Makeup Over 40: Why Your Old Routine Stops Working (And the Simple Fixes That Actually Help)

0:09 Welcome to the Holly Hughes podcast Today I am very insanely nervous. Excited. Actually did a clip before we started recording with the one and only pro makeup artist and mature makeup maven Michelle Spieler. Thank you so much for saying yes and agreeing to be on my podcast. I have actually followed you for years and I just love everything that you represent. And then when I found out that you and I were probably in LA at the same time, I was like, we probably know a few people in common. So first of all, you work in the industry in film and TV as well. And you have a very successful like YouTube channel and subscription. People like can learn so much from you. But lately, what I love that you've been highlighting is lashes.

1:00 You do, I do. I do. Lashes are the sole reason I got into television. If I wasn't the best at lashes, I would not have fallen into television. We have to start with this whole thing. So I have this crazy myth that's in my head for me with lashes is that I always thought that if you wore false eyelashes, your real ones fall out. Nope. How does the glue not pull them out? Well, first of all, you're setting the lash just slightly above your natural lashes. So there's a little Ridge of skin that you're sticking it to. And we have a lash cycle. So if a lash comes out when you pull the fake lash off, that's probably a lash that was going to fall out anyway. The glue is very rubbery.

1:49 And so it's not a harsh glue that's going to pull off your healthy lashes. And I know this to be true because my mom wore lashes every day of her life from the mid 60s until she got cancer and she was in bed for a year. She went through chemo. She she kept her lashes, but on when my mom went into Hospice, I was looking down at her and she had long, thick, beautiful lashes. And so I knew that the fake lashes had not hurt her own lashes. That's amazing. I think my mom had those too. And I know you're a very amazing. You're a good teacher. I watch you show the kind of tweezer you need. You do all of that and I don't have the steady hand.

2:31 I like the little ones on the end sometime, but I don't. They intimidate me. That and when the craze went crazy and everyone had like spiders on their faces, that was like too much for me. Too much. I just posted a last tutorial yesterday and I called it the only last tutorial you'll ever need. I saved it. OK so I know you can do it because it's only 1/2 lash and so it just lifts the eye without feeling cumbersome or overwhelming. I will definitely go back to that. I will get a new duo glue. How long do you keep a glue? Or does it should it run out? Yeah, I mean, sometimes it even starts to get dry as it gets to the bottom and you just toss it and there's nothing like a fresh glue.

3:16 I love a fresh glue. So I want to know, like, how did you start on your journey? How did you become the makeup artist you are? What was the first step? The first step is I had a glamorous mom who wore makeup every day of her life and wore lashes every day of her life, and she looked like Barbara Eden. I dream of Jeannie. And so that was just my muse, right? And so I got into makeup at a very young age. I have the original Oil of Olay. I keep it because this was the start of my skin care journey at 16 years old. Every night of my life, I washed my face and I did Oil of Olay. And then cut to I went to college. I got a Bachelor of Fine Arts and Illustration. My dream was to be an illustrator. I did go to an illustration studio for three years and I'd worked in animation and I painted for Warner Brothers and Disney and Hanna Barbera.

4:10 And one day scooby-doo came back for a revision and I had a meltdown. And I went to the street on a payphone to call my husband. And I'm hyperventilating and he's like quit. And I'm like, I can't quit. This is my career. And he's like, you're so unhappy. It was hurting the marriage. And he's like just quit. So I did and he's like, just go get a part time job. So I went back to Mack. I worked for Mack right out of college. I went back to Mack. I went to Robertson where all of the celebrity makeup artist shopped, all of the celebrities shopped at Mack on Robertson because it was the pro store. And going there for one year changed my life. Wow, I love that. Why Mac?

4:51 Because Mac was the thing back in the day. Did you go there? Because it was like the brand to be around and with then. When I first got out of college, I couldn't find a job as an illustrator, so I went to Nordstrom because my best friend had worked there and she got free stuff and I'm like, I want free stuff. So I went into makeup. I worked for Estee Lauder for a year, but quite honestly it was middle-aged white women. And I'm like boring. And this new up and coming brand in 1992 was like starting to get like a weight around the counter and everyone wore black and they were funky. And I'm like, that's my brand. So I went to work for Mac in 93 and I worked for them until 96. Then I quit for three years to be an illustrator. And then I went right back to Mac, but I went to the pro store.

5:37 Are you born and raised in California then or? Born and raised in Los Angeles. Yep, my parents too. We all went to the same high school, Long Beach, CA, the LBC, LBC baby Snoo. Okay I didn't know that part about you cuz I know you're on the East Coast now. So my journey was I went to LA on vacation when I graduated college. I got my first credit card. And back in the day, you actually had to earn them, right? And I got a round trip ticket to anywhere in the contiguous United States. And the furthest spot from I went to school in DC was LA that I had a friend. It's like, hey, can I come visit? And they're like, sure. So I visited and I really liked it.

6:18 Then I went back and I really liked it. And then I left my roommate four months of rent, and I just moved and crashed on my friend's floor. I called this place Shannon Claire Films. They're like, can you start Monday? And I just said, yes, yeah, I had done a little bit of production in in DCI, went to school for journalism, but I couldn't get hired as a journalist after. So then I worked for a small production company and literally the guy told me he hired me because I wouldn't be a distraction in the office. It's so mean. But I started learning makeup because I just loved it. But I think you have to have a very specific kind of personality. You have to be really warm and welcoming. You must be able to handle a lot in the makeup trailer. Like I think many people don't know that part and your hours are longer.

7:06 It's crazy hours. And I always say to people like, you should really get a psychology degree before becoming a makeup artist. In hindsight, I might have gone that route. You have to match the hat. So whatever your mood, your actors in, that's the mood you're going to be in. You can't be the Michelle show. Like nobody wants that in the makeup trailer. So you become a little bit more humble. There's no ego in it. And so we see this rise of the influencer makeup artist community on social media and they're great at their own makeup. Maybe they could even do great makeup on a friend who looks like them. But if you don't know how to do all ages, all ethnicities and, like, lose your ego and it's not about you because being a makeup artist is about it's about serving. And so I think that's why it just was such a good fit for me because I love people and I care about people. And there's nothing better than I would work at ESPN and I would do a man's makeup and he would get out of the chair and he's like, I feel so good.

8:11 And I'm like, hell, yeah, you do. Because I'm a freaking psychologist. You know, my friend Preston used to call me his hairpist because I did his hair and makeup. I was his hairpist. You really have to build people up in the chair. It's so much more than aesthetics. So like, I worked at Spelling for a while and there was some of the actors who were a little more famous than others that could pull in of course, there and hair and makeup people. One of my favorite stories about that was Joan Collins. I was on the show with her very briefly. So she ordered full her whole thing every week. I'm like, has she even used it? This is epic. They're like, it's her. She gets whatever she wants. So like every single product that remotely could come near her, We ordered every week and her own wig people.

8:58 And like it was astounding and amazing. And I really actually miss being on the inside of all the trends that LA had, right? Like even the subtle ones that would come through. But that was a different time. That was a different time. That was before social media. There's 500 trends going at all time. They last a week and then it's the next trend. So it's not the same as back in the 90s or 2000s when we were special in Los Angeles or New York like we were special because this is where trends started before it went out to the whole country. And it's just a different time now. Do you miss any of the trends from back in the day? Yeah, absolutely.

9:39 Which one? Which one I want to know? I missed the 90s makeup. I mean, that's when I worked for Mac. It was the height of matte makeup and neutrals and Browns and you know, we did big lashes and I don't miss thin eyebrows that I. Never did it. I never did it. The biggest mistake of my life, that's what you have beautiful eyebrows. Because Anastasia wouldn't let me, she yelled at me. Good. I'm glad she got a hold of you. Yeah, I do. I miss that. I miss some fashion trends. Like I remember in the early 2000s, we had low waisted jeans and we'd wear a big, like, crystallized belt buckle with it. Like I thought that was so hip and cool. I thought I was so cool.

10:23 I miss those shirts we had that were like cottony, but they had the jewel right here. Do you remember that thing? And because they were so flattering and they were easy to be at work and they're not. And it was like so comfortable. I was like, there's no, I remember I was like, there's no way in wearing that. And then I put it on. I was like, no, it looks good on everybody. They need to bring that one back. The low rise jeans. I don't know my my butt is too big for that. I don't know. I can't do that anymore of it. You know, back in the early 2000s, I still could rock it. I love that. OK, so tell me about your journey with the lashes because I like this story. I like how one person believed in you and needed you and requested you and that was like your step into it. So tell me about. That yeah. So I put my first pair of lashes on. I was going to, I can't remember the club in LA, but it was the Prince owned it.

11:10 I can't remember the name of it, but anyway, I went, I wore lashes for the first time in 1989 and by 1992 I was working for Estee Lauder and my boss said, oh, by the way, you're doing lashes today. Everyone gets free lashes. And I'd never done lashes on anyone but myself. And I remember like I was shaking and they probably looked terrible. But that's kind of how I started learning lashes. And then you get to Mac and you have to know lashes because everyone wore lashes in the 90s. So it was cut to 1999 and I'm working at the pro store and this beautiful Playboy Playmate walks in. Lisa Durgan. She was Playmate of the year 1997, gorgeous blonde, green eyes.

11:50 And she walked in and she wanted to make up appointment with Chris. But Chris is he's like this big flirt. He's so cute. And he was off that day. So they're like, oh, give her to Michelle. Michelle loves doing lashes. And she was going on a date with Rod Stewart and then they were going to the Playboy Mansion for a big party. And she and I just hit it off. We're both Leos. We're just, we were so fun together. And she's like, I'm going to request you again. And I went home that night from work and I told my husband, this girl's going to change my life. I didn't know how or why, but I just knew it. I just felt it in my gut. And I became her makeup artist for five years. And then when she got her first hosting gig on NBC, Race to the Altar, she brought me along and I did her hair and makeup for that whole season. And then I met producers like yourself, and they're like, we like you.

12:45 And so they brought me along. And I ended up on Extreme Makeover Home Edition for four. It had to be a grind that show that shows hours are in. Like I knew, I think I knew someone who rotated through and they're like, we couldn't, they couldn't keep up. Yeah, One time we did a house and then we did a wedding after the house was built and it was in the middle of the night and the poor bride was like sleeping, you know, at our own wedding at 4:00 in the morning that I worked a 24 hour shift. And when you go into overtime and production, you make time and a half and then after I think 12 hours, you or. 14. Yeah, you you start making double time. I made so much money in a 24 hour shift. We shot 24 hours around the clock. And I made so much money I bought my husband's sails for his sailboat in one shift.

13:33 OK, I am so curious about your husband. First of all, it sounds like you married really young. Yeah, I was 27. I mean, it didn't seem young at the time, but it is. It's yeah, I was 27, he was 29. We just celebrated 30 years on April Fool's Day. Oh, congratulations. So what how did you guys meet? Is he in the business too? Is he not in the business? No, when we met he was doing documentaries, but he never got into production in the entertainment realm. But I dated his roommate and it didn't work out. That's basically how we met. Did you like have a cooling off period before you just started dating or? Yeah, for sure. He knew this guy was going to break my heart too, because this guy was a serial like, you know, manipulator. But yeah, we hung out just as friends for a long time. We were at a church together and we had a big group of college and career kids who we'd all hang out in our 20s. And we just hung out as friends.

14:29 And it developed into. More when you're teaching right, you have this thing where I want you to feel joyful do about who you are and what you are. You are really transparent about your life, which I find amazing because I am super, 100% me. Like this is all me. But there's like that introvert that comes out when the camera goes off and I'm just so I get really quiet and Moody is like. Really. I can get that laid too. I absolutely can. OK, so long term marriage and you work crazy hours. How did you negotiate that? Like I just feel like a lot of people when you're working. So if you've never been in film production, the average day is 12 to 14 hours, plus you have the hour commute, right? So you're not home a lot.

15:18 And there was no texting then there was beepers, so communication was different. So how did you guys navigate that? We're just both really independent and I think what was great is because he did documentaries early, he did understand the production schedule. He was just always super supportive of anything I do. Like if I say, hey honey, we're having corn flakes for dinner, he'll be like, oh, awesome. I love corns. Like he just always, whatever I do, he's like, let's do it. Like it was my idea to move to Nashville and like, let's move to Nashville. He's like, OK. Wasn't your idea? Wait, so you went LA, North Carolina? What part of the state were you in? We were north of Charlotte in a historic town called Salisbury, only because my dad worked for Food Lion and that's where the headquarters was. OK, so I'm just outside of Charlotte myself. So like, what made you all come here? Like I want to know what your conversation was. That's so cool.

16:15 We had been talking about leaving LA for a long time and just because of the taxes and all the unions and pensions, more like this is not sustainable and the taxpayers are going to end up paying it. Just too many reasons to list. And I was working on new Girls season 1. You know, it was my dream job. And he's like, hey, my company has a job opening in Charlotte. You know, we can go be near your parents. And I'm like, I'm on my dream job. And throughout that day we were at a park in like Hollywood, downtown LA. And I'm looking around and there's hypodermic needles and used condoms and I'm working a 16 hour day and I have a four year old daughter. And I'm like, this is a hit show. Like my ego loved being on that show, but my heart was about my child.

17:04 And I said, let's get out of here. And within a week, I was giving notice and we were on the way to North Carolina for a whole new life. You're so like us. So I I wasn't on a hit show, but my daughter was about 1 1/2 two and we were living in Playa Vista. Do you remember, like when? Yeah. So we were one of the first people to move into that development while people were like, they're like, there's methane. They're like there's methane everywhere. But they kept protesting. But it was affordable housing in California, which is ironic if you think about the prices. But regardless. So I have no family out there. He has no family out there. I had this baby. I had gone from producing and being in charge of like 250 people to like, I wanted to be home.

17:47 Yep. Right And I was like, I don't have a nanny money and I don't want a nanny. She can't talk. Like who do I trust? I trust no one 'cause I was in the business too long, right? So we sat down at the kitchen table and we asked each other like, do you want a life or we have to work hard to get by or one we can enjoy. And everyone said we were crazy, but people tell me that all the time. And we're like, well, let's try one we can enjoy. And he does commercial real estate and someone gave him an offer here in Charlotte. So we just picked up and moved. But this is the really crazy part. We moved. So obviously we're independent contractors, everybody. So we paid for the move. Moving across the country ain't cheap.

18:27 And we found a rental place and it was like so cheap compared to LA. So we're like, this is good. And he went in for his first day of work and the man who had hired him retired. And they're like, hey, thanks for coming. But he left. There's no job. We had something similar. Yeah, we had the rug pulled out under us. But you know what? It just makes you hustle. Yeah, he's like, what do we do? I'm like lemonade, baby lemonade. So I think that's fascinating. Like those are kind of like similar, but to anyone who wants to change would still wants to pursue their creativity or their craft or their art, go for it. Because the cost of living out there is insane. I mean our property taxes.

19:09 Nuts. Yeah. So that kind of like leads me into, so now there's this Internet, there's like YouTube. And so I'm assuming you started on YouTube, right? It was, did you start when you move? No, like how did all of your influenciness start? What happened was I was in my late 40s and I was tired all the time and out of shape. And I saw like an autumn Calabrese beach body infomercial. And so I signed up for her program. And within like a short period of time, it changed my body. And I felt great. And I was getting, you know, accolades from people. And so I'm like, I'm going to become a beach body coach and I'm going to change women's lives.

19:52 And so, you know, just learning how to do that whole network marketing kind of set me up for success for TikTok. But cut to 2020 and you know, I was at ESPN when we got the notice to go home immediately because the NBA closed down. And if the NBA closed down, the whole world was closing down. So I got sent home somewhere mid March because of COVID. It was 2020 and what are you going to do? You got to make money. So I started selling beauty counter because I was clean beauty back then. I was clean beauty. I only did clean beauty and I started selling beauty counter because they said, hey, we know everyone's screwed. And so it's there's no fee to join. You can be a beauty counter Rep, there's no fee. And so I started selling beauty counter and it did help. And I was, you know, mostly on Facebook and Instagram. And then something happened and Facebook said, oh, you're locked out for a month.

20:50 I did something I don't remember naughty. Girl. I'm like screwed. You're like the nicest person. Look at you do. Ron on Facebook. Well, I'll tell you what happened. I I joined a group of people who was trying to expose child porn on Facebook and we had photos of it and we were exposing this group and then we were all penalized for exposing this group. Yeah. So I'm like, screw you. I'm going to TikTok. My, my daughter and I were on TikTok everyday laughing our butts off. It was so funny. And I'm like, I'm just going to start TikTok and I did in 2020. I love how you just go for it. Yeah, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna do it.

21:30 I'm just gonna do it. Kevin, we just go for it and we worry about the repercussions later. I'm gonna have to figure out which mine is. What is that other one? It's like the one thing I'm not into that everyone, if you're a projector or a manifester, like do you know that stuff about you? Do you know? I don't manifest because I think that for me that takes credit away from God and He's my agent and He gives me all the opportunities. So I don't get into the whole projecting, manifesting. So I don't know which I would be. I really don't know which I would be. But Enneagram I got into, I have no idea why. I just thought it was fascinating. I don't know how much I really believe in it, but I'm definitely an Enneagram 7. And my husband's definitely a #2 he's the helper, he's the Boy Scout.

22:12 Like he wants to help too much. And then my daughter, I thought she was a nanny and Graham 7, but she's an 8. She's a challenger and if you challenge her, she's just relentless. She's like a Pitbull and she's going to grab on and she's not going to let and so I just find it all very fascinating. I like that. OK, so I found you on TikTok. TikTok was my escape for me, I didn't join at all during COVID and the lockdown. It was really a place for me not being in my reality, right? So like for me, I was like, oh, let me just go find people who make me feel better kind of thing. And so even back then you are like mature women, right? You are about a real face and you even shared some of like your own plastic surgery journey, which I love.

23:00 Again, like I find that kind of brave and raw. You and I were talking really briefly before I hit record about invisibility, right? Like for me, when you become a mother, when I was a stay at home mom, you're invisible in some way because everything you were before changes. And I'm sure it is for every woman. But like, for me, it was like a really hard kokunk bed shift or like interesting shift. And then you become someone's mom. And then even though you're working, when you're walking through places, when you're walking through the world, I started realizing I was always looking down, that I wasn't even making eye contact anymore. And then like I fixed that. I was like, that's so not you. So like, who are you now? Who am I now?

23:41 And then looking up and then realizing, oh, like, I guess in Lai was used to not really being looked at because like the LA standard is not like, you know, whatever. But I I never felt like ugly or whatever. But invisible has nothing to do with beauty. It really doesn't. It's this fascinating age thing. And although I can see the beauty in others, I honestly have my own dysmorphic glitch with that. So I love how you are proponent of like women embodying themselves. How are you so confident? I try to expense ageism because it really is a problem, especially in social media. I've always been confident to the point where it sometimes makes people uncomfortable.

24:26 That's why I just go for things because I just know it's always going to work out and if something doesn't work out, then I'm like, let's move on to the next thing. My confidence comes from God. He has always given me the, when you know who you are in a higher power, how do you not have confidence? Because my confidence is in him, not in me. And so that's where my confidence comes from. Do I get insecure? Absolutely. Like anybody, you know, I might even look in the mirror and be like, oh, maybe, you know. And then I'm like, stop it, Michelle, stop. We're not doing any more surgery. We're done. But I only know how to be open and honest and raw. And I find that to be quite honest, Holly, I find that women say they want honest and raw and they want authentic. Guess what?

25:12 They don't. And so I'm learning that this year, 2025, I'm learning. Oh, I'm being too honest. Oh, they don't like that. OK, We can scale it back and we'll be pretty happy, Michelle. Because that's what you want, OK. I don't see that last thing. I don't know. That's like, that's a fine line. I want to know because these are the two questions I always have besides eyelashes about makeup, right? Is this is like 7 years ago. I have to wear glasses all the time. I can't do contacts because I can't take them out. Number one and #2 mine are bifocals. I'm so sexy. So there's no such thing as a bifocal really. Contact that doesn't make you crazy or dizzy or whatever.

25:54 All the things to me. So my thing is like, I love makeup Now. The good thing about my glasses is they magnify so it looks like I still have a lid when I take my glasses off. It's way more hooded. And so for me, I want to do the upper blef so much right? And I'm just waiting like another year or two because I want to go back to Korea more. So that's like I'm like plastic surgery or travel. I'm like travel right now it's travel. But when you do make up and then you put your glasses on, it looks completely different. So I'm always like, what is a way? I just nice, sexy. I think you look sexy, I really do. The minute I you popped on screen I'm like hot librarian. Like I love glasses on a woman.

26:36 So but like doesn't it change like where your blush goes a little bit or not? Or am I overthinking? I think you're overthinking. Yeah, your blush placement right now looks like it's right here, and it looks perfect. I went a little higher. I'm covering my headphones and my hair, but I go a little higher because you're like your last one because so you've been talking about like powder over powder, right? Powder, yeah. Powder was powder. I actually really like the look of oh the other really big tip. I know everyone you should just go listen because I know too many and I have like all these cards of all the tips I wanted to highlight but just follow her. The thing I was doing really wrong is I always thought I had a lot of blush on or what I thought was right and then I would go outside and I looked pale AF and you were like you don't you have to let your face calm down after you do that? We bring blood to the surface when we tap our face with a brush.

27:29 Like watch this. I'm gonna, I'm tapping my face right. So now that's a little bit brighter in this side because I just brought blush to the surface. You have to wait a couple minutes for the blush or for the blood to go away from the surface and then that's what you're left with. And then I. Have never heard that before and I was like that is my problem that is so good and I also find that pink or red turns pink on me. You mean lip? Lip Yeah, yeah. What's that? It just colors optimize and some people if they run warm you can turn things certain colors. OK, so I'll get my other one contour and blush.

28:12 Like really? What's the difference? Is it when you put it on or how you put it on? And I really can't tell the difference between a cool tone and a warm tone. Like I always thought I was cool and then people told her I'm neutral and I realized as I'm aging I'm probably more warm. You look warm to me and warm. People do sometimes turn Reds pink. Have you ever tried a red that's like world orangey red? Yeah, but it looks like my grandmother. Got it. OK. Fair enough. Yeah. Like especially there's this Mac one that I thought everyone's like, you should try that orange red. And I put it on and I couldn't get past grandma. Ish for me. Got it. Yeah. So no blue. You might be better with just a really pretty sheer red gloss or sheer A sheer red balm. But again, it's never going to look like that classic red mouth.

29:03 It's never going to look like this because it's sheer. But that's OK, Not everyone has to wear a red mouth. Yeah, I think the other thing is, like, for me, lipstick doesn't last. And my mother growing up was a lipstick woman, lipstick and lashes. That was her thing. My mom, she's always like you're all done up but you have nothing on your lips. And I'm I'm like, it just doesn't last. Every brand is whatever, probably talk too much, who knows whatever. But and if I powder it then I have all the lines cuz right. So I was just like, I'm just the nudie girl with that, I think. What's wrong with that? It's fine. Right, it's a good. Is that a classic thing? I love a nude lip all. Right. So you were the other day, you had the ABH one, the classic one out.

29:47 Is that still out or is that something you had forever? The brand new liner right on Anastasia Beverly Hills. Yeah, it's called Stormy. And so immediately I think of Kylie and her daughter Stormy, and there's a funny sound that my daughter and I do all the time. And it's like Stormy, but just like lobby baby. And so I'm like, well, of course I have to do that audio to the new Stormy pencil. And then mommy is Max Stone, right, Because everyone knows Max Stone. It's a cool brown. And so that's what Stormy is by Anastasia. I love Mac. You know, they really set me up for success. I learned everything I needed to know about makeup with Mac.

30:28 But Mac has changed over the years. They've never acknowledged me. They've never given me credit. I send them tons of women for years. I've sent them tons of women. My agency has reached out to them twice and said, you know, can Michelle get on the PR list or do you ever want to do a brand collab with her? And crickets. They want nothing to do with me because they are ageist. That bothers me about Mac me. Too. I love that. So is Anastasia working with you? That would make sense. Yeah. So like I said, I met her as a Pennsylvania and she swears she never lived in the Valley. But I have a very distinct memory of I was working so much and I couldn't come in during like regular time. And one time I went to her house when her daughter was young and she did my brows there.

31:17 She was so kind to me. And then when she did open her studio and it expanded and her makeup line first launched, she sold it for a while. She like got on cruise ships. I was like listening. She would always tell me these amazing stories of how her brand grew. But the other amazing thing that she was as a business person, she was always 10 steps ahead. She was like, this is who I am. And so you know how like her chair is in the window, right? Her chair was in the window. And all the celebrities except for Oprah, she closed the store for her. But like, everyone would be sitting there and she's always 45 minutes late. But you had to show up in time just in case she was on time. But she would always let her friends sneak in kind of thing, right?

31:59 Which of course she would, but they were women. They were normal, regular women of older, like middle age and older who she was taking care of. And I loved that about her. She's the real deal. She really is. So OK, So I want OK, so you did the upper bluff. It was like a year and a half ago, a year or. 2 1/2 years ago, that was one. It was February 2nd, 2023. What was the final like decision for you to actually do that? So again, I jump without thinking and I had made a lot of money. 2022 is an explosive year for me. I made a lot of money and I'm like, I just, I'm going to go for it.

32:45 I really wanted surgery in December or January, but come to find out people booked that six months in advance and my doctor was like, I have an opening on February 2nd and I'm like, all right, let's do it. In hindsight, I think I would have done it in June. June is a very quiet time of the year on social media. So I would advise people if you're on social media and do surgery either end of December, early January or June. The upper bluff. I didn't even go in for an upper bluff. He said you need an upper bluff because you're getting hooded. And I'm like, oh, I acknowledge that. Sure, why not? We're going under the knife anyway. We might as well do the upper bluff. He didn't touch the under eye. I didn't need anything. The upper bluff is 0 pain.

33:26 It's the fastest healing. The most painful part of the upper bluff was getting the stitches out because it stings a little bit. You don't, they don't numb you and they just pull the stitches out after about a week. And I'm like, you know, that was the most painful part. I love that. And you healed really fast and you talked about like the neck, so you would totally do it again. Would you wait longer? Like actually, I wish I could have done it sooner. I find that women who do it in their late 40s, they're surgery lasts longer because what happens is once you're in your 50s and 60s, your skin is getting thinner and thinner skin just keeps stretching. It's like elastic that's losing its elasticity and you can only stretch it so far before it's like, but the younger you are and the more elastin you have, you your results last longer. People think like facelifts last 10 years. They really don't.

34:25 And then I went and I lost 10 pounds this past year and he told me when he was walking me out to my car the day after my surgery, he said never lose more than 5 lbs. And I thought what a weird thing to tell me the day after my surgery. Well I get it because I've lost £10 this year and I have a lot of loose skin, but it's fine, I feel great. I like I'm trying. I'm leaning for anyone not like watching video. I'm like leaning in trying to like see it, but I don't see that. You don't see it here, but in some of my Tik Toks, if I'm like this and I'm looking in a mirror, you can kind of see some draping happening and I'm like whatever. I have that little creepy thing right here, right? Oh yeah, that doesn't make me happy. So how do you help women like then accept our our maturing and us not be invisible because that is your sweet. Spot yeah, I really, I almost like I didn't cry dropping my kid off for college, but I almost cry over my clients. Like I love mature women so much and the fact that we're all kind of invisible like it, it kind of breaks my heart because the second part of our life is like when we really blossom, like we know who we are and we have confidence and we have all this wisdom and we just want to impart that on the younger generation and we have so much to offer and it breaks my heart that we walk into a store and we're ignored. So This is why I'm like, if we

35:55 could dress up a little bit, you know, wear some fun jewelry, do your eye makeup. If you don't do lashes that's fine, but do some heavy mascara and put a fun pipe of color on and do your hair because the world does receive pretty rather than plain Jane. And I'm plain Jane all the time. I dress like a 14 year old boy most days and I don't wear makeup a lot of days. And you are treated differently. Yeah, so I mean, also having awesome menopause, like I have suddenly adult acne and I can't get rid of it. And like, I don't know how much to cover. Like I am all Korean, like skin care girl.

36:36 It's not that I'm not taking care of it. It's like it's hormonal. No, I don't. There's nothing I don't know. I have another doctor's appointment. I'm over it. Like I I've messed with what hormones I am taking what, like how much and all of that. And still, it's relentless. Life is not fair to women, but we are stronger mentally. We're stronger than men. We're more resilient. We are freaking awesome. Like, I love women, but we've had to overcome it. Life is just not fair to women. Look at women all over the world. Look at young girls all over the world.

37:17 Life is not fair to women. I know like you did glam makeup like you'll do day and night. So I have a horrible habit I think I own. I counted before we I picked up the call like 16 neutral palettes. I can my daughter who's 17 is like, stop, you can't buy another one. I'm like, but now it's in a crayon. Of course, of course I need this color in a crayon. So is there like something you could teach us as listeners, like how not to do that? Or when do you get rid of a palette? Right? Because like during Christmas and stuff or the sales, everything that's so pretty and the new packaging, like what do we really need? Because I'm not a makeup artist. You have a room of beauty there.

37:59 I don't. I have a drawer. It's a pretty big drawer. Maybe it's 2. It's totally 2 and the top of a desk. But like, I don't really need another 5 Browns that are the same brown. They're just packaged. I don't know how to stop. How do I stop? Yeah, that's a really tough question, 'cause I mean, look at this whole table of PR that I need to film and then I've got like, you know, all these it's. But I'll tell you, nothing feels better than purging. I love to purge my closet and take it to Goodwill. I love to purge makeup. I feel like if you have a eyeshadow palette that you haven't touched in a year, throw it away. It just feels good to have less clutter.

38:40 But how you can stop is if you stick with the classics, like I'm going to grab something because it's just right here. If I only had one palette in the whole world, it would be makeup by Mario. He does the warm palette, which I have. But now that I'm doing Gray blending, I'm now doing the the neutral palette. Honestly, this is all you need. Then if you wanted a little sparkle or a little pop of color, well then you could buy a single shadow or you could buy like a glitter pen pencil by 1/2 Magic. But I really think that if you stick to classics, you're going to stop buying all the things. Look, I have like 500 neutral lip pencils.

39:20 Like how many do I really need? I don't I really could get away with just two or three. But we just since 2020, we've just developed this habit of like consumerism and TikTok shot makes everything instant. Buy it now. And I really don't know how to calm that shopping noise in people's heads. I think you have to just go into each day with intention and you're going to say, hey, I trust Michelle. I like her. She's using this new thing. So I know it's good, but do I need it? Because that's something I used to say a lot in my videos. I'm like, do you need it? You know, like I'd be selling something and I'm like, put it on your wish list. Do you need it if you don't put it on your wish list? But sometimes I don't have time in a one minute video to add that in.

40:10 But I really do believe that, like if you don't need it, if it's just a want, sit on it a few days. Because then in a few days you might be like, oh, I don't even need that. Why did I think I needed that? The other thing you say that I really appreciate as a fan, you're like, it might not work for you. Yeah. You say that often and it's so refreshing, like it really is because I, I've tried a few things and they I was like, oh, that didn't work on my skin. Like it really creped. I didn't expect that right? And you're like, it might not. And I was like, and now I have no guilt. Look, I'm, I love doing makeup, so. But I'm not at your level. But like, I have so much fun. So it's not like I'm afraid to try something. So like, I think some people might think, oh, if it doesn't look good, it I maybe I did it wrong, but I don't think that. I think sometimes it just doesn't blend. Like we all have those two face, like two sides of our face. You've been also talking a lot about our eyebrows, our sisters. I love that too because those laminated brows freak me out, just like the giant, like spider lashes. I was like, that's a lot of control on your face. Yeah.

41:11 Yeah, and we don't all have brows like you, Holly, so we can't laminate like you can. I don't even do anything to my brows I just brush them because she trained me. But good, that woman was like don't tell because I had over plucked in the middle. In the 90s, Yep. In the 90s we over plucked to over here. She literally slapped my hand. I love this woman. She slapped me. She goes just grow them in for three months and come back and I was like, oh, OK. Then she's like, you have the most perfect brows. And then they were even thicker. They were way thicker and because with age they get thinner as well. Also, before I got married, she grabbed my arm. She's like, what is the sleeve on your dress? And I was like, it's sleeveless. She's like, give me your arm and she waxed my arm. She's like no hair on your arm.

41:53 That day I was like, thanks, I know. Makes me think how hairy were they that she saw that? She just wanted you to be exquisite in person. You would have looked great in photo, but in person she wanted you to be exquisite. I love how you like, like, like, say that. She's a gross girl. I love Anastasia, she's I will be a fan for life. So was your friend Jasmine, the front, the other first C? She's the one who did my brows too thin that she yelled at. So Anastasia got too booked. I was like, I've been coming to you for 15 years, I can't come in. That's kind of crazy. And she's like, sorry. And I was like, I'll just go with Jasmine. Jasmine and I started Mac together in the 90s, so Jasmine was at my wedding. Jasmine and I went to church together in Los Angeles. Like Jasmine is just a dear friend. She's not still there, is she?

42:44 No, but she still does some training videos. But no, she married Richard and they bought a home in Costa Rica and they kind of go back and forth between LA and Costa Rica. I love her. She was super nice too and fast right, like you know, she was like on it. I remember. So when you go to get your eyes done, eyebrows done at Anastasia, you get like flipped back in a chair basically and you're not in a private room. You're like in a busy space and I they would try to feel the line that they would draw. Do you know what I mean? Like because the wax there, the wax there kind of thing. And like to keep it thicker and the stencils. I was not, I did not have a hand at the stencils that she used to give out all the time. But yeah, it definitely.

43:28 I had a woman like not even that long ago be like, are those Anastasia browsers? I was like, I can give her credit for sure about that, but I did feel self-conscious in the 90s when everyone got so thin and she's like, you are not allowed. I wish she had gotten a hold of me, I'll tell you that, because I went super Courtney Cox thin. But that was so cool then. So do you think there's a trend that women are holding on to? Like, I always think of like the blue eyeshadow thing when we were growing up with the women from the 70s who didn't let it go. So is there a trend for people our age that maybe from the 90s that it's time to say goodbye, that you still see? Yeah, there is. I would say with Gen.

44:08 X women, not all, but a lot of Gen. X women want to still wear full coverage liquid foundation. And I'm like, baby, that ship has sailed. We got to work on our skin and we got to lighten up our foundation. But if you do want to wear heavy foundation for special occasions because it is beautiful in photograph, not in person but in photograph, then I need you to put a ton of Vaseline all over your face first. I wanted to talk about this, So what is the difference between Vaseline and Aquaphor? OK so I did a deep dive on this. I started with Aquaphor. Aquaphor has so many ingredients in it and they have lanolin in a lot of their products.

44:56 And my family has a lanolin allergy. I have a lanolin sensitivity. It can make me itchy. A lot of women can't wear lanolin, and lanolin also is comedogenic. I didn't know that. Vaseline is just 100% petrolatum, petroleum Jelly 100%, nothing added, non kinetogenic. So I, I think I did, I used trying to do Aquaphor I think at first before I knew that I was like, and I just got those, what are those called? Those lumps under your eyes from it. You get milia. I did. Women do. So see, that would be like those things like it doesn't work. I was like, I don't think I want to try that again.

45:37 Yep. But it doesn't mean I can't try it here. The Vaseline thing, you've been talking about that a lot too. I was like oh I want to know the difference between. The two I want a Vaseline on right now because I have, I did a full beat of drugstore and I did a heavier application of liquid foundation. And so I have a lot of Vaseline right through here because that's where all my texture is. How does it not smudge? It doesn't move because it's just an occlusive. It just sits right there and then anything you put on it sits right there. Just people are like, oh, it's greasy, it's not grease, It's a inclusive. It does not move. It is brilliant. All right, I got to try it and don't get the colored ones.

46:18 There's Vaselines with color, just the regular. Well, someone asked me can I use the one with cocoa butter in it? I'm like, we'll try it, but like I want just one ingredient and that's petrolatum. I love that. So would you ever mix like it for women who maybe have a full like a foundation and we're asking them to lighten up on that, Can you mix in maybe some moisturizer in to make it a little thinner or maybe sunblock? Can you mix your own kind of that way? Oh, for sure, for sure. But what's happening with our generation is, you know, a lot of our generation wasn't on TikTok in 20/20/2020 is when we all had this huge awakening of skin care. And I thought I knew skin care really well as a makeup artist. I did not know much I could put in a thimble how much I know about skin care. 2020 opened my eyes because now we had estheticians, dermatologists, skin gurus telling us what we needed to do and it complete.

47:17 I look younger now and not cuz of my facelift my skin texture. My skin texture looks younger now than in my 40s and it's because of skin care. And so I'm trying to educate Gen. X women like work on your skin. Someone the other day in my comments said how do I cover sunspots? I said I can show you, but four hours later you're going to see them again. They just peek right out through the makeup. What you need to do is fade your sunspots and that's what you need to do. And that takes a lot of freaking hard work and it takes high SPF every day. Or they're all going to come back and women just are not committed yet. So they want the coverage to hide all the sun damage? But then why do I look old?

48:02 You can't have it both ways. What do they say, you can't ride horses with one ass or something? Like that, I like that. I was, I was thinking that because like even like as we all get a little bit of hyperpigmentation. I went to Brazil and the last day I was in Brazil, I was on a yoga retreat and I was, I had a drink, I had a lime and the lime hit my lip. I got a brown spot of hyperpigmentation where the lime hit me like hours before I left. And that was there for three years. I called it Stashy. It would not go. I mean, my husband was like Stashy's back. I was like, it's like, because I would put like the fading cream on, but and then the SPF. But I think then I don't know, now you might know better. I don't think American SPF is as good as other places and I don't know why. There's more chemicals, but less efficiency, effectiveness, whatever the right yard is.

48:53 It's because our FDA hasn't updated our filters in decades. And so we don't have the same kind of filters that France, Korea, Australia. We don't have the same kind of filters because our FDA is archaic and they will not update and there's lobbyists trying so hard to update our FDA regulations on beauty and SPF and they, I don't know, I Holly, that's the age-old question like. I know I'm really, I'm hoping because I used to get one from France, Avani. I speak French very poorly. I might not say that, but now I'm just very much because I'm all about Korea. Like when I was there and you walk into the pharmacy, the amount of affordable, yeah, things that you can do for your eye.

49:40 Like everyone came back with all these things and I came back with the pharmacy. I can't wait. Like, so it's still pretty bright here. So I don't want to start with my fading, like for my spots, yet it's still too bright outside. I'm too by the window. I was like, I'll just wait another month before, but I can't, I can't wait to like experiment with that. So would you use the same thing on your declutage? Because I think women ignore this so much. And this is the part that gets me. Yeah, I call it cougar chest. I definitely have cougar chest. But I'll be honest, like I'll take my skin care down my neck and I might do a little right here, but I don't take care of my look at all this sun damage. I do not. See anything? Oh well, it's cuz I'm in front of a window, but I've got like massive like you and you know when you start getting a tan and then you get the white polka dots everywhere and I asked a dermatologist what are all these white marks? She's like, oh that's sun damage. You ruined your skin.

50:31 Thanks. That's because we baby oiled it back in the day. I just got a new tattoo. Well, I got a tattoo on my shoulder, right? And, and when she took a picture of it, I saw all these freckles I had no idea existed. I was like, Oh, my back is aging now. That's another thing, when I look in the mirror I can see a couple sunspots, but I don't see freckles when I look in the mirror. When I look at myself editing and on camera, it shows every freckle deep under your skin that the naked eye can't see. I freaking hate HD. I hate it. I hate it for actresses, I hate it for makeup artists, and I hate it for a 58 year old me because it shows things the naked eye cannot be. I kind of feel that way about my 10 times mirror, like because I can't put makeup on without it honestly. And I know you're a big proponent and I need it, but sometimes I am like 2 core.

51:23 Like the other part of my awesome genetics is I'm growing moles all over my face along with my acne. And I went and saw plastic surgeon actually grew a cyst in the corner of my mouth. I was like, what is with the lumps? And they're like genetics. Yeah, it's like. You can't. I can't attack all those. I was like, I'm becoming a witch. Like literally on the outside. The other thing that America really needs to come up with is a hand cream with SPF that isn't tacky, sticky, that's easy to put back on because our hands are the other thing that like age. Pretty quick. So if you put SPF on your hands and you're rubbing it right, well then you also have it on your fingertips. And then you go to rub your eye later and it's like, you know, and then you're tearing. And I freaking hate SPF but it's a necessary evil I wear every day no matter what.

52:13 OK, so you are like your following is huge and we want them to keep doing that, but so is your future. It's like, do you do like a three-year plan A5? Like I know you have this beautiful foundation in your faith and in God, in what will come. And I feel like you make decisions quickly. Is there a choice that you're making in the next year or you feel a change coming? I'm really curious about your evolution. Well, I will say that financially, this has been my worst year in a long time because of tariffs, and we're just seeing less. The beginning of the year was explosive with campaigns because everyone knew the tariffs were coming. And so the brands were just, I mean, I couldn't barely keep up with the campaigns. Now it's crickets.

52:56 So I think we're kind of waiting to see what's going to happen at the end of the year. They could throw a lot of campaigns at us. But I'll tell you. Yeah, I'll tell you what my plan is, you know, when I do long form, I can be a little bit more open and honest and speak my heart. But what I've learned from 2025 is mature women are already sad about aging and how can I make them feel good and how can I encourage them? And so going forward, and I think this is one of the reasons why I went from like 375 to over 400,000 in two weeks is because I'm now happy, Michelle, we're going to be happy.

53:37 We love aging. We're going to be so happy about aging. We've got this. That's what women want and I'll give it to them. And so I feel like because I've had this mind shift on, on what they really want, what not what they say they want with their mouth, but what the analytics show me, I'm just going to try to be their, you know, mature beauty cheerleader. I think that that works for me. I have one last mascara question like I've been this is the one I can't believe. Like I have my little post it. I can't believe I almost skipped it. OK so I'm a huge tubing girl. I love the tubing mascara and you've been also posting about that recently, but I am confused. I can't multi coat. It just gets so goopy, clumpy, it's. Not cleaving is not meant for building up. It's not a build up.

54:25 So but there are two sides to the wand right? Like I noticed so I've been using. I use thrive because it comes off so easy for me so I don't. I've tried a few others and they were just too goopy and wet. I don't know how to explain it but I'm like so curious. I was like I just the other day I realized I was like when I use a regular mascara. My mine are thicker though so I was like am I not applying it right? Is there a different trick? Do I like turn the brush? Do I put like one coat on this way and one coat with it? It's just the way it is. You're doing everything right, OK Tubing just coats your lashes. So it does give it a little bit of volume and length, but it's not a building. It's not a building mascara.

55:05 And you can't go in with multiple layers. It's one layer. What I really Have you seen me talk about dibs? I haven't seen that yet. OK, this is my favorite right now. OK, so Dibs is at Ulta and I'll tell you what I love is. Oh yeah, it's the two light. It's the two sided 1. This is brown tubing primer. What freaking I'm so jealous I didn't think of it. Brown tubing primer on this side and then this side is a regular mascara and this can do a lot of your building. Prettiest lashes ever. There, I'm going see I won't get another neutral palette. I'll get a different mascara though. Yeah. And then guess what I do on my lower lashes? I just do the brown tubing and that's it. Because that way it's never going to smear a transfer because it's tubing, and it's never going to look like spider legs because it's brown.

55:55 So my lower lashes just look soft and pretty. Freaking my favorite in the world. But I do love thrive. Thrive was my first tubing ascara and I I love thrive. I like. It because I could get it on sale like twice a year and then I just stock up kind of thing. I'm the coupon girl. Like if I can get it at like the give me the 350 off at Ulta on there on there love. Ulta points. Love Ulta points. I'm like a little worried. My daughter came home the other day. She's like, I'm a platinum member. I'm like what I know, and she works. It's her money, but until we want you to be buying that much, she's like my setting spray my this. I need my one size. I need this. Oh, the other product that I love that you talk about is for the hair. Is that bumble and bumble texture? The dry spun texturizing spray.

56:42 Yeah. And your daughter's probably buying nails and hair and Soul de Janeiro body, of course, and fragrance like, you know, we're getting. She's not just buying makeup. So she gets a pass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's all about perfume. My daughter is such the perfume girl. My girl, my daughter too. And look at all this back here. That's just a fraction of my collection. I love it. So OK, Michelle, I end every interview, I asking the same question. I mean, I could talk to you forever, but you know, you're busy. So if you came with a warning label, what would it be? Do not approach before noon until I've had two double espressos. Do not feed the bears. I love that I have a, it's a German word. It's called Morgan muffle.

57:27 Have you ever heard this word? It is a more it's a morning grouch and it basically I have a mug my husband got me and it has a grumpy cat with the word like just don't talk to me until I'm done with the coffees. That's just not too much to ask for. And my husband, he wakes up so happy and talk and I'm like. Wait, how are you so good in a trailer though? You must have to wake up so early. You do. And I used to tell God, like, is this a joke? Like, why did you put me at a 5:00 AM call career? You know, you just do it. You just rise to the occasion and you just do it. But I'm not a morning person. I love being up late at night and I like sleeping until nine. There, I said it. I like it.

58:07 I admire you more so I know people want to be pretty, but I like the real, so I appreciate you doing that. I'm not a morning person or night person. I'm a napper. Like I don't in the morning. I'm super hyper focused. I get a lot of work done. I probably get more work done in 2 1/2 three hours than a lot of people do in days. I just, I'm just a grinder that way. I'm like that. And then after that, no. And after 3:00, I'm not the best thinker and I want a nap. I really want a nap. When I worked at 7th Heaven, the our production office was on exposition in Santa Monica. And we, I was there when we were changing. It was just literally a warehouse. I walked into so many nasty spider webs when we first opened the office. But the women's bathroom was large and there was like a, an atrium to it. And we put a sofa in it.

58:55 And so if anyone had a day or a moment, they would go to the bathroom and all the women could decompress, even like the women in the trailers, like, you know, I was in the production office. So like anyone could kind of come in and hide when they needed to. I was a huge napper my whole life. When I got into television, I didn't realize that you can't nap on the job. So here I am in the production trailer with my production manager, my production coordinator, and there's a big couch. And they have on like the Florida Gators game because my line producer was a Florida Gators fan. And I'm like on the couch because, you know, I had a 5:00 AM call and I'm on the couch and I'm probably drooling and I had my walkie-talkie in my set bag and I'm totally out. And the executive producer comes in and yet they still hired me for Four Seasons.

59:42 They loved me, but I was a napper. But I'll tell you what, what changed? What HRTI went on an HRT patch like, I don't know, 5354? I've never, I really never nap anymore. It gives me energy. I'm on all the HRTI, had to have a hysterectomy and like no one told me anything after and I just like crashed for years and I finally found a doctor. Like I can go to the doctor and they're like, you just need to like exercise more, eat better. I'm like shut up. Like first of all, just stop. I do the stuff and I'm not a drinker. Like I just like my body. I can't eat bad food. My body just doesn't even like it. It's not that I finally found a doctor. Actually, I was. Mary Haver like on Tiktok when she's like, this is what you say to your doctor and I went to my doctor and I said that and I found a specialist and they did my blood work.

1:00:28 They're like, you have the hormones of a 90 year old. Literally, I was like horrified and I was like pearls, right? But it wasn't. So I was like, give it to me. So we did all and so that I guess the side effect is this horrible acne. So I'm like, I prefer to feel human and have thought and have energy and feel like I have muscle mass again. And then this is the but I would maybe I'll pray on that. Be like God, OK, we're good. I heard you. I feel, I believe that this can go away now and better things can come. But yeah. And you those never underestimate A pimple patch. They work so well my. Skin reacts to the adhesive. I'm allergic to adhesive so certain what I know. I have very sensitive body.

1:01:12 What about? The Mario Badescu blemish. The pink stuff. That can help. I I mean that before pimple patches. That was great. Yeah. Listen, Holly, some people just fall into those anomaly categories, right. And like up until HRTI was I was a napper my whole life and it was. I'm Irish, you know, we sleep. I don't know what to tell you. I'll have women say I've tried every eyeliner in the world and they all run on me. That's your cross to bear. Sorry, there's nothing else I can help you with. You know, like we all have our we all come with our cons, right And so. What's the What's the one job you would never take now? I really don't enjoy weddings, especially in this whole world of Pinterest and social media.

1:01:58 I'm glad I'm not in the wedding game anymore, but I used to enjoy it and it's good cash under the table a lot of the times. But yeah, weddings is something I'm asked a few times a year and I turn it down. OK, that's good. Good to know. Well, thank you so much for being part of my podcast and spending this time with me. So if people want to follow you, if they somehow don't follow you, where do you want them to go? Yeah, so on Instagram and on TikTok, I'm the Michelle Spieler on YouTube I'm mature makeup master class. So I always ask them in like, do you like deep dives? Do you want to have long form videos or short form? And you know, usually that will dictate where they they follow me.

1:02:40 Yeah, and I would also say since I do follow you, that what's really great about the short form is if you don't know what you don't know, if they follow you on either Instagram or TikTok, they can like, oh, and is a problem I've been having. I'm so curious to do more because you do amazing hair stuff. You do skin care, you do it all. And it always is empowering, even if you're not just your super happy person, you're just like, I like that just so you know, and you're beautiful and that's just inspiring to see and watch. And then once you find a clip you like, you can always do the deep dive. They're all there and very doable. You're a very good teacher. So thank you for that. I really appreciate that. Teaching's my favorite.

1:03:21 I love teaching even more than makeup, but I mean, thankfully they go hand in hand. OK, thanks. Thanks for listening to the Holly Hughes podcast. We'll see you next week.