to an understanding of the

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relationship and he saw the joy
in it.

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And I didn't understand why they
stayed together or until I

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learned to tango myself in New
Zealand.

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Like that gave me another
opening into a relationship that

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I knew about when I was since I
was a kid, but which I didn't

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quite understand.
Because like when I learned to

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tango in New Zealand, I was
getting over this weird breakup.

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Like I was healing my heart.
And the person who taught gave

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me at my first tango lesson
happened to be that person who

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broke my heart.
So.

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It was very strange, but Lynn, I
liked the dance.

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And then after we broke up, I
was like, that's it.

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Is that the final tango lesson
I'll ever take?

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So I was intrigued and I was
taking other dance lessons like

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Lindy and I actually enjoyed
Lindy a lot.

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It's just that they stopped
giving the class at the

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university where I was doing my
PhD.

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So like I think that if they
continued that class, I would

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have gone on the Lindy route.
That's.

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Very different movement, like
the Lindy to tango.

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Your body is totally different,
the rhythms are totally

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different.
That's amazing.

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That's true.
On the other hand, the guy who

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was teaching the Lindy class
told me that Lindy is the North

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American sister of Tango.
OK, We'll just let them have

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that like we don't need to.
Like.

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We'll just, we'll just go there.
I'm trying to think now, how can

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I bridge all of that dancing
with all the food, right?

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Like in your stories?
I mentioned in my, my essay

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collection, I learned how to
cook when I was living abroad

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because like in the Philippines,
eating out is relatively

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inexpensive and they have what
you would call they're like

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roadside eateries where you can
get like a lunch for cheap.

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So, and like whenever I went
home, like I was living away

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from home even in the
Philippines, but when I'd go

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home for the weekend, like I'd
go home like probably every

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month from work and my dad would
cook for me.

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So like I just care about
cooking.

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But when you when you mentioned
like sensory memories, I think

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about just sitting at my
father's kitchen at his kitchen

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table watching him cook.
And sometimes like he'll ask me

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to help like peel a carrot or
stuff and stuff.

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But sometimes and but sometimes
he would just ask me to sit

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there and accompany him because
he'd feel lonely if he was just

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cooking alone.
And I now I understand why he

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didn't want to ask me for help
because now that I'm a cook

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myself, like I'm very
controlling about the way like

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carrots are Julianned or like I
can't have somebody else do it,

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like messing things up.
Like I, it just has to be me in

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control.
So, and I think that's one of

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the, it's one of the reasons why
I ended up like as a cook abroad

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because there'd be Filipino
restaurants abroad and some of

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them wouldn't be very good.
So I was in Austin, TX in the

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early 20 tens for my MFA and
there were like I guess 2

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Filipino restaurants.
I went to one of them.

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It was not good.
And then I think there was a new

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Filipino restaurant that opened
up after I left and it was good,

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but I was gone.
So.

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But anyway, like I wanted to
make Filipino food the way my

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father made it for me.
So I had to look up this fruit

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when I was reading your work
because I know I'm kind of manic

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in general as a creative person.
Like I have those moments where

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I'm so creative or I'm so in the
flow and everything else goes

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away.
And then there's times like, oh,

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I have life.
I have all these bills I have to

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do, but I really love learning
and experiencing other people

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and cultures.
And I think you're a similar

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person because you have lived
everywhere on the planet.

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But you talk about the the
calamandi.

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Calamansi.
Calamansi, yeah, in the seeds.

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And so like, how would you
describe this necessary

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ingredient for people who maybe
have never tried it?

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Oh, so a lot of Filipinos
actually don't use calamansi?

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Really, a lot of them use wait
vinegar because it's just

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easier.
You just fill your teaspoon with

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vinegar and then put in in the
dish.

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But and it's if you're lazy,
just use vinegar, but 'cause

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then Muncie just makes it
special because it's well, it's

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a citrus fruit.
It's tiny, it's like that big

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and it looks like a lemon, but
it's rounder and it's, it's

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flavor is more tart and it's
more earthy.

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It's more rounded.
So I write in my in that essay

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in the book about how my father
told me, oh, in the States,

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you'll probably have to use
lemons and they just, it's not

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the same, but it'll do and.
I would like everyone who's not

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being able to watch this video
if you could see her expression

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right now as she is explaining
her father's utter disdain for

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the lemon.
It's like a total disappointment

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of those Americans.
It's a lemon, Yeah.

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What can you do?
You have to.

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Turn on fish and in a drink,
whatever.

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Oh yeah, but what Kalamansi like
I I think in the Philippines

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they're making Kalamansi
margaritas now.

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They're really.
Good, There you go.

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Yeah.
But anyway, back to the

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Kalamansi fruit, like it's
mainly available.

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It grows in Southeast Asia and I
think that like it's earthiness

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brings you back home.
It brings you back like to the

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ground from which it comes from.
Like it's not well, it is like

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produced in industrial
quantities in the Philippines,

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but it doesn't feel like an
engineered fruit.

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It's.
Yeah, I get that.

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I get that.
I totally.

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So let's talk about home for
you, because you travel and you

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go places and you have gotten
your education all over the

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planet, right in the States and
New Zealand.

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But you are Filipino, you are
from the Philippines and your

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father is an award-winning poet.
Did you leave the Philippines

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because of the, how should I put
it, the disappointing

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relationship that he had with
the literary community?

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Did he tell you go somewhere
else or was there just

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opportunities for you?
I think it was both because,

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well, I spent my early childhood
in the States.

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My mom was a Fulbright scholar
in Delaware.

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That's how she learned her PhD
math and we returned home after

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she finished her PhD.
And I don't know how to explain

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it, but I guess Americans take
it for granted.

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Like the expansiveness of the
United States and how there's

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this mentality that like, if you
want to get something, all you

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have to do is go out and get it.
And because the world is big,

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because the US is huge compared
to that, the Philippines is a

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small country and you will feel
the the limits of its borders

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pressing on you when you live in
the Philippines.

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And I mean, I love.
That I haven't even thought

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about that, you know, like
America is ginormous.

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I have not thought about borders
as limits.

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And I like that.
I've talked to Englishmen who've

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said the same thing, and New
Zealanders feel that like the

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reason why they left their
countries and explored the

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States a little bit before going
home, like New Zealand or

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England, is that they just felt
a little limited.

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And like, you can have a large
life in the Philippines.

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But when I was a kid, like I
wanted to expand my horizons a

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bit and to see the states again
and to experience the largeness

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and the opportunities of the
offered by the US.

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So I thought of doing my NFA in
the States.

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But apart from that, like I feel
that if conditions in the

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literary community were more
favorable for my father and I, I

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may have gotten comfortable and
I may have stayed in the

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Philippines.
I may have gone to grad school

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in the Philippines, which would
have been all right.

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I know a lot of like amazing
writers who have done like their

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graduate studies in the
Philippines and never really

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left or leave once in a while,
but not for prolonged periods.

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But so it's, I guess because the
conditions were not ideal.

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I mentioned this in the book,
there's a lot of nepotism in the

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literary community in the
Philippines.

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And it's not like something
that's unique to Filipino

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00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:14,320
culture because like I have
heard similar stories about like

227
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,680
literary communities in smaller
countries like New Zealand.

228
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:24,120
I heard from friends who are
writers in New Zealand can be

229
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,200
like that too.
But conditions were particularly

230
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,840
toxic in the Philippines.
And I wonder if it has something

231
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,440
to do with our colonial
experience and this sense of

232
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,880
having to have a hierarchy and
having to have a leader whom you

233
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,960
suck up to and to whom you T
through your entire career.

234
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:50,360
Like I hear like similar stories
about Japanese society, how like

235
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,600
you have your patron and you
have to be loyal to that patron.

236
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,400
And then if your patron, like, I
mean like experiences some

237
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,600
troubles, I mean, if shit hits
the fan for that guy, then it's

238
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,320
over for you too.
It's, it's similar in the

239
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,360
Philippines.
And I I didn't like it, I think.

240
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,240
It was like that in Italy back
in the day too, or any place,

241
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,760
right, Because our US artists
don't get to make our own money,

242
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,120
right?
Without the patron, without the

243
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,200
whatever.
I think for me, like there's two

244
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,040
things that's happening in my
head as I'm listening to you.

245
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,960
I was like, I grew up in a
pretty small town, right?

246
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,720
You know, And for me, I imagine
those borders were the same

247
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,440
where most of us talked about
leaving and a lot of people

248
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,320
actually moved back.
And I find that fascinating.

249
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,840
Some of them have started
listening to the podcast and I'm

250
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,880
get messages from them saying
it's so cool to have known you

251
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,200
and see what you've become as if
I'm so far away.

252
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,480
I'm not that far, you know, I'm
a couple states away.

253
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:51,400
But I, I find those of us who
feel places might trap us, that

254
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,640
we look for other places to
build and bridge communities.

255
00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,920
So I think what I really like
about what I've learned about

256
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,800
you is that you're like, I have
a globe.

257
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,880
There is a globe and I'm going
to apply and I'm gonna go there

258
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,920
and then I'm gonna find more
community and and it's I don't

259
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,560
know that it's surprising that
you do.

260
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,280
Or do people call you brave and
you're like, Oh my God, there

261
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:19,640
she goes.
Yeah, she's.

262
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,800
New Zealand.
And there she goes to Texas.

263
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,640
And where'd she go?
Oh, now she's in now in Georgia,

264
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,760
of course, obviously.
So yeah.

265
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,160
Like before this, I was in Las
Vegas for a year.

266
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,160
What leads you so you apply?
Do you like research?

267
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,600
Where to apply?
What brings you places?

268
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,600
I'm so curious right?
Like everyone knows I'm obsessed

269
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,440
with Korea right?
But like what started that?

270
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,200
I watched AK drama during
lockdown and I just have never

271
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,120
left.
Like my brain, there's some part

272
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,760
of my heart that's there.
I find it fascinating.

273
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,200
So what makes you, if I was a
student, I would probably try to

274
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,240
find a way to be there for a
semester.

275
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,720
Do you know, to be able to like,
absorb it all?

276
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,400
You know, we're talking about
different languages, different

277
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,480
accents, different cultures, and
you're be bopping all through

278
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,720
all of that.
It's up for Europe, but it's

279
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,400
like.
They're a little slow on the

280
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,800
upkeep.
OK, We can't, we can't all be

281
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,079
like us here in the South.
But what made you throw the dirt

282
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:15,280
in land?
I don't know.

283
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,880
It's just that as you have
mentioned, it's hard to come by

284
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,040
these opportunities, like these
writerly opportunities in a

285
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,760
single place.
And what happens with me is that

286
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,840
like I, I get tired of where I
am.

287
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,560
Like when I was applying to MFA
programs in the States, I had a

288
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,200
teaching job in the Philippines
and it was, it was a good job.

289
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:45,040
Like I enjoyed teaching, but
there weren't that many

290
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,800
opportunities for advancement.
Like they told us, like you can

291
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,200
take your master's degree, but
also while teaching and then

292
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,720
we'd have to commute to Manila
and then it I'd have to be on

293
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,760
buses twice a week while
teaching like a four, four load.

294
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,360
I was like, I'm not doing that.
Apart from that, like I was also

295
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:09,320
ready to take the leap and why I
think I'm reckless.

296
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,920
I just look for the like how
cushy the opportunity is more

297
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,800
than where it is.
So with Texas, like this MFA

298
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,440
program that took me in, like
the Mitchener Center, it had the

299
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,400
best funding package of all the
MFA programs I looked at.

300
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,480
And apart from that, like it was
a little safe because I have

301
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:37,240
relatives in Houston, so they're
like a little close and apart

302
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,400
from that, like I just don't
think I'm not.

303
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,160
So when?
Wait, wait, that is the quote of

304
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,720
the day.
I I'm a writer, but I, I just

305
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:50,880
don't.
I just like man.

306
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,920
I don't.
Think about these things like I

307
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,680
should.
But that's the beauty I know.

308
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,240
But I think that's an adventurer
though.

309
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,920
Don't you think that you must
have some adventurers hard

310
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,000
besides being sentimental, which
I think you are, and I think you

311
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,080
actually have quite an amazing
talent in in this collection of

312
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,720
essays you really do go from
from all those words that I've

313
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,200
read other people describe your
work as like that hauntingness,

314
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,760
that eeriness, right?
Like those, I could tell that

315
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,920
they're conscious choices,
right?

316
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,240
But they're they're very
unconscious to read.

317
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,800
Meaning I know you put in the
work, but I don't feel the work.

318
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,000
I just get to enjoy it.
I'm.

319
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,720
I'm glad you feel that about my
work, yeah.

320
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,240
Thank you.
And then your your stories like

321
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,440
switch up right then you go to
the psycho like landlady and a

322
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,120
few which is one of my
favorites.

323
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,280
I don't know why people don't
talk about this one more, but I

324
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,560
think that also comes to like
part of your personality, right?

325
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,160
We're not authors.
We're not like one thing.

326
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,640
We have those Moody things, we
have the missing, we have

327
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,520
curiosity.
I think I'm strangely

328
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,680
sentimental about the smallest
of things every time I'm reading

329
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,000
your work as I reread it, cuz
that's who I am.

330
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,880
I have my grandma's chopping
bowl.

331
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,480
Like it's this wood bowl.
It's beat to shit.

332
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,920
Honestly.
It's like I I would hold it up

333
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,240
but.
And I'm not getting up.

334
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:13,280
So it's this wooden.
She had a single blade that she

335
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,000
chopped like she lived in a
Brooklyn apartment.

336
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,680
Her kitchen was a stove and a
sink.

337
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,360
And she put a cutting board over
the stove like, there's no other

338
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,360
space to do it right and
whatever.

339
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,360
And she would cook for like 12
people in the space that was 3

340
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:29,560
feet by two feet, right?
All of these.

341
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,240
But when she passed, I took her
chopping bowl.

342
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,160
I took an oven Mitt and I took
that blade and I have them in

343
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,320
the drawer in my kitchen.
And every now and again when I'm

344
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,040
cooking, I pull it out and I'm
like with my grandma, right?

345
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,760
And like to me super
sentimental.

346
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,400
So like I, I connect to my own
story reading yours even though

347
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:57,040
our stories are different.
Yeah, like I I can connect to

348
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,360
that story so hard.
And I think it's also one of the

349
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:06,120
reasons why despite all my
travels, I remain very much

350
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,960
heath to my homeland and my
hometown.

351
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,680
So I think it's one of the
reasons why I like cooking.

352
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,800
It reminds me of my father.
Like I, I told you a while ago

353
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,560
that I hate cooking, but I, I
like it.

354
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,360
And apart from that, like with
tango, like going back to tango,

355
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,200
like I couldn't let go of that
lesson.

356
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,280
Like I had to learn tango
because it connected me not just

357
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,800
to a future in which I could
find other partners and other

358
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,200
ways of trusting people and that
would include lovers and

359
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,720
friends, but it also connect me
back to the past with my

360
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,880
grandparents and the like.
Their like resilience and their

361
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,560
ability to find joy in very
difficult situations.

362
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,840
Like they also lived through the
Philippine American war and like

363
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,960
World War 2 and they still
continue dancing despite all the

364
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:10,560
traumas they went through.
So I feel that like our efforts

365
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,720
to remain connected with in your
case, your grandmother, mother

366
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,120
in my case, like my family on
both sides, like my father and

367
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:24,720
my mother gives us grounding.
And it like in my case, even if

368
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,560
I travel a lot, I, I feel, I
still feel that like I'm

369
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:34,720
anchored onto the ground and
that enables me to find to be

370
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,400
connected to my homeland, but
also feel that like Georgia can

371
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,440
be home even just for three
months.

372
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,080
I can possibly write a story
about this place or Las Vegas

373
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,600
can be home instead of like me
being like this feather floating

374
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,520
around and not having any
anchoring.

375
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,680
I'm still like part of this
earth, this world.

376
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,160
Is there a dish you cook like
the first meal in every place to

377
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,560
do anything like that?
I wish I did that in Las Vegas

378
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,680
because no.
OK, I did that.

379
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,320
But you cook?
Yeah, there was a seafood city

380
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,560
and which is like a Filipino
chain supermarket.

381
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,040
It's just that like Filipino
ingredients where were much more

382
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:20,280
available in Las Vegas.
So like here there's an Asian

383
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,320
market.
It's not that close to where I

384
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,000
live.
So I have I haven't ventured to

385
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,360
the Asian market yet.
They're all judging you.

386
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,960
They're all judging you.
Yeah, sorry.

387
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,360
It's just a jet lag, man.
That's a piece.

388
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,840
It's like the and and yeah, the
South is different.

389
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,600
It's very different, especially.
Like where are you experienced?

390
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,760
So you've been in Texas and now
you're in Georgia.

391
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,840
Very different.
Oh yeah.

392
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,640
Oh yeah, Texas is just what I
mean.

393
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,560
It's the South.
It's South adjacent.

394
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,520
I guess.
Texas is Texas.

395
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,640
Georgia is the South.
Well, yeah.

396
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,760
Well, this where I am.
Columbus.

397
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,920
It's just like Carson
Mccullers's birthplace.

398
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,960
And I have the honor of living
in her childhood home, which was

399
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,360
a dream.
Like sometimes I wonder if this

400
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,400
house is haunted like me.
I.

401
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,440
Think it probably is.
It's got to be.

402
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,160
I don't know.
Georgia's a tough state for me

403
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,080
to.
I was just down there touring a

404
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,240
college, actually, with my
child, and there is something

405
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,760
about the state of Georgia
again, because I can see dead

406
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,280
people.
And when I cross that border,

407
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,720
I'm telling you, energetically,
it is heavy.

408
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,560
For me it is, yeah.
Like it?

409
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,280
It felt different.
Trippy.

410
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,240
It's a it's a lot.
There's a lot going on there.

411
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:39,480
Is it kind of like Louisiana?
Different vibe because the for

412
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,680
me, although I haven't been to
like New Orleans in a long time,

413
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,720
I wasn't quite as in tune or in
control of what I see in here as

414
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,560
much as I guess that's the best
way to put it.

415
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,400
Like I can tell things to leave
me alone, but what happens is

416
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,040
when I'm around, I guess the
best way to call it is a ghost.

417
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,480
And we'll tell.
Maybe we could talk about like

418
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,880
how you define ghosts and
apparitions because like you

419
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:01,840
play with that a bit, right?
And you're writing.

420
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,440
But I think like for me, I get
this wicked headache and I get

421
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,920
super dizzy and it feels like
I'm not in my body.

422
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,920
So it's if you ever had a head
rush when you stand up too quick

423
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,560
and you're like dizzy.
So I feel like that when there's

424
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,080
dead things around.
And in Georgia, there's a lot of

425
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,240
slave, There's a lot of dead
slaves there, right?

426
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,920
And then in New Orleans, there
is as well, but the Creole

427
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,960
culture and their belief system
and all of their, I don't want

428
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,200
to be disrespectful, but I'm
going to say hoodoo voodoo,

429
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,440
right?
You know, they have their own

430
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,600
way of doing things.
And basically when I'm in that

431
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,280
space, I just ask for protection
and not to connect to it, which

432
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,800
is a different vibe for me than
seeing like a bunch of dead

433
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,960
people.
Yeah, dead people with unsettled

434
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,440
or unresolved business.
I don't oh see, like you add,

435
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,680
most people add like for me, I
don't know, it's not often like

436
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,920
that.
Well, Filipinos, I can't make a

437
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,880
blanket statement because I know
a lot of Filipinos who do not

438
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,720
believe in ghosts, but it's a
culture that encourages like,

439
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,360
beliefs in the other world, the
other world, but like, and a lot

440
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:14,760
of people in the Philippines
believe in ghosts.

441
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,320
Yeah.
And I think that, well, thinking

442
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:23,160
about where I am right now,
Georgia, like there's a lot of

443
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:28,040
hurt in the history.
There's a lot, well, there in

444
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,000
the, in the case of Georgia,
there's enslavement and there's

445
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,760
like a lot of inequality that
like persists to this day.

446
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,640
And in the case of the
Philippines, like we went

447
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,800
through several world wars, we
had several colonizers, we had

448
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,520
the Spanish, we have the
Americans, the Japanese.

449
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,040
So this is another blanket
statement that I shouldn't make.

450
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:54,240
But like, a lot of Filipinos
aren't very good at processing

451
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,280
the past or talking about
difficult subjects.

452
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,200
Like it's well, we're known to
be loud, but at the same time

453
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,720
we're also a very repressed
society, so that.

454
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,640
Explains my other Filipino
friend.

455
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,200
That it's just like the perfect
combination of like his

456
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,840
personality like that.
He's actually quite emotional.

457
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,880
I I always say it leaks, right?
Like he's trying to control it

458
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,080
but it leaks.
Yeah.

459
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,720
Well, since you mentioned that
there's a hauntingness about my

460
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:34,960
work and like, my work is about
like having the past bear down

461
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,200
on you, even if you tried to
escape it.

462
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,680
I feel that like, well, maybe,
well, it's partly cultural

463
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,120
because like we have these
secrets that we don't talk about

464
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:47,520
but and then end up following us
around.

465
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,200
And I don't know, because while
I was living in Las Vegas before

466
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,880
this, I was living there for
nine months.

467
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,680
And it's a city that strives to
erase the past like it's all

468
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,240
about looking to the.
Does it have a past?

469
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,040
Yeah, that's the thing.
That's the thing.

470
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,000
That's last thing because it
just blows up its old casinos.

471
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,640
It's so American, though.
Yeah, it's very, it's very

472
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:08,560
American.
And.

473
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:09,880
I I mean I could.
Go there.

474
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,720
If you could just go.
I, you won't insult me.

475
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,200
Like we think about our history.
American history is very short

476
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,920
and we still are not learning it
right?

477
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,680
Like, oh, yeah.
Like I think for me, listening

478
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,120
to some of what happens, it
literally something happened in

479
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,680
my my child's high school and
she called, I'm going to, I'm

480
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,800
going to be honest, she called
her rabbi because what they were

481
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,080
teaching was so wrong, but the
teacher wasn't believing her.

482
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,400
Like they were using words so
incorrectly.

483
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,280
And it's in books and it's just
everywhere.

484
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,200
And it's, I'm like, I don't
understand.

485
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,800
But I think from my perspective
as an older, a woman and past

486
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,600
her midpoint in life, right, is
that there's an idea of fairness

487
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,200
in the world and there's a
history and there's feelings and

488
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,280
facts have somehow gotten
filtered in between all of that,

489
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,840
right?
Like the emotion of that's

490
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:12,400
horrible or that's terrible or
Oh my God, that hurts supersedes

491
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,320
well, it did happen.
And this is kind of how it

492
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,280
happened.
And this these are the results

493
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,960
and the consequences of that.
And there can be correction and

494
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,160
there can be conversation, but
it when you erase.

495
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,760
Yeah, then you lose truth.
On some level, and I think as

496
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,760
writers, we're always trying to
go for a truth.

497
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,400
Yeah, and that's what that
happens a lot in the Filipino

498
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,400
community and well.
Yeah, Does it?

499
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:40,240
How does it?
How?

500
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,800
There's a lot of.
There's a lot of historical

501
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,560
revisionism about the
marquesses, Like, well, I mean,

502
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,520
they were, it's a horrible
family.

503
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,120
And then all of a sudden they're
like, oh, like what?

504
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,640
When they were in power, it was
like the best time we had the

505
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,520
best time ever, which is not
true.

506
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,000
That's that's when like
Filipinos started like really

507
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,600
leaving the Philippines because
we packed the economy.

508
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,400
And I mean, they're like human
rights abuses, but they're, I

509
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,920
mean, especially right now with
another mark was in charge.

510
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,280
They're they're like, oh, the
people who were like who

511
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,400
experienced human rights abuses.
They went through that because

512
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,600
they were activists and because
of their activism, like they

513
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,640
asked for it.
It's just like not true.

514
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,600
And then I think that a lot of
cultures that went through

515
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,320
colonialism do this
automatically as a means for

516
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,560
self preservation in a way,
because you don't want to feel

517
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:41,120
too hurt that somebody would
intentionally hurt you or

518
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,280
diminish your power.
So like, how do you cope with

519
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,600
that?
Like by making making excuses

520
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,400
for your oppressor.
And that's what is what is the

521
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,720
that's the root of a lot of
historical revisionism.

522
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,720
OK, let's let's go into your
crazy landlady from there.

523
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:58,680
Oh my.
Because I think.

524
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,520
That is one of my I think you
were so kind in that store in

525
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,160
your essay, because I know
there's more.

526
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,120
Oh, like, I'm.
Yeah, like, she even, she asked

527
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,560
her neighbor to cut down her
tree because, like, she didn't

528
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,320
like looking at the tree.
So.

529
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,800
But anyway, I published an
excerpt from that essay in a New

530
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,160
Zealand outlet.
And like, the guy who published

531
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,920
it went on to write a review of
the book just, like, centering

532
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,360
on that essay and another essay
about the car accident and then

533
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,520
like, just a few others.
And then he told me that I he

534
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:46,400
said in his review that I had a
victim like complex and that

535
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,680
like I that I was whiny in the
land did.

536
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,720
He read what I read.
I know I was nuts.

537
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,840
Whatever.
Yes, yeah.

538
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:57,760
And then I was like.
What?

539
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,680
Where do I need to send the
e-mail?

540
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,520
Tell me now, I'll be like.
Yeah, wrong.

541
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,360
And also what?
Because like when I tell that

542
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,080
story to other people, like
there was another podcaster I

543
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,720
was talking to last week who
said what he he was like, you

544
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,240
were just telling the story of
it.

545
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,160
You were just like very
straightforward.

546
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,760
It wasn't like, in fact, like
you weren't telling us that this

547
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,400
is a bad person.
You're just telling us what

548
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,880
happened and it was like.
I think you were too nice

549
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,520
because she had no boundaries
and it was that was just so

550
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,400
crazy.
Well, this is like the

551
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,760
consequence of me not thinking
before moving to another

552
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,520
country.
So in my case, like I finished

553
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,880
an MFA in Texas and then people
were asking what's next?

554
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,120
And then I could have done a PhD
in the States, but it was like

555
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,440
very coarse work, heavy.
And I kind of like at 26 years

556
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,520
old, I wanted to see the world.
And I guess I, like just gave

557
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,160
the globe spin.
I was like New Zealand apart

558
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,640
from that.
I met in my MFA program a woman

559
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,000
who had done her MFA at this
creative writing program housed

560
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,960
at Victoria University in
Wellington.

561
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,240
And they also had a PhD program.
And she had good things to say

562
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:15,720
about the people who taught
there.

563
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,600
So I applied.
I got in.

564
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,320
I didn't like, we didn't know
anybody in New Zealand like my

565
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,840
parents, they thought I was
crazy going to New Zealand, but

566
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,400
they were like, OK, it has a
good safety record and then it

567
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,320
looks like it looks like
Switzerland in picture.

568
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,640
So you'll be safe.
I we hope.

569
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,000
And then so I with.
Film Lord of the Rings there,

570
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,880
it's fine, it's fine.
And then like I.

571
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,320
You might find a Hobbit, it's
good.

572
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,520
Yeah, I thought it was like
this.

573
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:46,040
I knew that no country is
perfect, but I didn't think that

574
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,920
like I'd get into this landlady
situation.

575
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,400
So what happened was that like I
had a hard time looking for a

576
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,880
place to stay And then it was
just like it would have been

577
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,960
expensive to for me to stay at
the hostel before like finding

578
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,400
like a more permanent place to
stay.

579
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,720
So I was like, anyway, my
program, one of the assistants

580
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:11,080
at my program found this posting
in their the student paper or it

581
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,400
was it like the university
community like bulletin board.

582
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,080
So like I, that's how I found
her.

583
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,840
And Oh my fuck, she was, she was
like racist.

584
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,920
She was like she would.
So the title of that essay is I

585
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,440
do not know how it is in your
country because the the full

586
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,040
line was like, I do not know how
it is in your country, but here

587
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,480
we open the windows to let in
fresh air.

588
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,199
And my jaw dropped because I've
lived in Texas for three years.

589
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,480
Texas is not the most
progressive, is not known to be

590
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,159
the most progressive place on
earth, but I've never heard

591
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,440
something as racist as that
throughout my time in Texas.

592
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,320
So and then I thought that you
know how it is like you want

593
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,160
her, she.
Was treating you like you worked

594
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:01,840
for her.
Oh.

595
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,200
Yeah, and I was, oh, I she was
overcharging me.

596
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,600
And like, she she wouldn't let
me use her condiments.

597
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,160
I know.
It's so I was so weird.

598
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:15,840
Yeah.
And then when I found out that

599
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,600
she was overcharging me,
whenever she'd leave, like, I

600
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,280
just pour just condiments into
my food.

601
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,720
And she like no boundaries.
Like I for me, it was so strange

602
00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:32,720
coming from a country that is
believed to have no boundaries.

603
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:35,680
So Philippines.
I'm Asian, but this is not this

604
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,800
is so horrifyingly.
She was so horrifyingly naggy

605
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,560
and asked, she'd asked me like,
why are you like, why are you in

606
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,360
your room?
Because I'm.

607
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,720
I lived here, I don't know
everyone.

608
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:53,960
You were everyone you really
this the Her story and Monica's

609
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,640
stories about her dad really are
quite beautiful, but this story

610
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,920
is unhinged and it's a delight
in the best possible way.

611
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,120
I think we could add a little
dash of Japanese horror and then

612
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,160
like we can have someone with
long black hair walking

613
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,200
backwards on their.
Toes and like Oh yeah, my my

614
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,320
friend in Las Vegas was telling
me why don't you write a

615
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,280
Southern Gothic story called
because like I had a bad

616
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,920
experience yesterday at length
blind dancing class.

617
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,960
So he was like blind dancing
with the devil.

618
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:28,760
How like my Kiwi landlady from
hell haunted in Columbus, GA?

619
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,840
I love it, I think.
I think that you know, that's a

620
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,080
good.
You never know.

621
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,480
You never know what some awesome
thing will happen with it.

622
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,520
Yeah.
And did you take line dancing,

623
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:40,520
though?
Are you taking like?

624
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,600
I took one class like I'm taking
salsa dancing, which I enjoy

625
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,880
more because there's a
connection and then you're

626
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,520
giving yourself up, you're
surrendering to somebody else's,

627
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,400
which I like with line dancing
that the class was, was fun.

628
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,640
It was just the gym.
Like I, I had this weird

629
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,600
exchange with the people at the
gym.

630
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,480
Like I won't really go into it
anywhere.

631
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,480
But basically I thought that
because of the the director of

632
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,280
this program where I am, the
Carson Mccullers Center told me,

633
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,080
like, you can get into the gym
for free.

634
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,280
I can write you a letter and
then you can use the gym for

635
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,720
free.
And past fellows have been using

636
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:16,960
that letter and then getting
into the gym for free.

637
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,200
And then to like yesterday, like
they just raised the fuss over

638
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,800
it.
Like I'd been to the gym several

639
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,600
times using that letter.
And then all of a sudden they're

640
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,240
like, we're not sure if you can
still do this.

641
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:31,200
And but they let me, I will let
you in today.

642
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,720
So it just left a bad taste in
the mouth for me.

643
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:35,480
Like, why did I, like, go into
it?

644
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,360
Yeah.
So anyway, yeah, Line dancing

645
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,600
with the devil.
Yes.

646
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,600
It just pissed me off.
So are you are?

647
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,720
What else are you working?
What kind of stories are you

648
00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:48,120
working on while you are here?
Yeah.

649
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,600
Yeah, so I recently finished
another edit on a novel that I

650
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,720
was actually my PhD thesis in
New Zealand.

651
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,280
It's about the martial law, the
martial law years and also

652
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,960
keeping secrets and being
haunted by secrets.

653
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,680
So there was an agent who was
interested in and I'm not sure

654
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,720
if she'll take it on.
I hope, I hope she does.

655
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:13,040
But like, she requested for an
R&R or revising use of this.

656
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,240
So like, I was working on that
during the first few weeks and

657
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:19,360
I, I thought it was done.
And then like, I went over again

658
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:20,640
here.
And then I was like, Oh yeah,

659
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,200
there's a lot of work I can
still do on this thing.

660
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,240
So thank you, Carson
Mcculloughs, for the space and

661
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:28,720
energy.
Yeah, don't rush that.

662
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:31,120
There's there.
There's no timeline on an RNR.

663
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,160
Oh yeah, take your time.
And also, by the way, you know

664
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,760
that agents are really just
testing you how you take notes.

665
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,880
All right, so anyway, I like.
As you're as you're doing it, my

666
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,960
I will have to caveat because
I'm sure somewhere in Spaceland

667
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,880
is going to be like Mert Mert.
But really my experience about

668
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,280
20 something years in publishing
is that a lot of time and I got

669
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,360
7 for my book, by the way, 7R
and Rs.

670
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,680
And a lot of times their
response was you did exactly

671
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:58,680
what I asked for.
Thank you.

672
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,640
I don't know how to sell it.
That was their response back.

673
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,520
It's like, why'd you make me go
do all that work?

674
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,280
But it is there's just seeing if
your communication style works,

675
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,240
if you understand what they're
saying and they want you to

676
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,680
obviously fix something as well,
but that's it's part of the

677
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,560
working relationship dynamic.
So.

678
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,840
OK, so anyway, we will see.
I sent her the revised draft

679
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,240
like a few days ago while
sitting in Carson Mccullers's

680
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:25,640
chair.
So I was like, I need the

681
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,240
energy.
I'm like, from this lady.

682
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,000
So anyway, now that that's done,
I am working on another novel

683
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,200
about female friendship.
Yeah.

684
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,000
Tell me about that.
Oh.

685
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,200
Yes, when we returned to the
Philippines from the States when

686
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,280
I was in 3rd grade, I befriended
this girl who was who like me

687
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,280
was 1/3 culture kid, spent much
of her time outside the

688
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,720
Philippines and she was half
white.

689
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,680
So at first we were just kids,
like hanging out, playing.

690
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,640
And then I realized that there
was something different about

691
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,360
the way people treated her and
the way people treated me.

692
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,400
So she was, well, quite
presenting.

693
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,400
I guess it's like that not short
novel Passing by Nella Larson

694
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,280
with you have this community of
like people of color and then

695
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,960
one of them is somebody who's
halfway and then like they have

696
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,840
so much power much, so much more
power than you just because of

697
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,480
race and the way we think of
race.

698
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,040
Yeah.
I would be really interested to

699
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,880
read that.
Obviously I am white, if you

700
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,200
can't tell, but you know, like
walking into dynamics or being

701
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,920
in spaces where I'm the only
white person, I do that quite a

702
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,400
lot.
And I think in my life

703
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,800
experience, I've also, I think
I've learned when to be quiet,

704
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,040
which I think is hard for a lot
of people.

705
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,960
You know, when it's not about
me, I'm here like to like either

706
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,600
be supportive or because I like
something that's going on here

707
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,840
and it's absolutely not about
me, but I'm curious about it.

708
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,920
So you don't have to take front
and center type of mentality, at

709
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,680
least that that's like my
experience and kind of how I do

710
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:14,920
things.
I think if I do take front and

711
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,640
center, it's maybe because I get
excited and I just want to

712
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,760
connect.
But I'm not like meaning to

713
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,720
whatever you talk about that
about like your communities and

714
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,520
how you like in your experience
when you were in the program in

715
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:33,680
Texas too, right?
You know how you had a your

716
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:38,000
community there.
So is there ever a time where

717
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:43,480
you're not thinking about that,
not thinking about like race and

718
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,480
identity?
And you're just like, I'm just

719
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,040
here like, I don't know how to
really ask that question.

720
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,200
I don't know.
I think that you belong to a

721
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,880
group that has been historically
oppressed.

722
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,320
Like it's automatically part of
who you are.

723
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,800
And it's not like I'm thinking
about it all the time.

724
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:06,120
I mean, this is the beauty of
writing about Filipino

725
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:12,360
experiences that are not key for
to the American experience or

726
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,760
the American project because,
and this is something that like

727
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,640
a lot of people observed about
my first book, my story

728
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:25,280
collection titled Love and Other
rituals that and I write about

729
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,320
Filipinos, They're not like
wanting to go to the states or

730
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,080
they're not like thinking about
their identity.

731
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,840
They're thinking about
themselves as human beings, as

732
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,960
we all do.
And a lot of my readers found

733
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,960
that refreshing that like these
people are just living their

734
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,200
living their lives and they're
not performing their culture for

735
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,840
an outside audience.
I think that's my baseline, that

736
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:56,880
even when I'm rating about race
or about identity, I am

737
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,360
experiencing life on my own
terms.

738
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,680
I'm not like living this
experience for someone else's

739
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,240
benefit.
Yeah, totally.

740
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,520
I get that.
I also think I also wonder in

741
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,320
like, in general, this is just
like me wondering out loud.

742
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,640
You might not have an answer.
I'm just like so fascinated

743
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,840
that, you know, like for me, my
grandparents were immigrants,

744
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,880
right?
Do you know like in and so it

745
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:28,760
wasn't such a far a long time
ago thing, right, You know, like

746
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,200
that their experience and
they're coming over or whatever.

747
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,880
So that influences, I guess,
part of my perspective of the

748
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,240
world or maybe how I view
things.

749
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,160
I just find it like fascinating
that like I think there's like a

750
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,920
whole generation who's who
thinks about that a lot in a

751
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:51,160
very different way than I do.
And I don't fully understand it

752
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,880
honestly.
Like I just, I don't, right?

753
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,400
And so like, I'm fascinated by
that.

754
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,760
I'm like, what part am I
missing?

755
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,440
What part?
What is that?

756
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,640
Like, what is that I don't like?
That is like, so for me in the

757
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,080
storytelling, it's like, oh, you
feel separate.

758
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,680
But when I read your work, I
feel so connected to you, right?

759
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,160
And so I guess like my heart is
like, oh, how do I, how do I

760
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,880
make you feel like, more
comfortable or, you know, like,

761
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,200
I don't, I don't know, like
really, Cuz they're like such

762
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,960
raw emotion.
I don't have all the right words

763
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,120
for it.
But that is often what I'm

764
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,800
wondering when I hear people
younger than me speaking and

765
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,520
like being very like identifying
with that part.

766
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:33,440
Like, I guess I like, I could
like make it simpler.

767
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,320
Like to me, there's a million
labels identifying people,

768
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:37,880
right?
But that doesn't help.

769
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,280
It just divides.
I like him like we need to like

770
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,240
like OK, yes, you that we are
have different perspectives and

771
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:47,280
we have different life
experience.

772
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,600
I guess people aren't as nice as
I hope they would be.

773
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,440
So like, instead of just being
curious and wanting to know

774
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,400
more, right, and meeting you for
who you are and what you have to

775
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,400
offer, like that's where I
start.

776
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,480
Like that's baseline Darren.
And if you're an asshole, then

777
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:04,320
I'm out.
Peace out.

778
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,160
But I'm not going to like wipe
out a bajillion people or not

779
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,560
recognize like because of I had
an encounter with, you know, one

780
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,120
or two jerks.
Like that sounds like so crazy

781
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:18,880
to me.
How do I put it like with

782
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,200
centering identity like it, I
find it.

783
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:30,240
I'm sure that like a lot of
people draw power and like

784
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,960
affirmation from this, but when
like you read a lot of like

785
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:39,760
younger writers BIOS like I am
like they'll say, for instance,

786
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:45,880
like I am bisexual, neural
divergent and and like I want to

787
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,840
encounter that in your work and
the way you see the world and

788
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,360
you don't have to impose these
labels.

789
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:57,240
That's what I mean.
Because everybody is weird and

790
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:00,520
like, that's why I wouldn't.
That's what being a human being

791
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,920
is like.
It's like you always like, I, I

792
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,040
feel like, like that I can't
read the room sometimes that

793
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,320
like, I like, I'm socially
awkward, like, and you may have

794
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,360
picked this up in my book that I
often feel like an outsider.

795
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:21,240
And I think that it's, it's not
unique to my experience as

796
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,040
somebody who moves around the
world and like just will.

797
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,160
And maybe this is like, I'm not
sure if it's like a fault in my

798
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,760
personality that like when I
there's something I don't like

799
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,560
about a certain place, I'd
rather just leave and stick it

800
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,120
out, I think.
That's just smart.

801
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,120
I hope so.
I get a lot of support from my

802
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,080
family still, which is a good
thing.

803
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,040
But like, I mean, I feel like an
outsider oftentimes.

804
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,520
But like, when I write my bio, I
won't go out there and say

805
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:56,720
Monica Moconsantos writes about
like, being an outsider, right?

806
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,480
Or that.
Yeah, yeah, we're saying the

807
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:00,960
same thing.
I think you're saying it much

808
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,440
better, but I think that's my
thing.

809
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,960
Like I don't need 1000 labels to
dissect you.

810
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,840
I wanna, like, meet you and
experience you and know your

811
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,520
work and just like, you know,
I'm talking to like, artists and

812
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,520
painters and musicians and all
of those things that are inside

813
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,280
you will come out.
Oh, yeah, we will experience

814
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,640
that.
And I haven't really interviewed

815
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,320
one person who hasn't felt like
an outsider in some way.

816
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:24,640
I.
Think it's universal to the

817
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,840
human experience.
All of us feel that we're

818
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,680
misunderstood.
I I think that like we all

819
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,280
struggle to communicate and
connect and like, even when

820
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,880
we're in like the best of
relationships, there will be

821
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,120
struggles and then for sure.
But anyway, like I, I won't in

822
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,560
my bio, I won't write like
Monica Mconsantis is 1/3 culture

823
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,160
kid.
Even if I am like, I mean,

824
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,840
that's like, I mean, it's part
of my experience, but it's not

825
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,920
front and center.
Right.

826
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:57,360
Yeah, well, I agree.
OK, So thank you for spending

827
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,320
this hour with me.
But I end every interview with

828
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,000
the same question, which is if
you came with a warning label,

829
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,440
what would it be?
We know you're what labels you

830
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,440
wouldn't use, but if you had a
warning label, what would it be?

831
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,000
Be nice or else I'll write about
you.

832
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,960
The classic writer comeback.
I have a mug that says that.

833
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,080
Don't piss off the writer.
I mean, when the landlady did

834
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,880
she just assume that I'd like,
let that, let that, like, fly?

835
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:34,120
I mean, I'm petty.
Like, that's I, I hold on to

836
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,000
past grudges.
That's like me.

837
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,600
Like, I mean, like, that's the
kind of writer I am.

838
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,360
Monica Macon Santos is haunted
by the past, and she will go

839
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,520
like she seeks justice.
So where do you want people to

840
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,200
come find you or find your work?
All right, so my first book,

841
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,320
Love in Other Rituals, and my
second book, the recently

842
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,880
released Returning to My
Father's Kitchen, can be

843
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,680
purchased forever.
Good books are sold.

844
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,520
You can request it from your
local indie bookstore.

845
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,440
You can get it on Bookshop,
Barnes and Noble, Amazon and

846
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,320
your local Public Library.
Like they might have it.

847
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,680
And if they don't, you can ask
them to order a copy to order

848
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:13,680
it.
Yeah, thank you.

849
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,880
And also Northwestern University
Press, which is the publisher of

850
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:22,080
my second book, sells copies.
So it's like a very reliable

851
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,440
supplier of my book, so.
Hey, and if you have questions

852
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,480
for Montegar, are you wanting to
know more about anything we

853
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,760
talked about?
Leave a comment please below and

854
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,560
we will respond.
So thank you so much for being a

855
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,320
guest on the Holly Hughes
Podcast.

856
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,240
We will see everyone again soon.
I hope you're inspired.