How to Write Books on 90 Minutes of Sleep (And Still Get Published) | Eugene Myers

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Well, welcome to the Holly
Hughes Podcast.

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Today I'm very excited to speak
with my guest Eugene Myers, who

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is an award-winning author, a
gamer, a streamer, a reader, a

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dad.
He has everything in his bio.

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He is vicariously all over the
Internet, but I was just saying

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before we even hit record that
he's so quiet about it.

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So I can't wait to draw you out
a little today.

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Welcome to my show.
Hi, thank you so much for

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inviting me.
I'm very excited.

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I don't know like where to
start.

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I have 17 cards of notes of
things.

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They're all scattered over here
in front of me.

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But you're bookcase, I want to
go on an adventure there

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because.
You have Yeah, yeah, it's, it's

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kind of a mess.
So this is my office and

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theoretically all of the shelves
in my office are supposed to

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have all the YA and like middle
grade books.

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But when we moved in, I guess
about four years ago, I think

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it's four years, when we were
unpacking, things got mixed up a

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little bit.
So there's some adult books back

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there as well, and some like
miscellaneous stuff and like

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gaming books and things, but.
That most of them are fun toys.

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Yeah, lots of tchotchkes.
I do not collect toys that much

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anymore.
I definitely scaled that back a

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little bit.
But these are the things that

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have accumulated since the
shelves were set up, and it's

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just array of interest, just
like some Dark Wind Duck, a

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Twilight Zone, a bunch of gaming
stuff.

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I've got my like consoles and my
handheld.

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Yeah, that those are so cool.
Those are so cool.

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I have quite a lot of Funko Pop.
I'm not really a collector of

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things, obviously.
I have a bajillion books and

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whatever.
As actually before that we

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started today, I was telling my
daughter I was going to be

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entering you because you signed
her Ruby book.

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So for her, she felt like, oh,
I'm connected to what's going on

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today.
But yeah, I Star Trek, Doctor

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Who, I kind of rotate them a
little bit.

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And then Guardians of the
Galaxy.

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So you and I first met, I can't
even remember how many years

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ago, but it was at Highlights
Foundation and you had this

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thing, you had your Alpha smart.
Oh yeah, yeah, I still have it.

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I still use it.
I am like tell me how that came

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into your life because when I
saw you writing that first I

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thought it was brilliant.
Second of all, I don't know that

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I could ever read a draft of
mine on that because I typo so

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bad in a first draft that if I
had 200 something pages of that

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many typos I would go wild.
So how does it work for you?

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Tell me how you discovered it.
So I started using it, I think

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when my son was born.
So that would have been almost

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11 years ago.
And I had a book deadline for

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the second book in my SOS
series.

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It was against all silence and I
needed to be able to write like

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very quickly because I have, I
think two months to, to draft

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and he had just been born.
So I was, I was really trying to

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figure out how am I going to be
a parent?

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I was like a full time caregiver
for him at the time I was

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freelancing and I still have a
turn in this book.

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I had a book deadline and my
laptop is really old and like

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very slow and I didn't know what
to do.

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I'm pretty sure was another
author who had talked about

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using an Alpha Smart, which is
just this dedicated word

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processor.
It has a screen that displays

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like 4 lines of text.
They used them in a lot of like

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high schools and things like
that for writing exercises and I

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decided to give it a try at the
time.

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I think I probably got it for 20
bucks.

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They've definitely gone up in
price now and it was fantastic

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because as you mentioned, you
can't really edit much as you

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go.
So it really put me in the

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mentality of I just need to get
down onto the page and just keep

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going that momentum forward.
And then I export it.

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You know, I have to transfer the
files over to my computer.

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I transfer them to Scrivener,
and that's when I do the

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revision, like the editing and
all that stuff.

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So really the focus is just like
sitting down and like putting

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out the words.
And there's no start time.

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Like you just press power and
it's on and you can go.

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And it's incredibly durable.
I've taken it to conventions and

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things when I had to write while
I was traveling, I dropped it on

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the street once and I was
horrified and it was still fine.

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It has a backup battery.
I only had one calamity with it

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when I was writing my Little
Nightmares book where I somehow

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didn't transfer file over and
then I started writing over it.

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Even then I recovered some of
it.

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I was able to recover some of it
because like through this arcane

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key combination, I was able to
restore the file by end up

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having to rewrite like a
chapter, which was really tough

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because I was again under a
tough deadline.

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But I literally just was using
it as as recently as last week.

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I'm drafting the sequel to my
Gamers, and I just transferred

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the last file over and I
polished it up in Scrivener.

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So yeah, it's been an amazing
productivity tool.

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Now, most people are aware of
the free, right, that kind of

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those dedicated word processors,
or there's just like a whole

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thread on Threaded about writer
decks where people are just

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trying to isolate their
environment so that they're not

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checking social media
constantly, where they can just

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kind of go and really focus.
It's all about focus on the

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words and without distraction.
So because like you also wrote

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the other day about about your
deadline and that you only slept

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like 90 minutes because you have
a deadline.

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So I want to know why?
Because you do these right?

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Like your own adventure things.
There's 1000 different ways that

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things can go.
Do you use Scribner then to

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organize all of that?
Are you a major plotter?

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Because that makes me
hyperventilate, like having to

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think that far ahead.
I had always been kind of like a

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pantser, right?
Like I would kind of have like

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big ideas.
I kind of had like go posts

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along the way, so I knew where I
was going to the midpoint and

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then the end of the book, but I
was just kind of making up as I

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went along.
And then there was one book that

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we haven't sold that I got stuck
on because it was very

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complicated and I sat down and I
outlined it.

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And then once I started doing
the media tie in, like the right

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for higher books, I have to
outline those because I need to

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get approvals beforehand.
And I really have discovered

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that when I have very little
time to write, and I really like

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a very short deadline, like two
or three months to write a first

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draft of a book, that outline's
been incredibly helpful because

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like, OK, I've got like 20
minutes or an hour to write.

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What am I doing?
And then I just look at the

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outline and I write that chat.
Now, even with an outline,

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there's still some room to, I'm
still making up a lot as I go,

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of course.
And the story might change a bit

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as I go depending on how much
time I have to do it.

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But it's really pretty, pretty
linear on my Alpha Smart.

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I'll generally do like a chapter
on a file and then that file

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becomes like a section in
Scrivener.

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And I don't move novels around
too much because they usually

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are fairly linear.
But when I was doing my

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interactive of books, script was
incredibly helpful because

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essentially every page, every
page had a file and I had to

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make sure that things were
linking around.

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So I'm not really a script or
power user.

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There's lots of stuff that
script can do that I don't know

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how to use it.
I mostly use it in a more

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organized way.
Version of my old workflow when

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I was using Microsoft Word
because I used to just write

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chapters individually in
Microsoft Word because from my

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background of technical writing,
I had experienced enough

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instances where a file got
corrupted that I just wanted to

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make sure that I had multiple
copies of every file.

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Many redundancies.
Scrivener just is like a neater

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way of keeping all those things
in one place.

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Sometimes I.
Learned Scrivener.

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It had too many rules.
I was like, I spend so much

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time.
I'm like, I could be just

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writing.
I'm like, I'm trying to like all

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the cards and all the notes and
the character development.

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Like I could get lost in like
that stuff.

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I'm like, oh, I'll just deep
dive in here and then.

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I'm like, yeah, I think I
started using Scrivener on

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another, the writing deadline.
I didn't have time to learn it.

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It was just like, I just got to
start working.

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And then I never went back
because when do I have free time

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to go and learn like the Mystic
arts of Scrivener?

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I just Google.
I just when I need to figure

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something out, I just Google how
to do it.

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Like how do I compile this
thing?

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How do I find and replace like
all those little things?

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How do I, you know, one of the
things I really like about

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Scrivener is being able to like
take a snapshot of your draft.

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And that way you can always roll
it back to like the previous

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version if you needed to without
having generated like multiple

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files.
That would have been really good

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for me in one book, because
sometimes I'll do it.

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I'll name it and date it.
Then I go to search for it.

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I was like, Oh my God, there's a
way too many of them, but I

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wanted the oldest version
because I didn't like all the

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edits I had done.
And I was like, I'm overwhelmed.

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I didn't really help myself at
all.

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Oh, yeah.
Or sometimes there's a sentence

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I remember writing in one draft
and I have to kind of click

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through all of them to find it.
And then a lot of the time I

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discovered that I actually
already used things that are

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worth remembering.
You do remember them?

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You know, Carrie Ryan, she uses.
I do.

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Yeah.
OK, as a writer, you probably

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feel the way I do about AI.
It's an evil, but it's here.

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What do we do?
But she uses her AI to go

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through some of her books say
how did I describe this two

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books ago?
That's interesting.

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That's really helpful because I
had to reread, I had to reread

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Gamers just before I went into
revision to make sure that I was

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being consistent character
continuity, all that stuff,

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threads that I had put in there
that I had forgotten about, that

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I needed to kind of go back to
training an AI, saw some other

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author was training an AI on his
own work.

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And I think that's a fascinating
idea and a fascinating use of

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the technology.
And as long as that's not

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getting out into the world and
other people are, you know,

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profiting off of your writing,
that's a whole other much longer

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conversation.
But I'm going to have to look

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into that and maybe I'll check
in with.

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Character, yeah, I thought that
was kind of brilliant because

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she has like series like you do
and she's like, wait what?

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How long ago?
And she has a co-author, which

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you sometimes do as well.
So that way they can keep track

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of who said what and how a
character described another one.

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Oh, I was like, that's just so
smart.

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When I was working on some of my
older books, I briefly entertain

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the idea of setting up like a
wiki because I think Nora

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Jemison does that or did that
with some of her books.

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Because when you have a lot of
continuity and a lot of lore,

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like world building, stuff like
having that.

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But again, it usually comes down
to I don't have time to do that.

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I just have to write and hope
that is going to turn out OK.

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So for me, like the little girl
in me is, Oh my God, you're

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scholastic.
You're scholastic guy.

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So like, how does that happen
and how much pressure is that

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for real to like, I don't know
how you're that prolific because

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I have all the luxury of the
luxury that I give myself.

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Do you know what I'm saying?
And if anyone goes to your

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website, right, they'll you're
like, there's not like every

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month you're putting something
out in one form or another.

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I love working with Scholastic
and I'm very happy, you know, to

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be there and looking forward to,
you know, seeing some of the

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book fairs that hopefully will
have some of my books.

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My son's just turning 11 next
month, so his book fairs are a

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little younger skewed, and I've
only just recently started doing

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some middle grade stuff, so
it'll be interesting to see if

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00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,360
some of my books start appearing
at those book fairs.

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00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,040
But how I got into it?
So when my son was born, I

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00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,120
finished up The Silence of 6
series and I had another

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00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,960
manuscript that was out on
submission and we didn't sell

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00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,600
it.
And I was really feeling kind of

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burned out because I was still
working full time, I was

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parenting.
So I still have a day job like

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00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:14,360
my other job has always been
writing and editing.

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At the time I was a development
writer at the Children's

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Hospital of Philadelphia.
And then I was freelancing for a

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little bit and then I started
working at a family designed

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00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,320
resources.
They changed their name since in

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Harrisburg and then I went to
Jefferson to work in their their

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00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,960
development office.
So I've done a lot of sort of

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healthcare related nonprofit
fundraising, like stewardship

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00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,560
type writing, but I don't
actually solicit the donations

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00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:39,080
myself, but I support the
officers.

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00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,920
So that's been tough too because
my day job's always been around

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writing or has been writing and
editing for a while now.

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00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:46,840
And so that all kind of adds to
the burnout.

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00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,680
So I ended up like just deciding
I'm just not going to stress

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00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:51,480
because it's like what I should
have been doing was writing

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00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,480
another book, right?
To get out there.

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00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,560
I was like, I'm just going to
stop for a little bit, not

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00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:58,560
stress about it, right?
If the mood strikes me or

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sometimes people would ask me to
send them something for an

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00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,400
anthology, then I would write a
short story.

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00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,480
But I was basically on a break
and that's when I started

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00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,160
streaming because I was like, I
need a hobby.

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00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,160
But you can stream for a couple,
that's why I just.

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Sleep.
Sort of what brought me out of

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00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:13,800
my, like, hiatus was my friend
Nava Wolf.

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00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,120
She is an editor, but she had
recommended me to Chloe Fiboni

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00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,400
and editor at Scholastic to
perhaps be a good person to

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00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,400
write the Ruby books.
And I had not been familiar with

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00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,640
Ruby at all because I had a kid
and I hadn't been watching

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anything.
So I checked out.

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00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,320
I was like, this sounds great.
At least it's really great.

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00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,360
So I auditioned for that project
and they gave me the job.

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00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,920
And so that's kind of like.
What's the audition like dude?

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00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,640
Like sample chapters or?
I wrote, it wasn't like a sample

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00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,680
chapter.
It was I just wrote a story set

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00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:42,240
in Ruby.
Like I didn't really know how to

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00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,560
audition for it.
So I said I wrote a sample set

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00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,920
in Ruby and sent that out just
like a little idea that I had.

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And I guess they liked it.
I tried to make it funny, try to

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00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,440
hit the vibe, like I think I'm
pretty good at matching the tone

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00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,520
of a series and like getting the
voices of the characters and

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00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,320
things like that.
They picked me and that was for

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00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,120
three novels, but we kind of
took them like one at a time and

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00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,360
I got to work on that.
And since then, I mean those

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00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:05,960
Ruby books kept me pretty busy
for a while.

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00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,120
I ended up writing 3 Ruby tie
novels and a book of fairy tales

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00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,760
that were set in that universe.
And I honestly can say that a

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00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,240
lot of the other projects that
I've been working on have all

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00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,040
been linked back to that
opportunity because Chloe moved

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00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,280
on to Blizzard and now I have.
She's been tapping me to write

281
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,920
some short stories for different
game series like World of

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00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,720
Warcraft and Overwatch and
things like that, which is

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00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,640
awesome because she knows how we
work well together.

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00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,080
She knows that I can write
quickly and then I can what kind

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00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,120
of quality she can expect.
Both of my other editors on

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00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,400
Gamers and the stream team also
worked at Scholastic at one

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00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,560
point, and I had interacted with
them in the past.

288
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:47,560
So when they went to other
imprints, they look to me to see

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00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:49,360
if I would be interested in
writing books with them as well.

290
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,080
So a lot of those opportunities
really came from me not turning

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00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,600
down the opportunity to audition
for that Ruby series and then

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00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,360
getting the job.
And then I've done other things

293
00:12:58,360 --> 00:12:59,960
with Scholastic as well, like
the Five Nights at Freddy's

294
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,760
books came out from Scholastic
2.

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00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,880
And again, because they have
worked with me in the past, they

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00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,200
know what I can do.
Like how good is your first

297
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:07,480
draft?
Now I want to read a first

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00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:11,040
draft.
They have gotten better.

299
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,440
I think I've gotten more
confident in my first draft.

300
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,160
I used to not want to show
anything to anyone until I had

301
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,240
at least done like a pretty
serious developmental edit of my

302
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,080
own and Polish.
But because of the timeline, I

303
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,760
had to relax that quite a bit.
And I think that because of the

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00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,720
turn around time, they also know
kind of what to expect from the

305
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,080
first draft.
So my first drafts when I send

306
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,760
them out have a lot of
disclaimers in them.

307
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,560
It's OK, there's a bunch of
placeholders here.

308
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:37,360
I think I need to kind of, I
kind of want to like flush this

309
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,200
out a little bit later on.
There's lots of room to punch up

310
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:40,840
the dialogue, like all that
stuff.

311
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:42,680
My outlines tend to be fairly
detailed.

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00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,360
So they have a pretty good sense
as some of my outlines all

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00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,160
actually have dialogue in the
outlines and paragraphs that are

314
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,720
just like in very much detail.
So I don't think there are any

315
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,120
surprises when they get the
drafts.

316
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,280
I've gotten more confident in my
first drafts.

317
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,880
You know, the revision process
is usually pretty fast too.

318
00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,360
I, I believe absolutely all of
this book could be better if I

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00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,880
have more time, but that isn't
really a luxury sometimes.

320
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,840
But you know, the books that I
write on my own that I don't

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00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,200
have anybody lined up to
publish, those could end up

322
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,760
taking months or years of of
revision before we even send it

323
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,160
out on submission.
So when did you first get your

324
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,720
agent?
For Fair Coin, my first novel

325
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,280
back that.
Was a long time ago it.

326
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,400
Was a long time ago, so that
would have been.

327
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:20,720
Bad.
I mean that in a good way, yeah.

328
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,680
But we so I was his first.
I was his first client as well.

329
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,280
I wrote my first novel and I was
prepared.

330
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,640
A lot of people say that first
book is gonna be in the drawer,

331
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:28,800
right?
You're just using that to.

332
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,040
Practice.
I hate when people say that

333
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,560
it's.
I hate that too, because have

334
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,600
faith in your work, but I was
planning to go as far as I could

335
00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,280
with that novel.
At the time, I don't think

336
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,080
self-publishing was as accepted
as it is now and I didn't really

337
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,080
want to go through that whole
like business side of things.

338
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,400
Mainly it's because of how much
work is involved with the

339
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,600
marketing and editing and all
that stuff on your own.

340
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,080
So many, so much of respect for
people who can do that.

341
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,600
But but I had fair coin and I
queried and I think I was

342
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,640
querying for like 7 months or
something like that.

343
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:55,640
That's.
Pretty average.

344
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,200
That's pretty fast, even it.
Wasn't too bad and it was like

345
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,320
maybe I think my list had maybe
30.

346
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,600
Oh, now go away 33.
That's nothing.

347
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,160
I mean, you know, I, I feel very
lucky that it turned out that

348
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:07,720
way.
I was a slush reader, like 1 of

349
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,960
Jabberwocky slush readers that
picked it out and like showed it

350
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,440
to him.
And he was actually new to the

351
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,320
agency.
So when I queried his position

352
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,880
didn't exist.
Like he wasn't there.

353
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,880
And then by the time I did
query, he had been brought in to

354
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,920
B specifically like the YA agent
and we've been together for all

355
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,800
this time.
So it's for Faircoin.

356
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,720
And that was on submission for
like 2 years.

357
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,680
So whatever, whatever luck I had
with getting the agent like so

358
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,760
two years.
On sub, well, you know, he, he

359
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,440
was a new guy so they didn't
know what to expect on.

360
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,200
So how long did you have to edit
that?

361
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,880
Do you remember?
I wrote the draft.

362
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,280
I've revised it myself for I
think probably about six months

363
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,040
before I even started querying
any agents.

364
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,160
And then I wrote my query
letter.

365
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,320
I revised the query letter and
the synopsis, like all that

366
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,480
stuff over and over again until
I felt like it was perfect.

367
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,560
And then when we sold it, I had
very light revisions on it.

368
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,840
I believe the sequel had more
revisions because I had kind of

369
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,720
written it and then just didn't
keep working on it until I knew

370
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,040
if we were in sell the first
one.

371
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,760
But you know, they say enjoy
being on sub with your first

372
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,360
book because once you sell that
book, then you're going to have

373
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,960
those deadlines for your
subsequent novels.

374
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,440
And if you want to make it a
living, if you want to write

375
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,640
full time as your job, which is
not ever anything I really

376
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,960
aspire to, you kind of need to
have a novel out every year.

377
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,880
It's a grueling pace.
That's what you're doing.

378
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,720
To do that, I mean, I've got,
sometimes I have like two or

379
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,480
three out of years, depending on
how things stack up.

380
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,240
But I mean, I wrote them very
quickly and they're all just so

381
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,640
like the side thing, my day job.
But if you were out there and

382
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,600
just writing your own work and
submitting it to publishers,

383
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,640
it's tough.
It's really hard road to go

384
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,880
down.
We're beautifully delusional, I

385
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:38,680
think.
You have to be right.

386
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,960
I kind of hate, I hate
mentioning about versus Scott

387
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,600
Card.
I was reading his writing advice

388
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,520
when I started writing science
fiction and fantasy.

389
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,720
And it's kind of like when you
send something out there, you do

390
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,080
have to be delusional.
You have to you simultaneously

391
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,160
believe this is the worst thing
ever and this is the best thing

392
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,360
ever because you have to do that
in order to get your workout

393
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,440
there.
Otherwise you would never send

394
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,800
anything out.
Some of it is having faith in

395
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,240
yourself, but some of it is also
just like, if you're not

396
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:01,320
believing yourself, then who
will?

397
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,640
Yeah, how much do you re read
from the day before?

398
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,839
Do you let yourself read a whole
chapter or a few pages?

399
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:09,720
And then have you ever been
like, wow, this is just a pile

400
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,160
or like, Oh my God, I did so
good.

401
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:12,880
Like because we all have those
days.

402
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,720
Like some days like when I talk
to my critique partner, she's

403
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,400
like, well, and I was like, you
know, I felt really good

404
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,040
yesterday, but I read it.
Nah, I'm just like, I just need

405
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,319
a little space.
It's like I get pouty, I'm

406
00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:26,680
really good at taking notes but
everyone could be really honest

407
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,680
with me.
I don't like rude maybe Like

408
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,520
have you thought about this or?
That's a mean copy.

409
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,120
Not the right direction.
It's just like, wow.

410
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,880
I have a very thick skin.
Partially it's from like my

411
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,680
critique groups and going
through a Clarion W workshop

412
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,000
like.
Yeah, tell me about that too

413
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,680
after.
Yeah, the Office smart helps as

414
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,160
well.
I generally don't reread much of

415
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,600
what I wrote before, like so
maybe a couple lines or

416
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:49,840
something to kind of get back
into it.

417
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,680
Early on.
I kind of trained myself, keep

418
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,840
moving.
I sort of know like everything

419
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,560
can be fixed or revision, but
you can't revise something you

420
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,080
haven't written yet, right?
So you have to have a draft done

421
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,000
before you can go back and fix
it and read it and figure out

422
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,400
like this is work.
Does this not work?

423
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,680
Like how do I patch it up?
When I was writing for a coin

424
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,640
and it's my first novel, so I
didn't know what the heck I was

425
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,120
doing, but I was basically
writing and as I was writing, I

426
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,120
was outlining it.
I was writing the outline as I

427
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,160
was writing the chapter, so that
I had a little summary of what

428
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,880
happened in each chapter that I
could refer back to you very

429
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,000
easily.
And that was.

430
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:18,360
Actually brilliant of you.
Thank you.

431
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,640
That was really brilliant
because then you can do your

432
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,120
summary so much easier too.
Yes, yes, it helped a lot with

433
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:25,360
the synopsis.
And you're a cheater.

434
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,800
And because and because for Coin
had like multiple realities, I

435
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,480
had to keep track of which
universe my main character was

436
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:33,560
in.
There's a lot of stuff to keep

437
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,560
in track of.
But as I was writing, I

438
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,480
discovered, OK, I might be in
Chapter 4, and I would say, oh,

439
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,320
because of how the story was
moving, I want this to be true

440
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,120
to say I want him to be
interested in this character

441
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,400
now.
But I hadn't built that in

442
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,600
earlier on.
So rather than go back to revise

443
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,240
the first several chapters to
add this character back in, I

444
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,440
just made a note.
I was like, put blah, blah, blah

445
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,160
in, right?
And then I just proceeded from

446
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,600
there on as though it had always
been that way.

447
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,440
And then I'd get to like Chapter
10 and realize, Oh no, this is a

448
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,160
better idea.
So rather than constantly

449
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,560
revising it, I just kind of
proceeded as though I'd already

450
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,640
made the edits and made a little
note to go back and fix it so

451
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,040
that way I wasn't stopping and
starting over and over again,

452
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,440
getting hung up on what I had
done before, which a lot of

453
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,800
people, like rightfully so,
can't get past.

454
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,360
I tried.
I got stuck near the end of the

455
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,320
book.
I knew where I was going, so I

456
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,920
decided to try to skip ahead and
write like the last chapter.

457
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:23,800
And I couldn't do it.
I've done that.

458
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,080
I know people who can write in a
non linear fashion, but so far

459
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:28,400
it is not me.
Except if I'm writing an

460
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,080
interactive book.
Wow.

461
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,680
Well, you're interactive is like
and now you're dead.

462
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,320
Start over and game over like
you're in all you have all of

463
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:36,680
that.
I don't know how you do that.

464
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,120
I am non linear.
Sometimes when I write my book

465
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,800
to linear that muddy middle just
past the midpoint is so boring

466
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,720
for me.
I was like, I don't know, that's

467
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,640
that's my spot where I have to
pay the most attention and

468
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,720
revisions because I was like, I
know what I'm setting up here,

469
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,000
but it still has to be engaging
in some way.

470
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,400
Like, come on, do better, do
better.

471
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,320
I mentioned placeholders before.
I put a lot of TKS in, so I use

472
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,320
it to mean to come.
I guess it's an editor thing.

473
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,840
But it's because the letters TK
don't really appear very often

474
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,480
in English language together in
actual words.

475
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,160
So when I'm doing my word
search, when I'm doing

476
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,120
revisions, I can find all the
TKS, right?

477
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,240
And I do that a lot, especially
when I'm drafting, because what

478
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,200
would often happen is, OK, I
might be saying, OK, they're

479
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,680
coming up to the Statue of
Liberty and somebody says.

480
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,160
There are TK steps to the top.
Rather than stop and research to

481
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,920
get all the information, I just
put that little placeholder in

482
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:26,880
and then I come back to it
later.

483
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,120
On look, you're inspiring me
again.

484
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,720
I'm stealing that line.
Too, I don't want to get hung up

485
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,920
on on the recent research and
those rabbit holes that you go

486
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,200
down.
The rabbit holes can be great

487
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,680
sometimes because they give you
ideas that you didn't have

488
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,560
before.
But if you're trying to write

489
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,920
fast, I just will just say TK.
Or if there's anything that I'm

490
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,920
not certain about, if I'm trying
to quote something or trying to

491
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,840
remember something from like the
past book, just TK it and then I

492
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:49,120
come back.
Sometimes I have a lot of TK's

493
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:52,200
to fill in, but the framework
around it is there.

494
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,880
But that is so brilliant.
I'm working on memoir right now.

495
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,120
So even like when I get to a
spot that I worked on a chapter

496
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:00,840
before I went away with my
family and it was so heavy and

497
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,920
unpleasant.
And then I was like, Oh my God,

498
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,160
I'm, I have to go there.
I have to go there as a writer.

499
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,960
I have to go there as observer.
I have to like make it

500
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,720
interesting and not just be in
the trauma of whatever stick atk

501
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,560
in there.
And like, when I'm in a better

502
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,080
space or a different space that
you could fill in some of the

503
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,240
stuff that's just brilliant.
Yeah.

504
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,600
That is that.
You've just changed my life.

505
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,040
I'm like, not even kidding you.
Just.

506
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:23,840
This will be the clip for
everything.

507
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,280
I was like, TK, baby.
I can't wait to tell Nikki, my

508
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,280
critique partner, about TK
because I can lose myself from

509
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,040
rabbit holes sometimes.
And I know I'm avoiding like the

510
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,040
other stuff, but it doesn't
really help.

511
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,800
I also want to tell people who
doesn't know what this alpha

512
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,680
smart actually looks like.
It kind of looks like a

513
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,600
typewriter with the itty bitty
screen.

514
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,520
I highly recommend looking it up
because it was the coolest thing

515
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,680
and you're really focused.
So I met you.

516
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,840
You were working in, what would
we call that, the barn at

517
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,320
highlights, right?
It was the barn.

518
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,160
Did you just go by yourself or
were you in a writer's thing?

519
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,360
That time I was by myself is one
of their unretreats, I think

520
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:00,000
they call it or yeah, UN
workshop retreats, right?

521
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,560
So just because I was just there
by myself.

522
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,200
And then we all bothered you so
ha ha ha.

523
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,280
But that was great.
Getting to meet other writers is

524
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,560
just as inspiring, getting to
talk to other people who know

525
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,000
what it's like to live in that
world.

526
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,360
So I want to know when did you
start reading?

527
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,480
Like do you remember the first
book because you are so specific

528
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,000
about what you write in your
genres?

529
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,960
Was there a story that you read
that just like stuck with you?

530
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:24,040
My older sister taught me to
read when I was very young.

531
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,040
We used the Bible for some
reason, and she would make me

532
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,680
read a line until I mess up, and
then I'd have to go all the way

533
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,560
back and start again.
So maybe that's how I learned,

534
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,160
like my persistence or like the
mentality of like playing video

535
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,120
games until you get it right.
But I just always read as a kid.

536
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,800
I don't remember my mom reading
to me too much, but I have

537
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,640
specific memories of like
teachers at school reading to

538
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,480
me, like Stuart Little and the
Trumpet of this one.

539
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,480
And a lot of the kids books.
Like I have this theory that a

540
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,400
lot of people's favorite books
are children's books, like the

541
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,720
ones that they read when they
were younger.

542
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:56,960
And I loved Narnia and Hardy
Boys and the Great Brain.

543
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,480
I just read everything as a kid
and then I started getting into

544
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,080
older books as I got older.
But The Silver Crown by Robert C

545
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,400
Brian's one of my favorite
books, and I think a lot of

546
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,440
those, like if I look back and
William Slater's science fiction

547
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,640
books at a certain point though,
like as I was getting to fantasy

548
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,520
and science fiction, at a
certain point, I pivoted and

549
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,680
went more into the science
fiction side of things than

550
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,360
fantasy.
And then of course, once I got

551
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:21,680
into Star Trek, I was reading
like Star Trek novels and just I

552
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,360
read a lot of Piers Anthony.
Some of his books are fantastic.

553
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,520
Like the first three books of
any of his series are amazing.

554
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,200
And then you kind of get
diminishing returns.

555
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,640
Sorry Piers, if you're
listening, a lot of that stuff

556
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,000
can't help but form your
writing.

557
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,480
But I also watch a lot of TV as
a kid.

558
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,720
I watch like Thundercats and He
Man.

559
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,240
And those are all weird mashups
of science fiction and fantasy,

560
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:39,840
which I've I think I've always
enjoyed.

561
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,680
I'm a Trekkie, but I was like
original.

562
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,040
I'm like way back I have had the
Star Trek Barbie and Ken in the

563
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,320
box as if it's going to like be
something whatever I hadn't

564
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,760
followed in all of the universes
anymore.

565
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,640
Because there's part of me that
just, I'm so nostalgic about

566
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,200
some things for me that I'm
like, I don't know, I know some

567
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,000
of the special effects makeup
artists on the show that's kind

568
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,360
of cool, like 1° of separation.
But I also don't have Paramount

569
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:05,400
and I refuse to pay for more
channels so.

570
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,840
I'm very conflicted about my
Paramount subscription, but I'm

571
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,800
finishing up Strange in the
World right now and it's

572
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,520
fantastic.
It's probably, I'd say, the most

573
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,720
nostalgic of the current Star
Trek series.

574
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,760
There's something about that
universe because we're so human,

575
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,840
we're so flawed, everyone goes
adventuring and we're like

576
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,400
smarter.
We're going to bring all of our

577
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,000
know how, but don't mess with
their where they kind of stuff.

578
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,320
And I'm like and you're all so
flawed.

579
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,040
You're all so flawed and I love
that.

580
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,120
OK, so you also did that was a
Clarion.

581
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,760
Did I get that right?
Yeah, Clarion West, so that.

582
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,160
So why and how?
Tell me about that.

583
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,520
When I started writing, I was, I
was focusing most on a short

584
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,560
fiction, science fiction,
fantasy, sending out to

585
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,720
magazines and things.
I actually had always wanted to

586
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,480
write for television or I was
thinking about writing for

587
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,800
television or film, but I didn't
want to move to LA and like do

588
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,760
that whole thing.
I knew that I could send out

589
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,480
short stories from wherever and
like they would be published

590
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,440
theoretically based on the the
quality of the story, worry or

591
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:55,680
not, because of like who I knew
right.

592
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,200
I think I found out about the
workshops through like the

593
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,440
magazine, like that magazine ads
and things like that.

594
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,440
But it seemed like this amazing
experience.

595
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,760
The clan workshops are like the
six week intensive writing

596
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,400
workshops where you go with 17
or 18 other students and each

597
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,680
week you have a different
instructor who's like a writer

598
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,240
and editor in the field.
And it just sounded amazing to

599
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,760
be able to go away for six, six
weeks and just focus on writing

600
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,360
and have that be your life.
And so that's what I was really

601
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:23,640
excited about.
And I actually applied to

602
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,600
Clarion and Clarion West and was
rejected by both of them.

603
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,760
Although I think Clarion, I
think they'd give me like a

604
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,280
weird wait list thing.
And then the following year I

605
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,600
applied and Clarin E accepted
me, but I really wanted to go to

606
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,040
Clarin West, so I let Clarin W
knows, like, Hey, I have an

607
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,000
acceptance from Clarin E.
Do you know how I'm doing?

608
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,840
And then they then they called
me back and offered me a

609
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,720
position there.
So that that year of my

610
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,640
instructors were, I mean, this
is this was the dream lineup.

611
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,880
It was Octavia Butler the last
year that she taught.

612
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,160
And then she passed not much
longer after that, you know, L

613
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,240
Timmel to shop, who's an editor
at Aqueduct Press, Andy Duncan,

614
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,280
who's fabulous short story
writer, Connie Willis.

615
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:01,680
Connie Willis, Gordon Van
Gelder, who was the editor of

616
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,200
fantasy and science fiction at
the time.

617
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,840
And then Michael Swanwick,
another fabulous writer, both

618
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,720
short stories and novels.
So that was the dream.

619
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,840
Like I was there mostly for
Octavia and for Connie.

620
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,720
Some of the others were new to
me, but you know, I thought they

621
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,760
were great.
And it was just a transform,

622
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,920
transformational experience.
Like sometimes they call it like

623
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,440
a boot camp for writers.
They sometimes will say, oh, in

624
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,200
six weeks, you'll learn six
years of writing.

625
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,680
And for me, that was true.
Like my wife, my girlfriend at

626
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,880
the time had seen my writing
before I went to the workshop.

627
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,920
She saw it like during the
workshop and then immediately

628
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:32,760
after.
And she was like, you have

629
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,840
changed already so much just in
the short time that you've been

630
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,440
there because every day you're
reading two or three manuscripts

631
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,400
and critiquing them in a round
table with people.

632
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,040
You're writing a new story every
week.

633
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,880
And I had to break myself a lot
of the writing habits that I had

634
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,600
that meant that it would take me
months to write a short story.

635
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,560
You know, I had felt like
everything had to be perfect,

636
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:51,760
like had to have worked out all
the details you.

637
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,520
Didn't figure out TK yet.
I hadn't figured out TK yet.

638
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,920
I revised a lot back then as I
was writing and brought pages

639
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,080
like I would throw out like 10
pages and start over again.

640
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,440
So I had to break myself of a
lot of those habits and learn to

641
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,000
write faster and learn how to
critique other people's work,

642
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,880
but then also be able to apply
that to my own writing.

643
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,320
First of all, know that
something isn't working and

644
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,760
like, figure out why it's not
working.

645
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,040
And I have critique groups as
well, writing groups and things

646
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,040
like that.
And that was kind of my inroads

647
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,200
to like the community.
But a huge part of it was the

648
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,240
validation.
Before I went to Clarion, WI was

649
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,600
actually thinking that I wasn't
going to make it.

650
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,760
I had been writing for five
years on my own and I felt like

651
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,080
I had plateaued, like I wasn't
going to get any better than

652
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,040
where I was at that point.
I had sold anything and I wasn't

653
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:31,800
feeling, I wasn't seeing that I
was getting better.

654
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:34,680
So I'm starting and I was
actually literally deciding

655
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,440
whether I was going to take a
new job, which would have been

656
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,800
like a management position with
a long commute, or go to the

657
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,440
workshop.
I couldn't do both, and I had to

658
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:42,600
choose which one I was going to
do.

659
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,960
And I went with the workshop.
And some people were like,

660
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,920
you're nuts.
And then other writers were very

661
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,520
supportive was like, this is
he's taking a shot, like he's

662
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,440
betting on his future.
And so I'm so glad that I did

663
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,240
that.
But it was a weird, it was a

664
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,720
weird time.
It was a weird time.

665
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,760
And.
How long ago was that?

666
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,680
It's 2005 that.
Workshop wow, it's amazing like

667
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,840
those little impacts.
I talk a lot with other writers

668
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,600
too about how your critique
group is important, but also

669
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,400
meeting new writers is super
important because you get in

670
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,080
your bubble and then I don't
know if you ever have you ever

671
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,840
noticed that there was one
person in this one group who

672
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,000
seemed to forget that she kept
stealing the names of other

673
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,400
characters of the critique group
people or like situations.

674
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,560
And we would be like, are you
really not aware that we read

675
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,120
this six months ago from this
person over here?

676
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:32,080
And they would pretend not to
be.

677
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,960
And I was like, there's no way.
There's no way.

678
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,840
But I think that was like that
part of that one brain thing

679
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,160
that kind of happens in a group.
Have you ever met another author

680
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,720
that you really were looking
forward to?

681
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,880
And you're like, oh, that was
surprising.

682
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,360
Like good or bad way?
I've met some authors at events.

683
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Most of them are the types of
stories where I met somebody,

684
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,000
you know, before I'd even really
published something and they

685
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,240
were just completely dismissive
and not interested in me, you

686
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,040
know, So I would go to a reading
or something and meet this

687
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,320
author and just kind of get the
brush off.

688
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,280
Or going to some of those like
parties, like going to the tour

689
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,720
party at a convention and you
can see as you were walking

690
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,040
through the space that people
were looking down at your name

691
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,640
tag to see if you were worth
talking to and then moving on.

692
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,640
And a lot of that was shifted my
approach at these things because

693
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,880
when I came out of Clarion West,
I started going to some

694
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,200
conventions and I was, I still
had a little.

695
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,760
Bit of the much young like to
say like you were like what, 20?

696
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,600
220 something because don't make
me do the math.

697
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:31,040
OK, no math.
No math.

698
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,400
But I, when I first started
going to conventions, I was

699
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,400
like, I have to meet all these
people.

700
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,760
I have to meet this editor, I
have to meet this person because

701
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,920
in my head it was like, then
they will Remember Me when I

702
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,400
send them a story or whatever.
And that was really stressful

703
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,400
and really not like genuine.
And so I sort of mellowed after

704
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,920
that and decided I'm just going
to have fun with the people that

705
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,040
I know.
And through that, I started to

706
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,760
meet the people that they knew.
And so then I didn't have to

707
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,880
force the networking.
I was meeting people organically

708
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,840
and in a much more genuine way
and without any expectation of

709
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,120
any sort of exchange or benefit
from it.

710
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,560
And when my first novel came
out, I was surprised and just

711
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,880
touched because a lot of people
reached out to me with like

712
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,440
podcast opportunities and like
blogging opportunities and

713
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,040
things like I didn't have to ask
anyone because they came to me.

714
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,920
They're like, you have this book
coming out, do you want to be on

715
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,560
my blog or can I interview you
or something like that?

716
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,400
And so I've tried really hard to
try to pay that for it as well.

717
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,040
Like I want to help other people
promote their stuff.

718
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,320
It's become impossible to read
everything that everyone's

719
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,920
written, but I can re repost
something or recommend something

720
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,720
if I have read it.
So that was the thing.

721
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,040
It was really nice to not have
to like beg people because when

722
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,000
I did have to beg and then when
I did have to beg people because

723
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,360
I was sort of I had to beg
people for blurbs the 11th hour

724
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,400
around the holidays, like people
responded as well.

725
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,880
They were like I'll do what I
can, but I got some great blurbs

726
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,960
from that too for.
Your first book or for?

727
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,800
The first book.
Yeah, I was like, because when I

728
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,400
met you, like you are, if people
can't tell, you're very nice.

729
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,200
When I met you, I was like, I
met Nova and I was like

730
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,600
fangirling because I had
followed her for a while.

731
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,240
And I write magical realism and
dead girl stuff and I see dead

732
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,120
people, so there's so many
ghosts and that there's so many

733
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,320
ghosts at Highlights Place.
I was like, I got to clear my

734
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,560
room and Nova was in the
creepiest bunk there.

735
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,960
I was like, girl, I got a she's
like Lolly.

736
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,040
I was like, I just gotta, but
like, you are super personal.

737
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,720
What I found in the Wyatt
community.

738
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,440
So I was in LA, right?
I did production, but not

739
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,800
writing for film and TV.
No one is generous in that.

740
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,280
Everyone is like very
territorial.

741
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,880
I'll just say that.
And then I knew, and I still

742
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,200
know adult writers and I took
classes because I always wanted

743
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,880
to write.
I just didn't believe in my

744
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,600
talent whatsoever and I had
forgotten how to write.

745
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,680
Starting over is always
humbling, right?

746
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,720
So I'm like 28 learning to write
again, taking these classes, but

747
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,280
they're people like they I've
also interviewed on the podcast

748
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,600
who I've kept in touch with, but
they also knew I wasn't ready.

749
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,320
And I always got along better
with agents that I had no desire

750
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,440
to sub to because that pressure,
just like you were saying, that

751
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,680
pressure was gone.
But everyone like would the

752
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,280
really advanced or like people
who had multiple books

753
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:11,480
published, they're like, where
you at?

754
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,160
What are you doing, blah, blah,
blah.

755
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,160
I think for me, because I
started at NYAI, still have, I'm

756
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,960
staring at the book and draft
that I'm ignoring right now, but

757
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:27,080
I think the generosity was super
what I needed.

758
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,360
SCBWYI think is really good for
beginners and really good for

759
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,240
people who have all their books,
but all the people like midlist.

760
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,960
I wish they would do more for
midlist.

761
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,600
I was like, there's like people
with one book who have an agent

762
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,120
who aren't like, what about
that?

763
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,840
Like how do you get through
that?

764
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,480
And not just from the people
who've been super successful.

765
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,960
So that's part of like why I'm
having these conversations

766
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,880
because how many books do you
have?

767
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,880
Like how many do you have
honestly.

768
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,560
So many dozen or so.
Yeah, Yeah.

769
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,160
I was like, and then all your
articles, so you're everywhere.

770
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,800
And just like I said, there's
videos of you writing in cabs in

771
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,040
Denver, like on your way to
commit.

772
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,720
Yeah, I went there.
If you don't think I didn't do

773
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,080
all that I did.
I was like, oh, you're

774
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,760
everywhere, and you're always
kind and you're always generous

775
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,320
and you're always just like,
yeah, what?

776
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,320
Like, what do you want to know
that makes a difference in the

777
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,640
process of wanting to build a
career?

778
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,400
And then to hear that you still
have another.

779
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,360
I don't know how you do it.
Another job, Married and

780
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,840
children.
No wonder you slept 90 minutes

781
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,600
for your deadline.
Do you have certain hours?

782
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,680
Are you like regimented that
way?

783
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,680
I used to, I mean, kids kind of
change everything, right?

784
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,880
Because my, I used to just write
mostly on the weekends or before

785
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,360
work or, you know, evenings or
whatever.

786
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,680
Since having the, the crushing
deadlines and everything, it's,

787
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,760
it really depends sometimes on
my wife's schedule, like is she

788
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,240
around?
Because she's very busy.

789
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,400
She works as well and she does a
lot of community theater and she

790
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,640
has a pretty active social life
that so one of us has to watch

791
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,040
the kids.
And then if I'm watching the

792
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,440
kids, I generally can't really
work until at least the

793
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,680
toddler's in bed asleep.
And a lot of the time after that

794
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,680
whole process of putting her to
bed, I'm really exhausted.

795
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,920
So my, my evenings are not the
most productive, the most

796
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,639
fabulously productive.
And I'm constantly changing.

797
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:11,760
And sometimes I'll go through
different phases where I was

798
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,560
like, OK, I'm waking up earlier
to write, although, you know, so

799
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,440
I've been trying to do that more
lately.

800
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,560
But a lot of the time I was
discovering I would wake up

801
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,239
early and then my kid would wake
up early too.

802
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,080
So it's not as regimented as I'd
like, but I try to block out the

803
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,840
time.
And my wife who works with me,

804
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,199
so drafting isn't so bad.
I can do that in short bursts,

805
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,800
like whenever I have the time,
but when I'm doing a revision I

806
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,280
really need larger chunks of
time because it's a lot of very,

807
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,960
very thinky.
You have to fill in all those

808
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,120
TKS.
Man, well, there are too many.

809
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,239
Well for that first pass
revision of like a first draft.

810
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,320
But when I've gotten my editor
letter back and all his notes

811
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,040
and I have to kind of do some
structural changes and things

812
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,800
like that or a lot of rewriting,
I really need more time to focus

813
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,280
on it.
When it's really direct, I will

814
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,280
take like days off from work to
focus.

815
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,239
So like I took a week off
earlier in the month to like

816
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,120
make sure I could stay on track.
Like I I have a whiteboard up

817
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,480
over there that you can't see
that has.

818
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:00,760
Like a calendar.
On it, yeah.

819
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,720
So it's got a calendar and it
shows all my upcoming projects

820
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:05,320
and like sort of my target word
counts.

821
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,840
And I check off on days that,
you know, that I write so that I

822
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,840
can kind of see this visual of
like, oh, I'm falling behind.

823
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,520
So that helps me kind of stay on
track.

824
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,680
So like usually like how fast do
you get your edit letter back

825
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,920
from when you like send?
Something you know, it depends

826
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,640
on the the book and the editor.
There's usually it could be

827
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,800
anywhere from a couple weeks to
like a couple of months.

828
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,440
And so sometimes the scheduling,
like I might have figured out my

829
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,360
writing plan, like my schedule
for multiple projects.

830
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,440
And then one thing ends up being
late, and not necessarily

831
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,280
because of me, but because of
the people reviewing it, that

832
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,000
then pushes it farther back.
And then I now have overlapping

833
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:43,800
projects and overlapping
deadlines.

834
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,080
Right now I have two books that
are staggered such that I wrote

835
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,600
a draft of The Gamers 2.
And then I sent that to my

836
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,280
editor.
She sent me notes, but I was,

837
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,080
while she was working on that, I
was writing a draft of Stream

838
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,160
Team 2.
And then I just turned that in.

839
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,160
So now I have to revise Gamers
2.

840
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,120
And by the time I'm done with
that, I'll have notes on Stream

841
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:03,720
Team 2 to get back to.
So how many?

842
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,880
Voices are in your head.
How many boys?

843
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,480
Too many and it's funny because
this messed me up in some of my

844
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,720
drafting.
The gamers books are first

845
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:15,000
person present.
Each book has a different

846
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,920
character, POV character and
then the stream team is third

847
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,640
person past.
So there were some some chapters

848
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,240
where I was drafting when I went
back to revise that I was like,

849
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:24,640
what am I doing?
Like this?

850
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,760
Like half of the chapters in
first person present and I had

851
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,840
to change it because I was stuck
in my head.

852
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,840
Like it just kind of came out
naturally that way.

853
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,040
So sometimes that sometimes that
happens, but you know, that's

854
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,320
why you revise.
How many notebooks do you have

855
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:38,560
around?
Like I have a lot of little

856
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,760
notebooks when I have an idea or
a lots and lots of post.

857
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,640
It notebooks.
I still have a stack of

858
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,160
notebooks that have every idea
that I've ever had and different

859
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,960
notes from like different
stories or like critiques and

860
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,000
things like that.
I usually have one notebook that

861
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,560
has everything in it, although I
recently set aside a separate

862
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,000
notebook for a separate project
that I haven't really spent much

863
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,360
time on that I wanted to just be
for that project whenever get

864
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:00,800
back to it.
But mostly I have one notebook

865
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,600
that often I'll carry it around
with me if I have it in my bag

866
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,280
or otherwise I end up like
texting myself or emailing

867
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,360
myself things.
I used to call myself when I had

868
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,960
an answering machine.
I used to call myself and leave

869
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,480
messages when I'd have an idea
out in the world and I didn't

870
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,440
have time to write it down.
Because the one time that I had

871
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,320
an idea and didn't write it
down, I was like, this is such a

872
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:18,520
good idea, I'm going to remember
it.

873
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,680
And then it completely left me.
And I'm convinced that would

874
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,600
have made me like a blockbuster
writer if I'd ever managed to do

875
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,280
that one.
You are a blockbuster writer.

876
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,120
I know sooner then.
Sooner.

877
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,160
I like that.
I like that one.

878
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,560
Yeah, I am.
Do you have a word count that

879
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,320
you try to get to like?
Depends on the the project.

880
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,200
My most recent books have all
been middle grade, so those are

881
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,000
in like the 30 to 40,000 right
Rant, Rome and.

882
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:44,360
You just made me feel good about
myself.

883
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,200
I was like, oh, I got 6000 words
the other week.

884
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,880
Yeah, no, that's a huge chunk of
it when you think about it.

885
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,760
So Five Nights at Freddy's, one
that I got, they gave me like a

886
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,120
word count.
They were like 60,000 words.

887
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,280
It was like, OK, when I started
actually thinking about the

888
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,360
project, this is like the first
interactive book I've written.

889
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,680
I was like, I don't need to know
the number of words that I have.

890
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,640
I need to know the number of
pages that I have because each

891
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,440
page, like one page might have a
paragraph because you're dead.

892
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,800
I'm not going to write a full
page of Cadetsy necessarily

893
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,440
doesn't need much, but some of
them might.

894
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,240
Some of the branches might go
off or go on from page to pages,

895
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,960
so that's how I did that one
like it ended up being.

896
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,720
That's another favorite quote.
You're just dead.

897
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:20,760
You don't get a whole page.
You're dead and but.

898
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,760
I think I ended up being close
to 60,000 anyway, but it was 250

899
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,960
something pages and so my goals
were to stay on track because it

900
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,240
was a super tight deadline.
I had to write 20 pages, 20

901
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:33,360
page.
It might have been 20 pages a

902
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:34,760
night.
Some dude.

903
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,960
I mean, some of them were very.
Short, I just duted you.

904
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,960
That's some of them.
Were very short, of course, but

905
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,080
that was sort of they stay on
track and those were very late

906
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,880
at nights.
I can't really, I'm trying to go

907
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,000
to bed earlier, just wake up
earlier.

908
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,000
I think, I think the clarity is
gonna be better in the morning.

909
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,480
But I think for that book, I
think the sleep deprivation

910
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:50,840
helped.
Like when I'm really tired.

911
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,800
So I don't really do drugs.
I don't do, I don't do any of, I

912
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,560
don't even really drink except
maybe socially.

913
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,200
But when I'm very tired, I get
very punchy.

914
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,560
And so if you get an e-mail from
me at 2:00 in the morning, it's

915
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,520
probably going to be funny, or
at least I'm going to think it's

916
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:03,880
funny.
It worked really well for that

917
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,480
book that I was writing it two
or three in the morning because

918
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,280
some of the endings are like
hilarious and it frees me up a

919
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,800
bit in the way that mind
altering drugs probably free

920
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,440
other people.
Yeah, I'm not.

921
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,040
I don't do drugs like
everyone's.

922
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,840
I'm like, why would I, right.
Like, why would I?

923
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,960
I see things sober like I don't
understand people.

924
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,360
I don't even have that excuse,
but.

925
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,160
I like I do, but like this is
literally how I drove my family

926
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,160
crazy.
We drove up to Maine like to get

927
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,360
into cooler temps just like last
week, whatever.

928
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,880
So I like I see faces and
things.

929
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,360
I was like, don't you see like
this rock looks like a fish and

930
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,320
my family would be like it.
It doesn't.

931
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:38,840
I'm like, no, but look and I
take a picture.

932
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,240
I'm like, do you see it now?
They're like, yes, like I see

933
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:44,120
like little faces.
Like it's just kind of fun.

934
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,800
I'm like, I just think that's
because we have an imagination,

935
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:47,880
right?
So we just see the.

936
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,400
World I've read an entire story
based on a billboard that I

937
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,640
misread, which was I think it
said don't fade and it was like

938
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,120
a Gatorade ad or something like
that.

939
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,480
And I ended up writing a story
about people who fade.

940
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,320
I love it.
Fade away unless somebody

941
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,000
reaches out to them.
It kind of helps them.

942
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:04,760
So it's like they they just
disappear and then nobody

943
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,760
remembers them.
And I read a whole story about

944
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,640
that one, and that one actually
got published in Shimmer, and I

945
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,760
think it's one of my favorite,
one of my favorite stories.

946
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,440
I targeted Shimmer particularly
for that one.

947
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,440
I really wanted to write it as a
Shimmer story.

948
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,000
It's kind of funny, like I once
auditioned to read Slush for

949
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,520
Shimmer a long time a long while
back.

950
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,000
I've read Slush for other
magazines like Nightmare

951
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,360
Magazine and Sybil's Garage and
some of those things.

952
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,920
I've sensed up to some of them
and I've gotten lovely quick

953
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,160
rejection.
Yeah, we tried to be fast and we

954
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:35,720
tried to give you something,
right.

955
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:37,120
We tried to give you some
feedback.

956
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:38,760
I always try to give some kind
of feedback because I know what

957
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:39,680
it's like on the other end of
that.

958
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,480
But Shimmer was interesting
because they gave me these

959
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,800
stories and I hope I'm not
divulging any of their secrets,

960
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,040
but they would, I would see
these stories and I would give

961
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,960
them my recommendations.
And my recommendations would be

962
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,600
like, don't publish this one,
don't publish this one.

963
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,080
This one maybe has potential and
it was completely the opposite

964
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,160
of how they would do things
because their approach was very

965
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,840
different.
Where the things that I would

966
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,680
have rejected are the ones that
they would have accepted because

967
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:00,880
they want to work with the
author.

968
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,040
Like they're more interested in
the idea of the story and sort

969
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,840
of like the voice of it.
And if they saw something there,

970
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,800
then they felt like they could
work with the author to make it

971
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,280
work and.
It is super opposite.

972
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,680
It is super opposite, like my
mentality and the mentality I

973
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,360
think most magazines is if it's
not perfect right away you

974
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,400
reject it because you have other
stories that you could publish

975
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,960
instead.
But shimmer, I think, cultivates

976
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,680
a particular vibe, right?
So you're telling me that I was

977
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,840
too good, is what you're saying?
That's what I hear.

978
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,040
Is that my story about you'd
have been too good?

979
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,080
Yeah.
So that was really kind of kind

980
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,320
of interesting because
everything was like

981
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:33,880
flip-flopped.
So I did not read slush for

982
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,280
them.
And then I, you know, I don't

983
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,760
usually write to a market unless
it's like an anthology or

984
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,880
something.
But in that particular case, I

985
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,280
was trying real hard to kind of
get that vibe for them.

986
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:44,800
I think the fade thing is
perfect.

987
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,560
So is there a story that because
you have a lot of work for

988
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,320
Hireright, like does it work
with Scholastic?

989
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,080
OK, we have this because you're
adding to stories or in that.

990
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,720
What was that?
Wait, you did that?

991
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:57,680
When I wrote it down, you said,
oh, you choose your own

992
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,800
adventures even like you had
that iconic logo.

993
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,960
So are they like, hey, these are
the stories we need written and

994
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,480
you write this one or?
No, they usually come with me

995
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,400
with to me with a specific
project like Ruby.

996
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,280
They're like, OK, well, we want
somebody to write these Ruby

997
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:11,760
books.
But then I was able to kind of I

998
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,920
pitched story ideas at them and
at Roosterteeth, like the studio

999
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,280
that had the property at the
time.

1000
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,040
We kind of work together to
figure out the the story for the

1001
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,760
book.
And then I outlined it and then

1002
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:21,880
they approved that and I wrote
it.

1003
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,680
Sometimes you have the freedom
to come up with the story.

1004
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,800
And those are the ones that I
usually feel really invested in.

1005
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,440
I think that a lot of the books,
even if they're work for hire

1006
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,560
books, if you read them, it
still seems like something that

1007
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,360
I would write, right?
I mean, obviously I wrote it,

1008
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,240
but it seems like the kind of
thing that I might have written

1009
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:35,840
if I had that idea in the 1st
place, right?

1010
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,200
As opposed to a Cam just
coloring in the numbers or

1011
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,000
painting by numbers or whatever.
I've had other projects and I've

1012
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,920
auditioned for other projects
where the outline was already

1013
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,960
given to me and I kind of had a
right to that.

1014
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,000
And sometimes it's a little bit
more challenging because maybe

1015
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,880
it doesn't quite work.
And then how much freedom do I

1016
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,480
have to change this?
The Chu Jo An Adventure one was

1017
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,960
interesting because the editor
just knew that they that he

1018
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,480
wanted to work with me and
thought.

1019
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,200
I want, I want you to sink.
Does that sink?

1020
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:00,600
And you're like, Oh my God, this
editor wants to.

1021
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,120
Work Oh it was amazing I.
Was like, yeah, yeah.

1022
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,400
Like I would be like, it's
great.

1023
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,320
You know, and you're like, I
don't want to mess this up.

1024
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,360
You're talking so fast.
I was like, wait, that is a big

1025
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,800
deal.
So I pitched like 6 different

1026
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,640
ideas and I was thinking about
the more of the older Chu Jo An

1027
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,880
Adventure books.
And one of the ideas was I was

1028
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,880
kind of riffing on the current
trend in anime titles.

1029
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:21,560
I don't know how current it is
but it's been going on for a

1030
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,000
while.
But they have these long titles

1031
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,200
that are just kind of goofy.
And so my pitch was I woke up as

1032
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:27,960
a Kaiju and I don't even know
what that is.

1033
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,280
And.
Sorry, that is fucking

1034
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:33,720
hysterical.
See, that's why it's an adult

1035
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,720
content, so I could say that.
I love the idea.

1036
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:36,920
Wait.
Did you write that I.

1037
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,840
Wrote a pitch for it, right?
I got a paragraph pitch for it.

1038
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,680
But they liked the idea of a
Kaiju.

1039
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,560
Like the Kaiju thing triggered
something with them and they

1040
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,440
said, oh, we need more the
junior books, the younger reader

1041
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,360
books.
Would you like to write a book

1042
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,040
about like a baby Kaiju?
And when Shizu an Adventure

1043
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,360
says, would you like to write
this?

1044
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,600
The answer is yes.
It doesn't matter what it is.

1045
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,880
So, but yes, I'll do that.
And I was very excited about

1046
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,160
getting to write about Kaiju and
just getting to write a Shizu an

1047
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,560
adventure.
So I was like, yeah, I'm going

1048
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,000
to do that.
So so I did it.

1049
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,280
I would love to write more books
with them.

1050
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,120
I'd love to write some of the
older ones, but just having the

1051
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,120
book with the.
The I don't know, I think they

1052
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,680
should be tapping you for AK pop
Demon Hunter books I would

1053
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:13,320
write.
Yeah.

1054
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,000
I would write a thousand of
those.

1055
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,760
And it's kind of interesting for
me because I have had this,

1056
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:24,440
like, journey in my writing to
explore my own culture more, you

1057
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,280
know?
But I come to it sometimes like

1058
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,880
an outsider because I didn't
grow up.

1059
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,600
Like, even though my mom was
Korean, I wasn't steeped in

1060
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,000
Korean culture growing up.
We went to Korea a couple times.

1061
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,760
I was too young to really
appreciate it or really take a

1062
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,920
lot of it in.
So some of the time when I'm

1063
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,000
incorporating these things, the
elements into my stories are

1064
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,000
basing a story around like a
Korean folklore or something

1065
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,000
like that.
Sometimes I feel like I'm

1066
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,040
appropriating my own heritage,
right?

1067
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,520
Cuz I have to do research just
like anyone else would have to

1068
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:49,480
do.
I don't know this.

1069
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,440
I have to learn what it's like.
But I've been trying to do more

1070
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,960
of it because I want to see more
of it.

1071
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:57,280
I want to see more of the
stories.

1072
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,200
I have two questions because I
don't want to take you all day

1073
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,520
because I would.
I want to know like what's the

1074
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,840
secret book inside of you that
you want to write That maybe the

1075
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,000
doors aren't open for you yet,
but you're going to have to do

1076
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,280
it.
And I'm going to start emailing

1077
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,080
you to make sure that you get a
word in.

1078
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,760
There's a few stories that I
want to write and the door being

1079
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,600
closed is only based on like my
time.

1080
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:18,600
Right.
Yeah, like because that's.

1081
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,360
What I mean because I've had all
the the you know, but the

1082
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,000
problem is I, you know, it's.
Hard being in demand and asking

1083
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,840
to be writing a book every four
months.

1084
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,480
Whatever.
Yeah, exactly.

1085
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,320
I mean, then people will
sometimes ask me like, how do

1086
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,360
you write?
Like how do you make the time to

1087
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:32,520
do it?
Like it's deadlines, Like I'm

1088
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:34,240
joking, but it's also true.
Like I probably wouldn't write

1089
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:36,400
if I didn't have the deadlines.
But what happens if I have those

1090
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:37,920
intense deadlines?
And then when I'm sort of

1091
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,720
between projects, I have a
little bit of time to recover,

1092
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:41,920
Then I take a break And I
probably should be working on

1093
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,360
like my own thing.
But I've got a few books, like

1094
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,320
the one that I was writing at
highlights, I haven't finished

1095
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,360
and I need to go back and
probably start over again and

1096
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,640
like really outline it because I
was definitely pantsing it on

1097
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,240
that one.
And it's about a magical lost

1098
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:55,880
and found where a boy appeared
there one day.

1099
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,040
He's grown up there, so he's
only known this space.

1100
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:59,840
So I've I've partially written
that.

1101
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,040
Hello I want that Wait wait
what?

1102
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,880
What?
What age bracket is that?

1103
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,080
That would probably be middle
grade.

1104
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,360
I was thinking middle grade for
that one.

1105
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,640
And then like I have, I want to
do kind of a, a retelling of

1106
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,560
Harriet the Spy.
But but I've been doing more.

1107
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,960
I've been integrating gaming
into my stories more.

1108
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,080
I've noticed you.
Know and so it would be somebody

1109
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,880
who makes a video game about
people at the school.

1110
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,160
The weird thing I want to do is
I want to I kind of want to

1111
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:25,720
explore playwriting a little
bit.

1112
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:28,200
I kind of want to figure out how
to write a play.

1113
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,320
I have an idea and I probably
should just start writing it

1114
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,040
after this next book after these
two books, I currently don't

1115
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,280
have any contracts.
If anybody's looking, now's the

1116
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,280
time to get me, but I also will
probably just pick some project

1117
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,600
and just go with it.
What is it about a play that

1118
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,440
makes you want to go there?
Is it actually seeing?

1119
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,800
It acted out.
I think part of it is actually

1120
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,320
I'm not even looking that far
down the road.

1121
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,760
Part of it is just learning to
write something new.

1122
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,440
Like I really enjoyed when I was
learning how to write novels and

1123
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:53,400
then it's like submitting
novels.

1124
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,000
It's like learning a whole new
business, like a whole new side,

1125
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:59,240
you know, aspect of writing.
So I think just the just the

1126
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:01,280
element of like just trying
something.

1127
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,520
Different the script part.
Of it, because I don't, I can't

1128
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,720
imagine I'm going to.
It's a particularly lucrative

1129
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,480
field.
I can't.

1130
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,880
I don't know that I'll ever see
anything performed, but that

1131
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,720
would be awesome if it happened.
I've had a couple of books that

1132
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,560
were supposed to be there was
like the silence of 6 was was

1133
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,560
actually a development to be a
Netflix movie.

1134
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,640
And then the publisher was like
acquired and it just went away.

1135
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,160
But I've seen I've seen drafts
of the script and I talked to

1136
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:25,480
who was going to be the director
for us.

1137
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,080
So it really feels like a missed
opportunity.

1138
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,720
I'd love to see more of my stuff
kind of performed.

1139
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,640
I did get to write an episode of
of a Ruby short series, which

1140
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,160
was really cool based on one of
my fairy tales and I've written

1141
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,200
some podcasts and things like
that.

1142
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,400
So it's been really fun to get
to see and hear things being

1143
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,640
performed that I've written.
So I guess I'd like to see more

1144
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,160
of that.
Yeah, I'll have to go look.

1145
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,240
I actually interviewed her on my
podcast too.

1146
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:50,760
Her name is Michelle Brooks and
her play is Hitler's Tasters.

1147
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,040
That's gotten been all over.
It's there's irony.

1148
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:55,920
It's funny, although not funny,
right.

1149
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,560
And she told me, I can't think
of the name of it, but I'll go

1150
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,520
look in the episode.
And it's a place where

1151
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,760
playwrights can go and like,
read other playwrights work.

1152
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,880
I'm on there, it's a new play
exchange.

1153
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:08,840
No, it starts with an oi think
Oh.

1154
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,240
OK, it might be a different one.
We Play Change has a bunch of

1155
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,360
plays up there as well.
Some of them have been formed

1156
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,640
and some of them are just for
people to to share, but.

1157
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,640
Yeah, I just like love
connecting and inspiring.

1158
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,320
OK.
So we spend a lot of time

1159
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,960
together, but it's the time for
my favorite question, which is

1160
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,760
if you came with a warning
label, what would it be?

1161
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,080
It would probably be puns
inside.

1162
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,760
Watch out, especially late at
night.

1163
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,040
Especially late at night.
Yeah, yeah.

1164
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,360
Fortunately my son is at the age
where he will laugh at a lot of

1165
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:37,280
my jokes.
So.

1166
00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:41,280
So my my wife A.
Few more years of that, yeah, a

1167
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,400
little bit he's.
He's making puns too, so he's

1168
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:44,880
learning.
It's actually almost time.

1169
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,680
I think it's almost time to
introduce him to the Phantom

1170
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,880
Tollbooth.
He reads anything.

1171
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,200
He started reading one of my
Ruby books.

1172
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,200
He read Roman Holiday.
He read a good chunk of it.

1173
00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:55,040
I don't think he kept with it,
but yeah, probably more middle

1174
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:56,760
grade.
He was reading the FNAF book,

1175
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,160
which is thank goodness because
I wrote it for him.

1176
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,400
Like when they invited me to
write it because this one I

1177
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,560
didn't have to audition for they
they Scott invited me to write

1178
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:04,600
it.
But possibly because they had

1179
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,320
such a short turn around, I
should have said no because I

1180
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,360
was writing Gamers and Stream
team at the same time.

1181
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,440
You never say no.
Though, well, you never say no.

1182
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,640
I did say no to some other
project, which I won't mention,

1183
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,000
but it depends on the project.
And but yeah, overall, I would,

1184
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:19,840
I tend to not want to say no
because I don't know if they'll

1185
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,600
ask again or what the
opportunity to be.

1186
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,800
But because they said it was
Five Nights at Freddy's, that's

1187
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,680
one of my son's favorite things,
like in the world.

1188
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,280
And I was like, I have to do
this because I've always wanted

1189
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,840
to write an interactive novel.
And I also, this is like my

1190
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,880
chance to write something that
my son will actually think his

1191
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,400
dad is cool.
You know, because of this, he's

1192
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,600
aware that I write other books.
Like I think he on some level he

1193
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,400
thinks that's cool, but I
haven't read anything that he's

1194
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,960
like really interested in right
until the FNAF folks.

1195
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,560
That's pretty cool.
I did like when I did my Ted

1196
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,120
Talk, my daughter's school asked
me to like speak in front of

1197
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,160
people who want to be speakers.
And they're teenagers, man.

1198
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,320
Don't.
I don't like high school, like I

1199
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,680
don't know that the smartest
thing I've ever done that wasn't

1200
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,800
really enjoyable for me if I'm
honest, but whatever.

1201
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,280
I'm always honest.
But I just remember the how the

1202
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,080
whole room turned.
They're like, so how much did

1203
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,280
you get paid for that?
I'm like nothing.

1204
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,760
They all like every collective,
like creative person just left

1205
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,240
the room.
I was like, yes, it's important

1206
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:16,920
to know your worth and get paid.
And that's my little soapbox.

1207
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,440
I think Ted X can do better by
the people that they asked to do

1208
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,640
all that work for.
But it was like a fascinating

1209
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,800
thing to see like some creative
people being like, what?

1210
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,840
You're not paid millions of
dollars or you're not rich,

1211
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:27,640
famous.
And like, no, man, I'm in this

1212
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,680
high school auditorium with you
right now.

1213
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,560
Like, what are we?
How are we going to inspire you

1214
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,680
to like, go share your voice in
your story?

1215
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,800
They're like next.
One of my coworkers at a job

1216
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,720
when I when I worked at the
hospital of Philadelphia and it

1217
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:43,240
was in an office, right?
One of one of my coworkers came

1218
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:44,920
up and he's like, so how's the
book selling?

1219
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:50,200
I looked at him and said, well,
I'm still here, you know, that's

1220
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:50,760
my.
Go.

1221
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,080
I know that's.
The bookseller, I don't know.

1222
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,240
Half the time I don't know.
Half the time the answer is bad

1223
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:59,080
or it's like, yeah, I bought a
pizza last night or something

1224
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,280
like that.
I've gotten decent money for

1225
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:02,920
some of these books.
The work for hires, of course,

1226
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,480
are like you get paid once for
those.

1227
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,040
Like I never will get royalties
for most of the projects.

1228
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,360
But a lot of the time, like that
money is already, I'm going to

1229
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,760
pay bills with that money, like
you're going to pay on credit

1230
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,240
card debt or whatever, like it's
already spent half the time.

1231
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:18,880
That's my pet peeve on every
movie about an author.

1232
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:23,120
Oh my God, the luxury and their
book tours and everything.

1233
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,320
I was like please.
I usually will buy myself one

1234
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,200
like luxury item, like one
stupid thing with a book when I

1235
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,400
sell a book like a game console
or something like that that I

1236
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,840
probably wouldn't otherwise buy
or would feel extremely guilty

1237
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:37,400
about buying because it's
expensive.

1238
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,440
But that's how then I remember
that yes, I was paid Once Upon a

1239
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,160
time for this because that
money's gone and then I got to

1240
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,200
pay taxes on it.
It's.

1241
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:44,880
Oh, and then your agent gets a
fees.

1242
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,760
Let's not depress the people
listening.

1243
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,400
Where we want you to be
creative.

1244
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,000
We want you to share your
stories.

1245
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,040
I mean, there are lots of
success stories out there and

1246
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,600
people you do get those book
deals and then get movie deals

1247
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,880
and that's just it can't happen
and you have to keep thinking

1248
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,160
that it might happen for you.
Otherwise, again, you have all

1249
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,520
those voices in your head.
And it also might take a long

1250
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,080
time.
It might take 20 years.

1251
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:05,760
You don't know.
You don't know who's going to

1252
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,400
find your book when or what
opportunities are going to come

1253
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,160
from that, you know?
That is very, very true.

1254
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:13,240
Yeah.
Don't give up.

1255
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:14,280
All right.
Well, OK.

1256
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,360
So how can people find you?
Where do you want them to go to

1257
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:18,600
get your books?
See you.

1258
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,520
Read more about you.
Yep, I spent a lot of time on

1259
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,800
Blue Sky.
That's where I'm probably most

1260
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:25,480
reachable.
I have a website,

1261
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,000
ecmyers.netand.com, where you
can keep up.

1262
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,520
Like I have a blog there that I
don't update very often, but

1263
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,600
that's kind of where you can
find all the links to my books

1264
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,480
that are coming out and stories
and things like that.

1265
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:37,520
I do have a Facebook page, Flip
the Coin.

1266
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,480
But yeah, generally, like the
website will point you.

1267
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:40,600
Actually, I have a link tree
now.

1268
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,800
I did get a link tree when all
the social media was sort of

1269
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,600
fracturing.
I was like, I need some place

1270
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,480
where people can go.
And on YouTube EC Meyers vids, I

1271
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,560
stream old video games every
Wednesday night at 10:00 PM

1272
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,520
Eastern.
Because that what time you

1273
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:53,760
start.
It's that's when I start at

1274
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,280
10:00 PM Eastern and I go, I'll
go as as late as I can go,

1275
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:58,800
usually at least a couple hours,
but.

1276
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,760
Sometimes you.
Do I'm really into a game and I

1277
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,040
don't have anything pressing the
next day and I'm not completely

1278
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:05,240
tired, then I'll go a little
later.

1279
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,480
You're really good at
interacting during that by the

1280
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:09,320
way, too.
I don't think I could multitask

1281
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:10,640
like that.
Thank you.

1282
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,000
It's a an acquired skill.
It's very weird when you start

1283
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,240
out you're talking to like
nobody, but it's been fun.

1284
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,320
It's been that's excellent fun
experience.

1285
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,960
Like I said, that's my hobby and
I just needed, I needed

1286
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,840
something to do that doesn't
make me money like that, that

1287
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:25,840
I'm not trying to make money
yet.

1288
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,400
I have other things that I that
don't make me money.

1289
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:28,920
But yeah, I'm not trying to
monetize it.

1290
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,000
It's just, it's just for fun.
It was like, you know, I love

1291
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,680
gaming so much, but when I get
really busy, I don't prioritize

1292
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,400
the gaming because I can't.
And setting up like a regular

1293
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,400
stream at least once a week
forces me to play a game for an

1294
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,280
hour or so.
So that's kind of how I settled

1295
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:44,360
on.
On streaming.

1296
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,520
Yeah, and it's been like 8-7 or
eight years and I'm actually

1297
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,880
pretty proud that I've only
missed it like a handful of

1298
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,640
times for various life reasons,
like I'm sick or, you know,

1299
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:54,680
we're away or something like
that.

1300
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,840
So it's one of the things that
I've done like most consistently

1301
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,400
for the longest time aside from
writing.

1302
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:01,880
That's good.
Well, thank you so much for

1303
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,480
joining me today and thanks for
listening to the Holly Hughes

1304
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:05,760
Podcast.
We'll see you soon.