How Tod Goldberg Writes Bestseller Crime Fiction—and Teaches Writers to Do the Same

1
00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:13,640
So welcome to this episode of
the Holly Hughes Podcast.

2
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:18,520
Today, I'm really excited for a
period of reasons to speak with

3
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:20,760
Todd Goldberry.
I even highlighted, look at

4
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,560
that.
That's your bio and your bio is

5
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,680
way too fucking long to read.
And I hate when people read

6
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,120
BIOS.
I had a Sherpa to read my bio.

7
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,280
It's good, it's impressive.
But like, for me, the summation

8
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,080
is you're prolific, you're
really good and you mentor other

9
00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,040
people.
That's all I can think about.

10
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,000
But I'm going to read some of it
because it's it's well worth it.

11
00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,880
Todd Goldberg is a New York
Times best selling author of 16

12
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,360
books.
And of these books, many have

13
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,920
been a finalist or won the
Hammond Prize, the Southwest

14
00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,800
Book of the Year, The Strand
Critics Award, International

15
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,200
Thriller of the Year, and many
more.

16
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,640
His short fiction and essays
appear widely and have been

17
00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,200
honored with a selection in Best
American Mystery, Suspense, and

18
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,880
Best American Essays.
Todd is a professor of Creative

19
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,640
Writing at the University of
California, Riverside, where he

20
00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,640
founded and directs the Low
Residency MFA in Creative

21
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,920
Writing and Writing for the
Performing Arts Thank.

22
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,800
You that all sounds correct,
yeah.

23
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,320
It does.
I actually, like said it out

24
00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:30,200
loud before I'd say it out loud
because like I had to cut out

25
00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,800
half the stuff.
So people go look at

26
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,680
toddgoldberg.com.
He's really impressive.

27
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,280
You didn't even touch on the
modeling.

28
00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:40,360
You know, it's like all those
years in Milan and it's just

29
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,480
falling off of my bio.
I know, you know, I reached out

30
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,520
to a producer I worked with.
He now runs a studio in LA, but

31
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,560
he was also attached to Mad Men
and the show that we worked on.

32
00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,200
I'm not on the IMD credits, CB
credits.

33
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,480
I was like like none of my names
are there.

34
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,120
You don't exist.
I don't.

35
00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,360
It's kind of fascinating how
production has erased me, but

36
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,120
that's I think it was like 2
names ago.

37
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,240
It's fine.
Slipped into a liminal space

38
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,520
that doesn't acknowledge future
romantic relationships.

39
00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:10,560
I think that's probably lucky
with today's.

40
00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:12,200
Date.
Yeah, well, yeah, you might be

41
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:12,760
on to something.
I.

42
00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,120
Might be on to something.
So OK, I'd like to also tell

43
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:22,560
everyone I Todd had the great
pleasure ish of like teaching me

44
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,240
how to write.
I took your classes at UCLA

45
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:32,920
extensions way back when.
Over 20 years ago, I was a bait.

46
00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:34,360
Like you should not have been
listening to me.

47
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:35,560
I didn't know what I was talking
about.

48
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,840
I was in my 30s still.
Yeah, you were a baby.

49
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,520
But like, my favorite, my
favorite Todd quote of yours.

50
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,840
First of all, I had taken Rob's
class 1st and I thought I

51
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,720
mentioned this with Sam Dunn.
Rob, at the time he clicked his

52
00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,200
pen like like this, I was like
motherfucker, like you need to

53
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,400
stop, click like I make me.
Crazy, yeah.

54
00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,680
I love him, but he was the first
class I took and I was like, I

55
00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,920
don't, I don't.
I don't know if I'm learning

56
00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:04,080
anything because I'm so
distracted free, but he's

57
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,080
brilliant.
And he's also another mentor

58
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,720
because like I got to meet him
when he was with GAIL and the

59
00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,280
house and the Long Beach, the
whole thing.

60
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,160
Like he's got so he's got good
talent.

61
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,240
And I was terrible.
Like I knew I wanted, I always

62
00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,960
had wanted to write, but I
didn't write because my mom was

63
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,440
like, how do you make a living?
I'm like, I have no idea.

64
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,120
Obviously so.
And even in college and

65
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,560
journalism, they're like, maybe
you want to get into lit.

66
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,960
And they were so condescending
about how they said that, that I

67
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:36,480
was like, but I did realize at
like 28, whatever, however old I

68
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,240
was, like, I do want to learn
how to write.

69
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,800
So I'm going to try UCLA
extensions.

70
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,000
I did not know the pool of
people.

71
00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,240
Obviously that would be in the
room, right?

72
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,120
I also didn't know how bad I'd
suck.

73
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,240
Like, I was so bad.
So you are a teacher now.

74
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,960
You created this MFA program.
One of your first comments to me

75
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,080
was it was about the big bad.
I wrote about the Big Bad wolf

76
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:00,840
getting out of jail early for
the.

77
00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:02,040
Right.
I remember this, yeah.

78
00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,200
Which isn't your cup of tea.
It's not really like your kind

79
00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,880
of genre, right?
Which is like a hot button I

80
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,280
want to talk about too.
But you were like, see this

81
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,680
sentence.
This sentence is good.

82
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:17,200
Make the rest like that one.
And I was like, Ouch.

83
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:18,920
That sounds like something I'd
say.

84
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,360
I know, but you were right.
But you were, you know.

85
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,280
It's a, it's a funny thing,
like, you know, having run an

86
00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:28,640
MFA program for almost 20 years
now, I founded the one at UCR in

87
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:34,440
2008, but I'd been directing the
other program there for previous

88
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,120
years, so it's been a while.
What I found is I, you know, I,

89
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,400
I don't read a ton of romance,
for instance, like for pleasure

90
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,120
or I don't read a ton of hard
fantasy for pleasure, but I know

91
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:51,960
what's good and I know like I
can see talent outside of my, my

92
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,240
entertainment preferences.
And I think that's the thing

93
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,320
that really separates really
good teachers from not so good

94
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,120
teachers is I've never, I've
never looked at something and

95
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,080
been like, well, I don't read
that.

96
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,440
So there's no way I can help
you.

97
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,480
I can help you because writing
is writing.

98
00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,200
Like it can take place on the
moon.

99
00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,440
It can take place in a, in a
diner.

100
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,680
It can be aliens, it can be
humans, it doesn't matter.

101
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,400
It can be talking dogs.
It shouldn't be, but it can be

102
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,720
talking dogs and the rules are
the same.

103
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,920
Like you, you have to have the
innate ability to convey

104
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,680
empathy.
You have to be able to replicate

105
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,440
human life in an entertaining
fashion.

106
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,240
You have to create suspense or
romance or whatever it might be.

107
00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:33,560
And that I think that's like one
of those things that if you

108
00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,280
don't know it, you're never
going to know it as a teacher,

109
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,960
but also as a writer.
Like you can't teach someone

110
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,320
empathy.
Yeah, I love that you're using

111
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,520
that word because out of all the
the 25,000 like post its I have

112
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,640
in front of me of everything I
want to tie together with you is

113
00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,280
like you were empathy and
loyalty as a human, right?

114
00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:55,960
You are.
You are both things you are when

115
00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,120
you're super snarky at the same
time and in your characters you

116
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,720
have that as well, right?
Like while reading your newest

117
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,280
work, which I devoured, like, I
think my family was a little

118
00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:09,240
worried.
They're like, what are you

119
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:10,440
doing?
Like leave me alone.

120
00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,920
I have to finish this.
I have to read about Todd's

121
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,480
troubled people.
Well, well, I like it because in

122
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,240
your essays, like I'm, I really
want to tie together.

123
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,520
Wait, I really want to do this
purposefully.

124
00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:25,440
I really want to tie together.
Only way Out, which is your book

125
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,600
that's coming out in December
and your essay Let them bleed

126
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,240
because like whatever my issues
in life might be minor daddy

127
00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,120
right my your paragraph on your
mother in that essay about her

128
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,800
cruelty and waiting for her to
die for 39 years.

129
00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,920
I'm I don't understand how
someone's so mean to his own

130
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,480
children can still be living.
Like that's literally a thought

131
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:55,400
I have so to like to share that.
And yet you are so kind and

132
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,520
loyal to the people around you.
And I find that ability to do be

133
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,800
both things fascinating.
Well, I think, you know, growing

134
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,040
up with bad parents makes you
intimate with your own

135
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,040
vulnerable own own
vulnerability.

136
00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,840
And if I didn't have good
siblings who I love and who

137
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,000
really took care of me, I was a
baby.

138
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,200
I'm still the baby of the
family.

139
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,360
Doesn't matter how old I am, I'm
still the baby and I'm treated

140
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,280
as such.
Having those siblings in my life

141
00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,960
that cared for me deeply and
really imbued with in me the

142
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,080
sense that, hey, this is going
to end.

143
00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,840
You know, you're going to leave
and you're not going to have to

144
00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,000
stay in this place forever with
with mom or in these emotions.

145
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,040
That was really important.
You know, my brother Lee is 9

146
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,720
years older than me.
My sister Karen is 7 years older

147
00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,360
than me, and my sister Linda's
only two years.

148
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,080
So my brother Lee and my sister
Karen graduate high school.

149
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,920
I went to college, left town
when I was still just a, you

150
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,800
know, just a kid, you know, just
a, you know, a nine year old.

151
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:03,280
And so to have them as sort of
my de facto parents essentially,

152
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,440
I think gave me ability later in
life to look at the situation

153
00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,720
with my mom and also with my dad
to somewhat lesser extent

154
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,600
because he wasn't in our lives.
And at this point, you know, I'm

155
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,000
54 years old to be able to look
at them and realize, like, hey,

156
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,480
they should not have been
married to each other.

157
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,040
They should not have had
children.

158
00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:22,680
They should not have been
parents.

159
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,440
But my mom was, you know,
undiagnosed bipolar for most of

160
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,160
her life.
My dad was a sociopath.

161
00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,480
And here I am.
I made it.

162
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,760
And I have a lot more
understanding of who my mom was

163
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,679
now.
Single mom raising 4 bad kids.

164
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,240
Bad being that they were all
super expressive published

165
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,040
writers like I would have.
I would have been a little angry

166
00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:49,920
too all the time.
I.

167
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,960
Get that?
You know, and so the when I

168
00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,240
wrote that essay, when they let
them bleed, I've been trying to

169
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,120
write that essay for a long,
long time.

170
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,960
It came out in a magazine 2013
and then was invest in American

171
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,320
that that next year.
You know, I tried to write that

172
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,760
essay about it's.
So for the listeners, you can

173
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,360
find this essay on my on my
website.

174
00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,560
It's an essay about really, it's
about seeing my mother die, but

175
00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:26,000
it's also an essay about all the
times I had been party to death

176
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,480
in strange ways as a kid growing
up and how it affected me.

177
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,800
But most specifically in
witnessing a boxer named Duke Ku

178
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,200
Kim get killed in the ring when
it was very, very young.

179
00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,240
And I, it wasn't like I was the
only one that saw it.

180
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,800
It was on television at like
10:00 AM on ABC.

181
00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:47,760
And how for so many years I had
essentially what would probably

182
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,640
be PTSD from seeing this guy get
killed and.

183
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:53,600
Which didn't exist back in the
day.

184
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,960
It was like tough enough watch.
Things in 1980 or whatever and

185
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,360
how it wasn't really until I saw
my mother die in front of me

186
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,280
that that moment was finally
eclipsed in my mind as like the

187
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,120
most damaging thing I'd seen.
But the actual result of writing

188
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,080
that essay and having it be in
that best American and and now

189
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,240
it's taught, you know, in
schools around the world is

190
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,480
talking about it has divided it
talking about the relationship I

191
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,240
had with my mother and the
relationship I had with these

192
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,200
experiences with people who have
gone through similar things.

193
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,440
I get emails about that essay
every week.

194
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,240
I was reading that.
I was like, that's amazing.

195
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,120
You respond to them or you just
like sticking in a file that's.

196
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,680
No, I always, I always respond
to them because it's people that

197
00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,200
are writing to me because they
finally figured out that they

198
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,880
aren't alone in the experience
that they've had.

199
00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:47,520
And like that's what we do as
artists.

200
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:52,200
Like we, we're sharing, we're
sharing experiences and to share

201
00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,120
that story with people, you
know, talking about the worst

202
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,600
day of a person's life,
generally seeing their mother

203
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,280
die and having it be something
that someone else can get

204
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,480
comfort in is really important.
And I think about something my

205
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,920
friend Emily Rapp once said, you
know, she wrote a book about her

206
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,920
son dying of Tay Sachs, the
Still Point of the Turning

207
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,320
World, which is an amazing book.
And I remember she was on the

208
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,800
Today Show being interviewed by
Savannah Guthrie.

209
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,720
And Savannah Guthrie was sobbing
the entire time that she

210
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,720
interviewed Emily.
And Emily was like, she was

211
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,120
present and she was there, and
she was receiving Savannah

212
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,800
Guthrie's reciprocal grief.
And I asked her, like, what is

213
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,160
it like to constantly have to
talk about the worst thing that

214
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,680
ever happened to you?
And she's like, it actually

215
00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:43,880
allows me to be more present
with it, to understand that

216
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,000
there's an existence beyond that
moment.

217
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,200
And it is these moments.
And that really helped me, like,

218
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,800
to understand, like, why
sometimes writing about

219
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,480
traumatic experiences can be
important.

220
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,040
And of course, the weird thing
is, you know, I write these

221
00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,320
crime novels that are not like
that essay or about many of the

222
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,280
essays that I write.
And my, you know, the people

223
00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,000
that read these crime novels
stumble on these essays and

224
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,200
they're like, oh, I didn't
realize that you had a rich

225
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:10,640
inner life.
Yeah.

226
00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:12,600
I'm.
I contain multitudes.

227
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,200
I saw.
I yeah, you are multi layered.

228
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,600
I don't know.
I saw a lot of parallels I think

229
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,200
also.
So I'm obsessed with Korea.

230
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,640
This is an obsession you
probably don't know about, but

231
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,320
it is real.
For me, it kind of like learning

232
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:26,960
about Korea got me through
COVID.

233
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,720
I learned it was like a history
I didn't know.

234
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,880
I felt a.
Lot of people at sourdough bread

235
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,360
and you had Korea.
I had Korea and now I've been

236
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,840
twice and I wanna go back again.
If I could live there for a

237
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,600
while, I would.
South.

238
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,280
We're talking South.
Obviously South Korea,

239
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,200
obviously, but you sort of.
Wanted to be a despot also and

240
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,040
so in the North Korea.
No, no, I don't have.

241
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,760
I have enough trauma like when I
hear you talk about and when I

242
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,600
read that as day, I read it
multiple times because it hit

243
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,280
different levels because I have,
you know, my own daddy issues,

244
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,080
which is like what I always had
in the back of my my head.

245
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,400
Like, when he does finally pass
away, then I'll start writing

246
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,800
that memoir about like that
dynamic.

247
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,760
But that's not what happened.
I was speaking with a memoirist

248
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,320
last week.
She's 83 and she's amazing.

249
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,680
Judy, another Goldman, a gold, a
Goldman instead of whatever.

250
00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,080
So Goldberg.
So she was like Holly, it's

251
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,480
about home for you and home is a
hot button in my own life

252
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,800
because I lost it to fire,
earthquake, divorce.

253
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,560
It wasn't safe because his
addiction like all of the

254
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:34,960
things.
So where yours is mom, mine is

255
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,920
dad and I, I, I know the fear of
becoming him, right?

256
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,560
It's, it's massive.
Like I didn't drink for like a

257
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:44,800
year when I was young because I
was like, am I an alcoholic?

258
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,440
Like is, is this what an
alcoholic is?

259
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,560
And I was like, Nah, I could
just not drink and it's not a

260
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:52,360
problem.
But there's something about like

261
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,760
Korea that when I visited, I say
this often like I have no

262
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,640
business feeling so comfortable
there.

263
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,280
I am keep trying to learn the
language.

264
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,520
I found out I'm dyslexic trying
to learn the language literally

265
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,600
like I'm like, how many coping
mechanisms do I have?

266
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,200
The amount of reading and
writing that I do that I've

267
00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,720
figured out how dyslexic I am
trying to learn a different

268
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,480
language.
Yeah, that's crazy.

269
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,000
I also blame it on their letter
yoke, which is looks like a

270
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,200
rage, but sounds like, which is
in that guy's name, which is Kim

271
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,840
Doku, Right.
When I was like, when I saw your

272
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,120
romanization, I was like, that's
not that's not right.

273
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,440
Whoever did that first
romanization, it's like,

274
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,040
whatever.
But I feel home there.

275
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,600
A stranger in a strange land.
I don't know what that is to or

276
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,480
if that is about how we connect
or not connect.

277
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,120
When we do have that brokenness
or broken connection that allows

278
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,960
us to be creative.
I think once in a site class,

279
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,640
like way back in 1987, someone
was like every famous person has

280
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:55,400
a tragic childhood.
I was, like, fascinating.

281
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,640
Probably right.
I mean, look, you got to be

282
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:02,000
intimate with like pain if
you're going to be even if

283
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,520
you're just an actor who has to
be like a method actor, you

284
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,880
know, if you've never
experienced pain, then how do

285
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,440
you know how to even fake it?
You know, how do you model that

286
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,680
behavior?
I mean, great actors are capable

287
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,240
of doing things, you know, that
they've not experienced, of

288
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,760
course.
But I think particularly as a

289
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:27,840
writer like yourself, you know,
it's easy, I think when you've

290
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,880
gone through some stuff to put
yourself in other people's

291
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,240
shoes, irrespective of the
experience that they've had.

292
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,600
And so, you know, when I was
writing about the boxer dying

293
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,160
and looking back over the course
of my life and in my mind, he

294
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,000
had been, you know, this man
because he was boxing for the,

295
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,680
for a title, You know, he was,
he was 22 or whatever.

296
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,320
It's like had no one is an adult
at 22.

297
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,920
They, there's a reason they
don't let you rent cars until

298
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,840
you're 25.
Like you should not be allowed

299
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,360
to do.
You probably shouldn't be

300
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,480
allowed to vote until you're 30.
I kind of really.

301
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,840
I'm not going to lie, especially
nowadays, I've seen a lot of

302
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,840
these kids and like, oh boy.
Yeah, I don't.

303
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:08,480
Yeah, I've, I'm beginning to
think more and more, maybe 50,

304
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,480
maybe 50, but, you know, being
able to identify with other

305
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,560
people even though you've never
walked in their shoes.

306
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,520
Like, that's why we're artists.
That that's why, you know,

307
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,120
someone can look at a piece of
rock and carve out David from

308
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,560
it, right?
Because they they can imagine

309
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,360
what something can be without
ever having the proof that it

310
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,360
could be.
So how do you mentor that?

311
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,200
Now write.
The one down write that was a

312
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,080
good line.
Well, we'll have it on.

313
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,680
We'll have it on thing.
I'm kind of curious like so I

314
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,840
get like I said, you were like
this sentence sucks.

315
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,080
Be better.
I and then I actually came back.

316
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,120
You also turn me on to Amy
Bender.

317
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,000
You turn me on to Sam, Don and
Rachel, like all these other

318
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,040
people who you thought could
help and help me learn.

319
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,040
I'm like, so I know I was
terrible then I don't like, you

320
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,520
know, not every whatever.
I was definitely learning and

321
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,200
wanting how.
How old were you when you were

322
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:57,520
in those classes?
You were younger than me.

323
00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,520
I was, Yeah.
No, I'm older than you.

324
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,440
I'm older than you.
I'm 54 and you're you're.

325
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,359
Only 56.
So we were the same age.

326
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:06,280
Yeah.
Yeah, essentially.

327
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,599
So you were in my class.
I was like, this was like 2002

328
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,319
or something.
And so I was like 31 years old,

329
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,839
and you were 32 or 33, whatever
it might be.

330
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:23,200
So we were basically kids
teaching kids about this thing.

331
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:24,560
You know, I'd published by that
point.

332
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:25,880
I'd published two or three
books.

333
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,359
I know you hated Living Dead
Girl.

334
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:28,680
Afterward you're like, don't
read it.

335
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:29,880
I'm like, of course I'm going to
read it.

336
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,080
Of course I have.
It was just so.

337
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,480
Sad.
But I've really come to

338
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,600
appreciate that book actually
over the years, because it's

339
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,280
such, you know, I've been really
lucky.

340
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,480
Every book I've written has
stayed in print, you know, so my

341
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,520
first book came out 25 years ago
and you can still buy it, which

342
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,640
is crazy.
And Living Dead Girl, a book

343
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,880
that came out in 2002, people
still buy it and read it and

344
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,160
want to talk to me about it.
And I, I barely remember the

345
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,640
plot of it or who did the bad
things.

346
00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,200
Like if I can have a vague sense
of it.

347
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:01,800
Is it the spinning top at the
end of What's That Movie With?

348
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,400
Yeah, of inception or whatever.
Yeah, that's it.

349
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,840
But at the time, you know, I
felt like, it's so sad.

350
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,800
I don't want to put anyone else
through what I was going through

351
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,400
when I wrote that book, you
know, and but I recognize now

352
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,960
like, oh, that's a really good
sort of picture of me as a, as a

353
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,200
man, but also as a writer trying
to figure out who I was and what

354
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,080
I wanted to be.
And you know, what I felt about

355
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,640
things.
I mean, there's so much buried

356
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,840
personal stuff in that book
itself of stuff that I was going

357
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,760
through that's hard for me to
look at it objectively because

358
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,960
it's so filled with like, you
know, all the stuff that I would

359
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,120
later spend several years in
therapy for and.

360
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,000
So well worth, well worth it.
Several years ago, Soho Press

361
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,920
put out a new edition of it.
And they asked me to like if I

362
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,880
wanted to update it, you know,
go through it.

363
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,640
And I was like, oh, and I read
it again and I was like, there's

364
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,720
like 5 sentences I cleaned up.
There's a typo I fixed, but

365
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,040
reading it with sort of the eyes
of a person didn't really

366
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,160
remember it.
I was like, oh, this is a pretty

367
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,600
good book.
We lived in bed with a third act

368
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:14,160
in it, but this is it earned the
awards it lost.

369
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,400
Here's because when I asked you
about it back in the day at like

370
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,440
one of your other book signings,
you were just full of wisdom.

371
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,440
Like I am like my brain is just
going to all these quotes that I

372
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,080
remember of yours and I can't
remember why I go to my room

373
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,320
sometimes.
But like the quote is like you

374
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,640
were you were like, no writer
likes their first book that's

375
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,240
published.
And I didn't really understand.

376
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,000
I was like, but it's such an
accomplishment, right?

377
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,680
Like you did a dream and it was
a dream and I didn't even know

378
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,320
that I could write that many
pages, right.

379
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,320
So for me as a contemporary,
someone my age, you actually

380
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,280
lived your dream from the
beginning.

381
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,480
You're like, I need to go to be
a writer and look at this shit.

382
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,520
I'm a writer.
That to me was, Oh my God, it

383
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,320
can be done.
It when I think about it, it

384
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,440
seems crazy to me because my
first book came out, I was 29

385
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,480
years old.
So I sold it when I was 27 years

386
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,520
old.
And that seems crazy, you know,

387
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,280
and looking back over the course
of my creative life and now, of

388
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,480
course, for all these years,
having, you know, directed the

389
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,440
lives of writers, including
yourself, like to think that I

390
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,480
knew anything when I was 27
years old that was worth being

391
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,360
read by a living soul.
I think you're.

392
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,280
Being too modest and I don't
know his version of you at all,

393
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,880
I just.
Well, I mean, so it's just

394
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,240
something that I've sort of when
I, when I look back, I mean, as

395
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,320
you can see, like there's framed
photos behind me of a bunch of

396
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,200
my books.
Frankly, the wall's not big

397
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,040
enough for all of them.
And so somewhere back there, oh,

398
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,360
it's right there is my first
book.

399
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,480
And sometimes I look at it and I
was like, I don't even, I don't

400
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,560
have any memory of writing it.
Like I don't remember actually

401
00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:58,840
sitting down and typing that
book.

402
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,720
But what I do remember is that
sense that everything was right

403
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,040
in front of me, that if I did
just this one thing right, if I,

404
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,200
if I could write a book that
people wanted to read, that it

405
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,880
was going to open the doors for
me to tell the kinds of stories

406
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,640
that I wanted to tell for the
rest of my life.

407
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:23,240
And like that was really weighty
at at 272829 years old, like to

408
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,200
recognize, hey, you know what,
your future's here, what are you

409
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,080
going to do?
And The funny thing is, like, I

410
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,400
think about it in relationship
sometimes to athletes who, you

411
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,800
know, a professional athlete,
they get their dreams achieved

412
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,440
typically by the time they're
22, you know, they're coming out

413
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,240
of college or something.
But athletes and artists like

414
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,920
singers.
There's a big thing about your

415
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,840
27th year like.
Saturn return, baby.

416
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,720
That's some woo stuff.
It's Saturn return.

417
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,840
Baseball players, football
players, musicians, writers,

418
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,640
they seem to like at 27 is when
the shit comes together and

419
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,560
they're finally able to do it
and, and then replicate that

420
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,520
over for the rest of their life.
And so I look at that book and

421
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,520
I'm like, oh, you know what?
Like, I was 27 when I started to

422
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,480
write that book, and like that
taught me how to be a

423
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,720
professional for the rest of my
life.

424
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,200
And so I have a real deep
appreciation for that

425
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,040
experience, even if I don't
quite remember it.

426
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,920
No, I'm like really curious
about your process because

427
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,440
again, you are insanely prolific
and you're running a program and

428
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:31,440
you have literary, you have so
many things like you're, you're

429
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,320
not lazy by any means, right?
Like, you're not the kind of

430
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,640
person who like mulls.
Like like when you were talking

431
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,120
about, oh, do I rewrite a book?
I did.

432
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:43,440
I'm like, I have a book that I
wrote forever ago.

433
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,240
Got my agent the all that stuff.
And I did the edit she wanted.

434
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,520
And then we parted ways.
And then I reread the book and I

435
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,520
hated it.
It wasn't my book anymore.

436
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,840
So that was like an interesting
experience.

437
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:59,320
I have very distinct memories of
when I could tell when you love

438
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,640
someone's writing and you had a
favorite in the class and

439
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,760
Anjali, Alex and I would all be
like looking at each other in

440
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,280
the room, be like, Oh, that's
Todd's favorite this time.

441
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,400
But like there would be a light
and you were you would be like,

442
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,560
I would I would turn him on to
my agent, which is like huge,

443
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:15,960
right?
That's not like something

444
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,880
especially I think people in LA
do right when I left LA, people

445
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:20,960
are like, oh, you just want to
meet him.

446
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,680
He's my friend.
It was very kind of different

447
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,240
than the vibe there.
But you are a professional, you

448
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,800
do it and you're mentoring.
So like I don't know how you

449
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,280
balance all of that.
Like I when I'm researching,

450
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,840
it's like, I don't know how you
go from like researching to

451
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,800
reading other people's work to
running a program.

452
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,160
Like do you have dedicated days?
Do you have ideas that just like

453
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,960
fly out of your head all day
long?

454
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,200
You're just having to catch them
with like tape or something?

455
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,520
Like how does?
That work, you know, it's funny.

456
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,760
So I typically have a new book
every 18 months now.

457
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,000
So you write crime fiction,
there's an expectation you're

458
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,600
going to have a book every 18
months or so.

459
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,520
There's, there's been periods
where it's been a little longer,

460
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,240
like I was working on ATV show
that didn't end up getting shot,

461
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,520
but I spent, you know, a year
and a half writing scripts and

462
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,760
working on the show and didn't
write books for that year.

463
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:17,680
But like as a professional
writer, unlike in genre fiction,

464
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,280
where or not genre fiction,
literary fiction, or it could be

465
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,120
3-4, five years in between books
and it's fine.

466
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,360
Genre fiction readers, they want
you every 18 months.

467
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,600
You know, a writer like Michael
Connolly, for instance, or my

468
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,400
brother, they'll do two or three
books a year.

469
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,040
But that's also their main
source of income is, you know,

470
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,440
from the books.
I had always wanted to be a

471
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:42,520
professor.
Always.

472
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,800
Had always wanted to do that.
Yeah, always.

473
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,880
No.
Always.

474
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,720
How did I not know that?
It was, I mean, look, to have an

475
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,800
audience staring at you,
listening to every word you say

476
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,000
with a personality like mine,
like he was either do stand up

477
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,680
comedy or be a professor.
And I want people to know it's

478
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,720
smart.
Obviously, professor, it is.

479
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,160
Because I was so when I was a
kid, I had profound dyslexia.

480
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,800
Profound.
Like I thought my name was dot

481
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,680
for most of my life.
Did you not know this?

482
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:13,960
I did not know this.
No really.

483
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,600
Like I figured I was dyslexia
because I couldn't see space

484
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,600
between letters and I didn't see
words anymore.

485
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,600
I saw them as shapes, just the
outline.

486
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,360
Well, and that's, that was sort
of how I was when I was very

487
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:26,680
young, but I was, I was
profoundly dyslexic.

488
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,520
I was told that I wouldn't read
or write above a fourth grade

489
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,400
level.
And which I can, I, I can be in

490
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,040
that moment instantly like
saying it.

491
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,640
And I'm sitting there and I can
smell the spearmint gum on the

492
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,920
eye doctor's breath and my mom
behind him and him saying that

493
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,040
to my mom.
And my mom, for all of her

494
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,680
faults, she was a writer.
And she was like, you can't say

495
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,320
that about my son.
You can't say that.

496
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,200
Like, we read and we write in
this family.

497
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,520
He's going to read and he's
going to write.

498
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,560
And so this is when we were
still living in the Bay Area and

499
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,160
she had me in all these special
classes at like, Stanford and

500
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,520
Berkeley with what I presume
that must have been masters

501
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,760
students where I got trained out
of the dyslexia.

502
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:09,400
By the time I was 11, I could
read, but I couldn't read up

503
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,640
until about 10.
And so I was in all these

504
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,600
special classes and they didn't
know what to do with kids with

505
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,840
dyslexia in 1979.
No, I know that's what I'm

506
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,000
saying.
Like when I learned I was

507
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,600
dyslexic and I was told like I
was told that if you were

508
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,960
dyslexic you couldn't read.
I was like but I can read so

509
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,800
that just means I'm not.
Yeah, they didn't know what to

510
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,960
do back then.
And so I was in all these

511
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,160
classes with, with kids, with,
you know, with profound

512
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,480
disabilities.
And so I thought I was, I

513
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,200
thought I had a profound
disability.

514
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,640
And I also was treated like that
by other second graders or

515
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,160
whatever.
And so I really had a chip on my

516
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,280
shoulder from a very young age
to let people know like, hey,

517
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,400
you thought I was dumb.
I'm not dumb.

518
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:51,960
You thought I couldn't read.
I can read.

519
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,120
You thought I couldn't write.
I'm going to write and I'm going

520
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:58,280
to show you and to have
wonderful teachers along the way

521
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,600
that really edified that in me,
gave me a strong, strong desire

522
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,680
to be a professor.
And so by the time you and I

523
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,400
met, you know, I'd been teaching
at UCLA for a couple years at

524
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,640
that point.
And it was only a couple years

525
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,680
after that that I started
working at UC Riverside.

526
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,520
And then a couple years after
that that I started my own

527
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:21,040
Graduate School.
But they're, they're related

528
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,920
dreams.
I couldn't be in this position

529
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,600
if I didn't write books.
If I didn't write books, I think

530
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,120
I'd be a, a, an angry professor.
But I, I, I really come to

531
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,760
teaching with a lot of joy.
I love it, You know, it's, it's,

532
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,120
it's a dream come true for me.
And so I'm able to

533
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:38,600
compartmentalize my days pretty
well, You know, when I'm working

534
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,600
on a book or a script or an
essay or whatever, typically

535
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,040
right in the morning.
So I you know, I used to write

536
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,200
it in the middle of night, but.
I remembered that part, yeah.

537
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,560
I can't do that anymore or.
Too old for that, right?

538
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,800
Too old and there's too much
good TV.

539
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,280
So, you know, I'll write from,
from, you know, 10 until 4:00

540
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,240
and then, you know, from 4:00
until 6:00.

541
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,520
I'll handle the business of the
university unless I've got a

542
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,400
zoom or some other meeting of
the day.

543
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,560
But I'm really good about
saying, all right, I'm going to

544
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,000
put in my 8 hours and I'm going
to compartmentalize it and I'm

545
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,760
only going to do X thing of X
time.

546
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,880
And what that allows me to do as
a writer is I don't, I don't

547
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,040
putz around like when I'm, when
I'm going to write, I'm going to

548
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,480
write.
That doesn't mean I don't have

549
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,960
the anxiety.
I I totally still have the

550
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,120
anxiety, but it means that when
I sit down to do it, I actually

551
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,520
fill up the page.
Whether or not it's any good,

552
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,480
you know, who knows?
But I have a really like, I have

553
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,920
a pretty sure method now, which
is that I write and rewrite

554
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,240
every single day.
So I start the day by rewriting

555
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,800
what I wrote the previous day,
going over those 5 or 10 pages

556
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,400
or two pages or whatever it
might be, and then going

557
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,680
forward.
And I always stop when I'm hot

558
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,560
so that I'm not.
I don't stop when I'm petering

559
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:51,760
out and I can't figure out what
to do.

560
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,680
Like I'll stop in the middle of
a sentence Even so that when I

561
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,640
pick up the next day I'm in the
middle of a sentence.

562
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,760
That gives me anxiety.
I know, I know, it's probably

563
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,600
not the perfect way to do.
Things No, no, I love it.

564
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,560
That's a great.
I think that's an amazing tip

565
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:05,840
actually.
Like stopping in the middle of

566
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:06,920
the sentence cuz then you're
like.

567
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,800
Yeah, cuz I'm like, I'm eager to
get back.

568
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,720
And so it really becomes sort of
a, a form of muscle memory for

569
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,040
me now.
And I sit down and say, all

570
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,720
right, I'm going to rewrite.
That's going to take me probably

571
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,680
2 hours to go through these
pages and, and telling myself

572
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,680
you're only going to look at
what you wrote yesterday.

573
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,720
Not because the the curse of the
beginning writer is you write

574
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,040
rewrite page one every day of
your life.

575
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,320
And so when I finally do do it,
like sort of larger editorial

576
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,520
rewrite of myself before it gets
to my agent or my editor or

577
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,360
whatever, it's not triage, you
know, it's just sort of taking

578
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,320
out stitches.
But that, you know, that sort of

579
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,760
compartmentalization has allowed
me to be prolific, but also like

580
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,360
when when I have to be, when I
have to work outside of the

581
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,920
guidelines to give myself, I can
also really turn it on.

582
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,240
So last year, my wife Wendy had
cancer, and I had a book under

583
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,360
contract.
And, like, you know, it's

584
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,480
impossible to write funny, dark,
weird stuff when you're sitting

585
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,720
at the infusion center all day
and when, you know, you're

586
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,880
trying to be the person who's
not losing their shit every

587
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,600
single day.
And so Wendy finally got her

588
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,640
clean bill of health, was out of
chemo and radiation like in

589
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:29,000
October of last year.
And my book was due in December.

590
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,000
And I had like, I'd written
like, you know, 100 pages or

591
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,000
something, 100 good pages.
And Wendy was clean on October

592
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,240
30th.
And I said, all right, well, I

593
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:47,720
got to finish this book.
And so I said two months, like

594
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,760
let's go.
And I wrote that book in two

595
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,760
months.
I wrote another 100,000 words in

596
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,440
two months.
But I have so much pent up, you

597
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,400
know, from the fear and the
anxiety and the worry and all

598
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,960
that stuff.
When I was released of that and

599
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:07,640
could just write, it was just
like, and so by the time

600
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,520
December had come along, I had
written, you know, 450 pages of

601
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,640
a book, 350 of which did not
exist when I, you know, on

602
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,440
October 30th.
And then I was able to go back

603
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,080
and cut and rewrite and do all
that stuff.

604
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,240
And that's, you know, that's the
book that you read the other day

605
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,080
that's coming out.
In I devoured it.

606
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,000
I didn't read it, I I sucked it
up.

607
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,080
I have written all my favorite
lines down because like some of

608
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,040
them are just and my name is in
it so.

609
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,320
I felt so.
That's true.

610
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,320
Your name is in it.
It's like, oh, I'm somewhere in

611
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,400
his subconscious.
That or another tart name,

612
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,440
Holly, but fine, it's fine.
So, you know, the, the, the

613
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,480
reality is like as a, as a
professional, sometimes you just

614
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,200
gotta like, say, all right,
well, I know how to do this.

615
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,680
I'm just gonna fucking do it.
I'm just gonna go outside of the

616
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,880
sort of the system of writing
that you've created for yourself

617
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,680
in the past.
So thank you for talking about

618
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:01,840
Wendy.
I didn't know if we were going

619
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,960
to go there or not because that
was a lot.

620
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,440
And that was one of those things
I'm like, does he know me well

621
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:07,480
enough?
Do I say something?

622
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,640
Do I not say something?
Like while it was all happening,

623
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,560
I was like, very with my own
dramas, I was like, maybe I'll

624
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,800
just be quiet.
Like I'll just be quiet and I'll

625
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,160
watch from here.
And then I'll just be happy that

626
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,240
she rang the bell 3.
Times no one's ever upset to

627
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,960
find out someone's thinking.
About it, OK, that is true.

628
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:24,480
Unless you're thinking of
killing them.

629
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:26,760
Right, that is that is very
true.

630
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,480
Anyway, I was watching that and
I I'm in that situation.

631
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,240
So and I was very envious of
your healthcare, but that's like

632
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,800
a whole other conversation.
Let's we're not going there.

633
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,400
We're so not going there.
The benefit of.

634
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,000
Being a professor at the
University of California is.

635
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,480
You get good healthcare.
Yeah, so do.

636
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,160
You have like is it your process
the whole time?

637
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,480
Like are you I'm assuming
structured and you write linear

638
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,560
because I am the most non linear
like I'll have a beat outline,

639
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,400
but some days I can't go like
emotionally to the space I need

640
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,000
to go for a chapter.
So I'll run and hide over here

641
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,600
or I'll write multiple things so
I'll have an essay going while

642
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,720
I'm working like so I can just
hide for the most part I.

643
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,960
Write pretty linearly, but that
doesn't mean I write everything

644
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,840
at the same time, you know, so
like I'll, I'll get 100 pages

645
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,680
into something I realize, oh, I
need another chapter here.

646
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,960
I need another chapter here.
Chapter 5 is really chapter 2.

647
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,960
Chapter 2 should probably not
exist.

648
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,240
So, you know, I, I really allow
myself the freedom to minority

649
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,440
report stuff, you know, really
just move stuff around and, and,

650
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,720
and rewrite and not, and not
feel too precious about stuff.

651
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,760
I have the benefit of having a
great editor for many years for

652
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,120
the, the series of books, the
gangsterland books that I wrote

653
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,680
in the short story collection,
the Low Desert, Dan Spatenka at

654
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,800
Counterpoint Press, who, you
know, really encourages me to

655
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,720
write big.
And then the two of us can

656
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,920
figure out, you know, where,
where the good stuff is.

657
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,120
I was going to ask you about
that.

658
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:54,400
What?
What's that?

659
00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:00,280
What that has done for me is
it's giving me the freedom to

660
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,320
not be concerned that I'm going
to fuck it up, that we're going

661
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,160
to find it together.
But then like the last book that

662
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,280
I wrote, he's not the editor.
This was sort of a one off book

663
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,760
with a, with a different
publisher.

664
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,360
And I had to sort of apply Dan's
edicts to myself.

665
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,719
And really, you know, question
like, OK, can I edit myself the

666
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,159
way that Dan has edited me in
the past so that when I turn

667
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,639
this book in, the readers aren't
going to notice that it reads

668
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:27,719
any differently because there's
a different editor or whatever.

669
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:31,280
But more importantly, that it's
the best of me because what

670
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,960
those four books I wrote for
Counterpoint, and I'm writing

671
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,199
another book for Counterpoint
right now.

672
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,400
What those four books did at
Counterpoint is it changed the

673
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,920
course of my career because for
the first time in my life, I'd

674
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,239
really had sort of a profound
editorial experience.

675
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,920
And it frankly raised me.
It raised me as a writer, but it

676
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,520
raised my profile, as you know,
sales wise, yeah.

677
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,639
And awards and all that stuff
actually give to that series.

678
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:57,960
To people as gifts, I just give
them the whole series.

679
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,440
It's the perfect.
Holiday gift it is though,

680
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,200
everyone.
Gangsterling and like gun toting

681
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,560
Rabbi, come on, it's it's the
perfect.

682
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:11,740
Thing so you know, I I don't
typically write fiction and non

683
00:35:11,740 --> 00:35:15,280
fiction at the same time.
I used to do a lot of book

684
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,520
criticism and I don't as much
anymore because I just don't

685
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,000
have the time.
But I do write sort of usually

686
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,360
two or three big essays for
magazines every year.

687
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,560
So I have a have an essay that's
coming out in Ulta shortly after

688
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,800
this airs about my own writing
mentor, a man named Tom Fyler,

689
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,360
and my relationship with him and
sort of these strange things

690
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,960
that he had saddled with saddled
me with as a as a younger

691
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,880
person.
And this is an essay.

692
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,440
It's like 4000 words I wrote for
Ulta, but I wrote it over the

693
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,760
course of an entire year.
So I with my nonfiction, it's a

694
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,600
whole different process.
It's typically something I write

695
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,560
a paragraph at a time or a page
at a time or a line at a time,

696
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,840
because I think dissecting your
own life requires a different

697
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,600
skill set than creating
fictional lives on the page.

698
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,920
I love so part of like why I.
Started this podcast is like

699
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,400
what about the creative people
who are intermediate or

700
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,360
advanced, but not like making a
living or like like, because

701
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,840
there's lots of us right?
Like I sold a bunch of essays.

702
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,920
I I was on a roll with it for a
couple years.

703
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,920
I was making 100 bucks an essay.
Like you're not making whatever

704
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,520
to go to.
Go back to your other question,

705
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,160
like how?
To find a peer group, it really,

706
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,440
you know, the nice thing about
the Internet is it has opened

707
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,840
opportunities that wherever you
are, there's someone who has

708
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,440
the, that shared affinity that
lives somewhere.

709
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,240
And so there's so many, you
know, good online programs now

710
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:46,280
that you could join just to get
some friends and to start doing

711
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,200
stuff.
So like where, where you and I

712
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,480
were, UCLA extension, it's
primarily online now.

713
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,280
You know, there's, most of their
classes are online.

714
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,760
I, I, I think it's probably 70%
online.

715
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,320
So a place like the UCLA
extension riders program or the

716
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:07,240
new school or Stanford or
Berkeley, a lot of major

717
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:09,880
universities have extension
riding programs.

718
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,640
And so at least what you can do
is find some people online that

719
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:13,840
you're going to be friendly
with.

720
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,120
Or, you know, there's so many of
these critique groups you can

721
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,560
find on, you know, Facebook or
whatever, or Reddit that are

722
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,840
good.
But the hard thing is, is like

723
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,240
being bold enough to go out
there and look for it, being

724
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:29,360
willing to pay for it sometimes
I think is a challenge.

725
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,200
And like if like by nature, if
you want to be a writer, doesn't

726
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:33,520
mean typically that you're
loaded.

727
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,160
You know, going to writers
conferences, I think is a

728
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,600
crapshoot.
Most of those are just money

729
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,320
grabs by the people throwing the
conferences.

730
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,520
So like your, your best bet, I
think typically is those sort of

731
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,480
classes that you can find
locally, even at, at a local

732
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,360
Community College.
There's going to be creative

733
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,040
writing classes that you can
take where you can find other

734
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,280
people, but you know, you just
need that one other person

735
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,720
that's cool and that is smarter
than you, that can read your

736
00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:04,400
work and is is willing to talk
to you about it.

737
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,680
But online has created that
ability to have that community.

738
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,600
There's so many good places that
are out there, but you know, I

739
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,440
there's also so many scams out
there.

740
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,040
There's so many predators that
feast on riders I think about.

741
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,560
I don't you were already gone
from LA when there was this

742
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,760
writer named Anna March that was
operating out here.

743
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,920
Did did you hear about her?
I don't remember her.

744
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,320
So I think he had already moved.
To Colorado by that point.

745
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,080
That's where you were.
I did.

746
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,360
Oh, no.
Oh, that's so funny.

747
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:35,840
That was the starter.
Marriage, divorce.

748
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,360
Yeah.
So I was in Colorado for two

749
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:38,800
years, and then I came back to
LA Yeah.

750
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,120
So this woman, Anna.
March, like she had published

751
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,600
like a couple essays.
She had been in Modern Love in

752
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,680
the New York Times and she moved
to LA and like, she sort of

753
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,520
anointed herself like the non
fiction guru, I can get you into

754
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,800
modern love.
And she threw a party.

755
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,960
I remember this very vividly.
She threw a party at like the

756
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,480
Roosevelt Hotel in LA with free
alcohol.

757
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,160
And she invited like every
writer in Southern California to

758
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,760
come to this.
And so every writer's like free

759
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,760
alcohol.
I'll go.

760
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,640
And as soon as I met her, I saw
exactly what she was.

761
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,440
I was like, I know who you are.
I know who you are.

762
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,240
And she started, like, getting
all these people wrapped up in

763
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:29,040
her circle.
And she would have these, like,

764
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,000
writers conferences in Italy,
and then everyone would fly out

765
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,240
to Italy and she wouldn't be
there.

766
00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:36,880
She's like, oh, I got sick or
whatever.

767
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,480
And so like, the whisper network
started, like, there's something

768
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,320
wrong with this person.
I was like, well, yeah, she's a

769
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,920
grifter.
Like I I sense that immediately.

770
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:52,120
She then got Anne Frank's
Auschwitz number tattooed on her

771
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,680
arm.
Shut up.

772
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,280
Yeah.
Because.

773
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,560
She imagined herself as if Anne
Frank had grown up, that she

774
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,000
would have been Anne Frank's
daughter.

775
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,320
Like this was part of the story,
the mythology that she was

776
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,080
telling about herself.
And she started a magazine, all

777
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:09,880
this stuff, and she would reach
out to me all the time and I

778
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,000
would ignore her completely
because I saw exactly what she

779
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,600
is.
And finally, like, she had

780
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,040
scammed enough people with this
Italy thing that people started

781
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,480
looking into her.
And of course, it turned out

782
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,520
that she was this profound
grifter with like 30 different

783
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,240
names who'd gone around the
country defrauding NPR stations.

784
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,280
Like she would go into an NPR
station and set up their, their

785
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,400
pledge Dr. and steal all the
money.

786
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:41,480
And, you know, it'd be such a
small, you know, amount of money

787
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,880
for like, you know, Bozeman,
NPR, she stole $9000 and

788
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,080
something, but it accumulated.
And finally when she got to LA

789
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,360
and she was pulling this grift
in LA, people start getting

790
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,480
wise.
And the LA Times wrote this

791
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,040
giant expose on her and she just
went poof.

792
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,160
But she's, she's just one of
those grifters who like, like

793
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,120
got caught and actually stopped.
There's so many grifters that

794
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,040
are out there that continue to
do it.

795
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,000
So, you know, I, I encourage
writers to actually do a thing

796
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,200
that you might not think I would
encourage them to do, which is

797
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,080
reach out to an author and say,
do you know of any critique

798
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,440
groups that like that?
You are like happy about it or,

799
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,640
or editors that you think
someone should work with because

800
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,000
I've always got access to folks
and I'm always telling them,

801
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,360
hey, you need an editor, talk to
Gina Frangello.

802
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,000
You know, you need a class.
Take this class at UCLA

803
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,320
Extension, whatever it might be.
And you know, not every author's

804
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,760
going to respond, but nice ones
will say, hey, you know what?

805
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,920
Oh, do you live in my same town?
Cal State Fullerton's got a

806
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,280
thing.
Or, you know, whatever it might

807
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,640
be.
But like, you can't write in a

808
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,440
vacuum anymore.
You need to have that other

809
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,040
person that looks at your work.
That's true, and you know it.

810
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,200
It's a funny thing, you know, I
write about bad people.

811
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,600
You do like That's my.
Job but I like.

812
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,320
Them.
I like your bad people.

813
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,600
How do you do that?
But try to write about.

814
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,880
Bad people that are trying to be
good ish, you know, often times

815
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,920
good ish better.
And I think a lot of that comes

816
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,920
from like recognizing as a young
person, like, oh, this person's

817
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,800
not great, but they they don't
know that they think they're

818
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,440
good.
They think they're good.

819
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,440
They're the hero of their own
story.

820
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,640
And so I think I often times
write about bad people who think

821
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,560
that they're good or think that
they are the arbiter of morality

822
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,480
or whatever it might be, because
it also creates a wild card.

823
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,880
Like, you know, if someone
believes that they're good and

824
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,520
they're objectively horrible,
they'll do anything on the page.

825
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,200
And for me, that's, that's the
fun thing to write.

826
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,000
That's the fun thing to read
about your work, you.

827
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,400
Evoke sympathy of with these
people.

828
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:44,640
Bad people, yes.
I don't.

829
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,840
Know how you do that?
They do, and you're unflinching.

830
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:48,200
With it, you're like, no,
they're bad.

831
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,760
I'm not even going to show you
where they're really good.

832
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,840
Oh, this one I'll all right.
I won't let you bleed to death.

833
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,120
I don't want to give anything
away, right?

834
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,640
I won't let you bleed to death
15 years later.

835
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,360
What?
What did he just do to me?

836
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,160
He didn't even finish or wait.
I have like 3 favorite quotes in

837
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:03,800
your book and I really want to
like go there.

838
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,160
I love that.
The opinion on Oprah in your

839
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:11,520
book, your newest book, Like I
laughed so loud when I read

840
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,120
that.
I also loved about punching the

841
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,640
poet, which was like, because
time in proximity.

842
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:21,440
Yeah, that was like the best.
And then.

843
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:25,360
And then for the emotional part,
my favorite line of Rodney's is

844
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,800
missing is dead.
This is truth.

845
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,400
But truth and hope, they don't,
they don't match so good because

846
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,760
that's like so much of my adult
life, right?

847
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,080
Like the truth and the reality
of something in relationships

848
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,520
that they're not always the
same, which is why I actually

849
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,480
don't like hope too much.
I think hope is shit.

850
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,160
You know I.
Have a friend, Michael Scott

851
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:52,640
Moore, who was abducted by
Somali pirates and wrote a book

852
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,080
about it.
A very good book and kind of

853
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,280
famous.
Yeah, and then he was also.

854
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:58,520
I just saw a documentary about
it too.

855
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,800
But I, he came to the Miami Fair
program and just spoke and we

856
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,520
were sitting in my room drinking
and I was like, like, how did

857
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:10,120
you, how did you survive it?
And he said, I gave up hope.

858
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:18,000
And I was like, it's like, if
you if you wake up every morning

859
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,440
thinking you're about to be
saved, every day is going to be

860
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,280
the worst day of your life.
And that, that like him saying

861
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,200
that has really resonated with
me over all of these years.

862
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,920
You know, just to like as a as a
notion of character and a notion

863
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,600
of, you know, what I sort of
knew intuitively about how

864
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,640
people are.
It's like, hope might be that

865
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,400
thing with feathers, but it's
also the thing that, you know,

866
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,680
that can lead to delusion, you
know.

867
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:46,840
Oh, I hope I'm the queen of the
planet.

868
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,960
I hope that's true.
Yeah, I ain't talking about.

869
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,320
Joan of Arc with my like my woo.
Woo thing like, you know.

870
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,800
I'm like way out there, but I'm
strangely grounded and like I

871
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,920
don't like bullshit and I
absolutely hate liars.

872
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,400
Like those are like my, I did a
ChatGPT and I asked it to give

873
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,880
me a bio and it was hysterical
because another guest had done

874
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:05,960
that.
And I was like, oh, you know, it

875
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,800
was the warning label, which I'm
about to ask you.

876
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,560
It was like in my ChatGPT, she's
like hates liars.

877
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:11,760
If you're full of bullshit,
leave.

878
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,800
I was like, I don't sound soft
and fuzzy at all and I am

879
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,240
slightly woo woo, but I just, I
don't, I think because I lived

880
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:19,960
in hope.
I hoped my dad would love me

881
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,480
more.
I hoped he would pay attention

882
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,440
to his own family.
I hoped that his love would stop

883
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,560
being so painful or cruel.
And that got me nowhere.

884
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,280
So I'm I'm not about hope.
I had this strange practicality

885
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,960
to it.
Like the only thing that's going

886
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,360
to change is you and your
outlook and that you can control

887
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,200
hope you can.
So, all right, so Todd, thank

888
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,240
you for talking to me.
There's 7,000,000 questions.

889
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:43,680
I have more, but now that I know
your door's open, I'll just

890
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,560
knock.
But if you came with a warning

891
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,160
label now in your mid 50s,
awesome.

892
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,600
Welcome to the what would it be?
Gosh, my own warning.

893
00:45:53,600 --> 00:46:07,280
Label forgives but doesn't
forget I'm the same or acts on

894
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,920
retribution.
Say that again.

895
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,640
You laughed out of it.
Acts on retribution.

896
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,760
I don't, I don't know.
I mean, I, I think I know that

897
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,120
I'm not everybody's cup of tea.
What?

898
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,160
You're wrong.
I know that I know that I have.

899
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:26,880
A tendency sometimes to say
exactly what I think and that

900
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,760
that can be bracing to some
people and it can be offensive

901
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,240
to some people.
All right, Well, thanks everyone

902
00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:33,680
for.
Listening to the Holly Hughes

903
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,200
podcast, I hope you go write
something today or make yourself

904
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:37,520
a next.