Not by Accident: Samantha Dunn Speaks on Journalism, Writing, and Teaching the Next Generation of Creatives

0:05 Welcome to the Holly Hughes podcast Today. I'm very excited, exceedingly excited, which I've realized I say that every time, but really I've only reached out to people that I want to talk to. That's a really good thing about having your own podcast. You can like reach out to your dream people and have conversations. So I have the Samantha done today and I'm going to hold up all the books not by accident memoir, faith in Carlos Gomez, which is one of my favorite lines that she quotes about herself in this one. And then I I really wanted to be in this when you put this together, which is women on the edge. But I'm going to read a little bit about who your your fancy part is your fanciness ready.

0:47 Samantha Dunn Oh yeah. And failing Paris, which I don't own. I don't know why. Samantha Dunn is the senior editor of premium content at the Southern California News Group. She produces the companies bimonthly magazine Premium as well as virtual programs including Bookish with Author interviews which you should go watch because they're amazing. She clearly has written multiple books, Failing Paris, not by accident, reconstructing A careless life and faith in Carlos Gomez. She also teaches. And we can go on and on. I mean, I actually printed notes and it's half a page of her credits, but let's just say she's a badass.

1:27 She's super creative, and I can't wait to talk to her. So hi, Sam. Good morning. Welcome, Californians, to North Carolina. How are you today? Oh, Holly, I am so happy to see your beautiful face and I'm so thrilled that you invited me on. Oh, it's just such a it's just a kick to see you. I know we we have a lot. I have so much I want to say first of all, like I have many memories of you and you write memoir and essay, which is my favorite stuff to write actually. So you also had a quote but I don't know if you quoted someone else. And I literally had this up on the wall behind my computer for many like maybe 8 years before I moved and it was writing is an act of attrition. Do not a trice.

2:20 Do you even remember saying that? I I don't, but that does sound like that sounds like Sam Original. It doesn't sound polished enough for a Vivian Gornick quote or something else that I usually. I was like, did I even say those words? Right? But like I kept that forever because writing can be so exhausting, especially when you're mining your life. So is that like something that is like good to hear again and remind yourself, or do you like say these amazing things and then forget them because they just happen so easily for you? I love, I love hearing that. I love. I love that that spoke to you. And it's a good reminder for me because, yeah.

3:01 Because it's about just keeping on. It's not about success, you know, having other people tell you you're successful. It's just about keeping on in the process. So thank you for that reminder. Of course, of course I was very happy when I got to ask you for more things of yours to read. There's, there's something in your writing. See, I mean, I get emotional. I'm going to get emotional. Aw, babe. Seriously. And it's because you write like this is going to sound weird, but you write like a writer. And I started this podcast to have conversations because I could talk for hours with my critique partner. We can, you know, like RIP things apart and rebuild them and wonder why that's popular or not popular or criticize our own work endlessly, obviously. And we each have a different goal and a definition of success.

3:53 But for me, there is skill in writing, right? And for me, when I read your work, you balance the emotional with structure in a way that I like the structure. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Like, do you like, is that easy for you? Because in memoir, I don't like for any listeners, I don't know if you write it, there's plenty of rules and plenty of no rules, right? That's the fun part of memoir. But when you don't give like, I don't know how to explain it like facts along with the emotion. Right contact. Is a dump like emotional dump or too much structure and I don't care.

4:38 So how how is your process in being creative? Like how do you manage that? I think you just asked me, is writing easy for me? And of course, writing is so fucked easy for me, Holly, as it is for everyone. It's like, isn't that the point? It's just like so wonderfully easy. No, it's like pulling your own teeth with a with a plier all the time. What I think. First of all, thank you for those compliments. I really appreciate that. My school of of writing was is is was continues to be journalism, right. So it's different than coming from the very precious environment of academia, perhaps where you're looking, I don't know uniquely at the ideas or what. I don't even know how to say that correctly. What I'm trying to get at is in journalism there's always a sense of audience.

5:37 So I have been trained from the minute of my first anything that someone is going to read this. It's not just for me. We can go back and talk about how I had to develop that sense. There's always wait, no, I want you to say that again because I think that is something I needed to hear today. I don't even know what I just said. You just. Said that like I always had. I always knew that my writing was for someone else. Yes. I mean, my idea was always to communicate something to somebody, whether it was just whether it was just an SOS that someone would read about my life or communicate something or persuade or seduce or convince.

6:21 There was always that sense in me that that it was communicating to somebody else. And so if there's structure inherent in what I write, it's always based in that. Does that make sense? Yeah, but it's almost. Your structure is like a hug. Yeah, I know, I know. I'm really not this nice all the time, by the way, but it is. But here's the thing, because I went to school to be a journalist. I went to school to study journalism. I. I did not know that about you. Yeah, I know I did. I wanted to be a journalist and my teachers did not like me. They didn't like me. I even I had interviewed another author and an editor, Betsy Thorpe.

7:02 She'll be in the series, but she has these distinct memories of people telling her that they liked her work. I have no memory of that. So I was at I went to school, College in DC and I wanted to be a journalism, but I also loved Andy Rooney. I loved how he told story right? And I was like, why can't I do that? And they're like, you're in a political environment. Yeah. And this is what you have to write and then. And you're a girl and you're and they. And they were like, and maybe you should just get into lit and the way my teacher would say it and ignited a big fuck you and me, which often leads me to start things. So I think like for me, what I have problems with, let's just call it social media news at the point is like, I remember having to interview three people on this side of an argument. Three people on that side be able to source it, research what they were saying and then present information, right. So.

8:02 Good old days. Yes, believe it or not, that kind of journalism does still exist. It just gets reduced to the six second. Yeah, well, the six second meme, you know, like I think we're just all writing for memes now. It's it's just drives me insane anyway. I agree. I agree, but. So I think that's part of like rereading your work is that like it's home to me, their structure. And yet, you know, you do what a memoirs memoirs does or an essayist, right, is that you share these incredibly personal truths within that, I don't know. It's it's like it's a magic art form. Like I've been looking for literary magazines lately and they're getting smaller and smaller or places that will accept even essays like where I used to sell all the time, right?

8:53 I had one editor. She's like, I love your voice. But she got moved around so much. I think she just quit too. So it's kind of fascinating to be able to tell story in a world where everyone has the tiniest, yeah, like, attention to the span right now. It's interesting though, because I feel that more and more the personal narrative is at the forefront of what people consume. And that can be, that can be very good because we attach to people's stories. We don't attach to people's information. So that's important. But so many people are just strip mining their life for their reels, for their TikTok audience. I just, I Megan Dom, I, I don't know whether she's been on your show yet, but I'm sure you're going to invite her. She has a book out now called The Catastrophe Hour where she very beautifully explores this question of has the personal become too personal?

9:56 And is are are we, are we at the end of our interest in personal narrative? I don't think we are, but the way she explores the question is very interesting just because there's it's so ubiquitous across I. Love that. I also think there's performative and the not performative. Yes, absolutely. Right. I'm gonna be talking to some content creators because they really see the world. Interestingly, where I see the world like, you know, I stare at clouds all the time, like you would think I'm high. By the way, I don't do any drugs because I can see dead people, so I don't need anything to lay. I was going to say you you were just naturally on psilocybum. Your brain is just naturally wired in a certain way.

10:37 I had a client offer me that. I was like, yeah, no, I don't, I don't. Need. I don't need it. Would you like some of my brain juice? Because that's. People ask, ask, ask me to like, Gee, have you ever gone in Ashkawanda? Whatever. No, not. That's what I take it from. Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca. No. Why would I do that? Why would I ever do that? Without it, no. I don't even see anything and I would never ever do that. I don't even know why people people are. People are paying big bucks to go shit themselves in a Hut in Peru. Puke. And puke, it's like, yeah, go, yeah, whatever floats your boat, people, whatever you need to do to feel.

11:21 Like, I'm happy to help you explore your truth and if you have to get high to find that truth, I find that fascinating too. But you know, I have issues with people with addiction. I have daddy issues. So. But that will be my memoir eventually. Yes, please. I want to know. OK, so I have too many questions. I have I have no order cuz my order jumps. So whatever. You are creative. You write about your young life often, right? And growing up where you did and how you did. Did you always know you were going to be a writer? Like, is it like I'm going to be a creative person? Like there's oh, sorry, sorry. I'm just just when I did the question did, did you say you were going to be a creative person?

12:05 Honey, where I am from, that is a luxury that's not afforded to people. That's being a creative person is for trust fund babies in New York City and boys and prep schools and in Connecticut, you know what I mean? That's that's those people get to be creative. We have to make a living where we're where I'm from. And so the idea of being creative to say that you're going to be a creative and make a living and it would be, how dare you? Who do you think you are? Oh, I know that saying. Who do? You think you are that you could ever do that. I mean, look at, look at the trailer you live in, look at, look at the highway that goes to nowhere.

12:51 Look at, look at these things and tell me you're going to be creative. How are you? How are you going to put a roof over your head? How are you going to put food in your belly? And so the way that I knew that I could write, I, I, I only ever wanted to do 2 things. I wanted to be a veterinarian at one point when I was like 6, of course, but that, that was too much math. I quickly assessed and also too. I wasn't, I wasn't. I always say good math in the morning. I do my yeah, I do my bills in the morning because after 11:00 too much. Math, it's just too much math. And I, I couldn't, I couldn't handle the dying, the dying animals.

13:31 I couldn't do that, at least not at six anyway. So writer, I knew that I wanted to write and the only way that anyone was ever a writer in places where I'm from is that you're, you work at the local newspaper. And that's, that was my goal and that's what I achieved because that was what was available to me. I secretly maybe dreamed that I could do something else, but I didn't actually hope that much or actualize that dream until I got to Los Angeles. Until I was in my 20s, really.

14:12 OK. Two things. Did I confuse you? OK. No, I'm, I'm here with you. I'm. I'm fully here with you. I I want to know how you got to Lai want you to share that story. But the other question I have is, do you think if you and I were not in our awesome 50s like we are now, if we were young now and there are so many avenues to be creative, would we have thought? Like I wonder sometimes if I had this many options, which is kind of like going to Costco without a list, which overwhelms me and doesn't work for me at all. Like I have a list. I go in wine, salmon, lamb chops, like I pretty much get the same things every time, toilet paper. But if I go in without something, I'm like, it's I'm over stimulated.

14:57 Like if you were young now and you could do 1000 things like, you know, button poetry or spoken word, or like if you could like become a performance artist who did dressage and, you know, receded a fucking essay, I could totally see you doing that. Like I want you. I could actually, I could actually see myself do that. Thank you for that imagery. No, you know, let's be real, the finances would still be the question if I it would, it would not only be about possibility, which I think is great, which I think is amazing. Everything you've just laid out, you don't, you don't have to go to New York or Los Angeles anymore to make something happen in your life.

15:39 You can do it from anywhere, which is fabulous and exciting. But there's still the question of how are you going to feed yourself and put a roof over your head? And that that to me, finances and and social class were the defining aspects of my. I think those are two. Questions that are are missing from a lot of people nowadays. Interesting, like food and shelter. No meaning like, yeah, no. Like who's going to help me? How do I get it myself? I don't know. That people are thinking, how do I do this myself? That is so interesting, I've never even considered that because that is just the only thing I ever think about like that's. Like how you were brought up, right? Like I had my, my father is like first or second generation American, right?

16:27 Grew up really poor, grew up really hungry and abuse, right? Like, so for me growing up, it was like you do better, you get an education and you do better. I thought my dad is a chemical engineer. I thought I was going to be that. You thought you were going to wow. I know. Wait, I'm really good at science. I'm strange. I have this. I am. I'm really because it's tactile. That's. So interesting. I'm dyslexic. This is like my favorite story. But regardless, like I have this. I took an exam when I left entertainment, I was like, well, if I'm going to leave film and TV and this is what I've been for 18 years, like what am I like?

17:08 What do I do? I'm not a good enough writer to do anything with. Yeah. What are my aptitudes? Yeah. I would have really been good at forestry was like my top score. And I was like, you know what, I would because I love being outside, but I'm also a city girl. Like, I'm just contradictions over and over and over again. I was like, she's like, you have a very scientific mind. And I was like, I grew up with an engineer. Yeah. Like, how do you fix it? Also, if you're a survivor, how do you fix it? Oh, there's that. Yes, absolutely. OK, so interesting in LA. How did there's always a man?

17:48 It's always related to a man, right? Or at least for me, it's like, so do you want the full story or the abbreviated story? You. Can give me the abbreviated one cuz I have like a page and a half of stuff I wanna play. All right, so I I had AI had a boyfriend now boyfriend, future ex-husband who said, hey, babe, I got yeah, I got AI got a gig with chick Korea in LA. Do you want to go for a couple months? I was like not doing anything else. Sure, I'll go for a couple months. That was 1989. Do you think I've left Los Angeles since 1989? I mean, I've traveled. That's what happened dum dum and and complications ensued.

18:31 And there we go, that's the story. I like that. I want you to do my favorite quote from your book about making me a sandwich from Faith and Carlos Glass. You can really. Because I have this memory, so people in the podcast who maybe are just listening to this one. So I worked in film and TV for 18 years, moved across the country to North Carolina, and decided that I'm going to finally give my voice a chance and own my own creativity, which was big and scary and strange. I'd done enough therapy, blah, blah, blah. And I took a bunch of classes at UCLA writers extensions because I wanted to write and I knew I had lost it, right?

19:14 And I had no self-confidence. I, I had a really verbally and horrible abusive first marriage, right? So it's just what I knew coming from an alcoholic father. So there I was trying to like unpack it all. And, and I had this desire to be a writer. Always, always, always, always was a storyteller and I just I walked into I took Rob Roberge was the first class I took. Oh Rob, what a kick. Dude, he clicked his pen. The whole class I was like, I'm going to lose my mind, I'm going to lose my mind and I was like the worst one in the room. I. Was he on his meds at that time or do we know? By the way, everyone in TV Land out there, Rob Roberge is an incredible writer.

19:59 If you get a chance, read his memoir, Liar. Yes, it's written in second person. It's so compelling. He's just, he's just an incredible talent. Which is also compelling because I've been to his house and met her and met them and like, you know, knowing. His wife's Gina Francello, Yeah. So anyway, he used to click his pen and I was like, I can't, please, I can't because also I had worked 1213 hours, right? And like kind of snuck off to like write and he'd be like this. I'm like, and I knew I was the worst one in the room. Like it was like so blatantly I couldn't write like the stone fell up. It was just awful. Anyway, I just kept going because I was like, well, I can get better.

20:41 I guess my thing about myself is I'll just get better. I eventually end up in one of your rooms and there's there's two favorite things about it. First of all, I don't know if this is Rachel Resnick who like told me about you or you told me about Rachel. I can't remember either. Either one is possible. Either way, it could have happened either way. But you were very into salsa dancing and I am a dancer, right? I still dance all the time. So I see your, I see your clips on Instagram. I love them. I I tear myself apart when I watch them. So I am like, Oh my God. So there you are. I talking about salsa. I'm like, yes, queen, do it right. You're there and you're into it and you're like, so, so much smarter than me, is what I keep thinking, right? I was like, oh, look at you go and then there was like a room and then you were talking about like making scenes better and and you do his accent, right.

21:36 You did his accent like you know you have to say the line. I I can't, I can't do that. It's politically incorrect. I can't, I can't do, I can't do that anymore. You. Can say the line. He said I don't even it's been 27 years. After you make after, after we make mad, passionate, whatever. Imagine those days, he said. He looks at me and I think he's going to tell me he loves me. He says, you know what I want to do? I want to fuck you, and then I want you to make me a sandwich. See, it's true story. He actually said that I can't. I can't not. I he actually said I had AI had. A It was so. It was so really. Yeah, picked him up from the airport after he went to a wedding, came home, he me naked in his bed. He's like, we're done.

22:26 OK. Yeah, that was a bad breakup. Anyway, I love this line. Right. Like, that is my line. And then you had us do, like, an exercise where everyone in the room, who by the way, again were, had been writing much longer than me. I was still very much a novice at learning how to write again. And you ask everyone to write a word down. I forget. Write a word, some random word and then pass it to the left. And this bitch next to me wrote a word. I don't, I don't, I don't even know what the word was. I didn't know what the word was. I was like, you're such a condescending little bitch. Like she did it on purpose. It was like. Of course she did so. Smart.

23:06 I am the smart one, yeah. And I remember just owning. I'm like, I don't even know what this means, so I can't write with it. And I was like sweating profusely, but I was like, I'm just gonna own it. Like what is that? OK, let me just. Space like. Let me just say that about you. I love you are always so transparent and so and so willing. I love that about you. That is like one of your superpowers, Holly. It really is. Oh, you. Make me cry. Thank. You. No, it's really true. I've always remembered that about you. I was good. That was one of my questions. What do you remember about me? The other memory that I have of you that I really like, I think it was at Rachel's book signing.

23:48 Were we both pregnant at the same time? I it could be our kid. How old is Is your daughter 16? 17. Oh, so no, we weren't at the same time. So you. Were digging around and I had just given birth. Oh, OK, that makes sense. You were like, surprised. I thought it was metaphor. I was like you said that to me in line too. I did. I went in to have a true story. I went in to have AI, went in to have a hysterectomy and found out I was pregnant at 42. Yeah, go figure. Anyway. See. Sorry. OK, wait, I'm gonna go jump. So anyway, you're in a class and you teach and you're doing these things and you have your books.

24:28 What do you do to manage the one person? Cuz you know, there's always one. I have done a lot of workshops myself. There's always one. How do you manage the one? That is a good question. I don't know that I have a have a conscious strategy because that one person always has different types of needs. Sometimes it's the look at me person, sometimes it's the I'm depressive and suicidal and I'm manipulating people with my depression person. Oh my God, I wasn't you. You named that. That was good. Sometimes it feels that way. It's like I'm, I'm the mentally unstable 1 and they, they may indeed be. And I'm going to manipulate everyone's response around me because I need something.

25:20 A lot of times I just come in like a bulldozer. As you know, Holly, I just come in as a bulldozer. Well, with a big personality, right? So, so that helps manage the room. There's not a lot of room for anyone else to, to seize that control. And I do that not because I'm an egomaniac, although in fact, I may be an egomaniac, but you want to give everybody, you want to protect that space. I, I go in feeling that I'm protecting space for people. Does that make sense? Totally. I'm, I'm, I'm hold, I'm literally holding that space for people. And that's a lot of.

26:04 Work. That's a lot of work. It's a lot of psychic work. You know, there's something somebody told me once and I'm just going to screw this whole thing up because I know nothing. I'll. I'll call you later. Don't. Worry. OK, Call me later. Yeah, write it down and fucking quote me later, years later. But don't call twice. Bitch, don't. Don't it twice. Somebody told me that some in in Asian medicine, like in acupuncture or something, there's a belief that teachers, teachers die sooner than other people because they use their life force energy to hold space for people. Anyway, I'm screwing that whole thing up. No, no, now I'm going to look it up because, you know, I'm obsessed with Asian cultures.

26:52 So something neem is how you say teacher in Korea it sounds like. Interesting, Interesting. Well, I think there's some. Few words I can still say I'm. So I can't say anything. I can say NI hao, that's the only thing. It's Chinese. Hello. Right. Yeah. I think his brother I, I watch, I only watch Asian shows. It's very I like their storytelling and I like that it is not my reality and there is always something that I can learn because I don't. I'm so ignorant about Asia as an American. It's not anything we learn about in school or. Whatever. Oh, it isn't? Yeah. So from. History, literature, we know nothing. I know so I have all these like I could also like turn besides the stack of memoirs that I pulled out knowing that I was going to talk to you and like how they pull up my heartstrings and why I love them and why I'm avoiding writing mine right now. It's.

27:44 Hard one. Is that I have all these books that are translated as well. Oh, that's so good. Storytelling is just so. I think I like being around people who are smarter than me. Me too. Must be hard for you though. Oh, what are you on about? You're just. Seriously. Because you're really well read and you're in a place where you have access to a lot of things all. Right, that's true. My job does give me a lot of access, but yours does too. Look at you, I mean. Oh, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm a like. So if they say no, I think as a writer, I got so used to being told no right when I first started, like especially trying to get an agent, that I don't care if you say no. I love that about you.

28:30 Yeah, fearless. I have a question though. OK so I know someone who's a good writer but they keep selling the same story for years now A. Lot of people do. Why does? It keep selling. It's commerce because people like what's what's comfortable. People like what's known. People like the reassurance of hearing what they already know. I don't know. I have no idea. Listen, there are there are lots, especially genre writers, not exclusively because there are lots of literary writers, I would argue do the same trick over and over again as well.

29:10 But there are lots of genre writers who are essentially writing the same book and God. Bless him, I know. No, I know an essayist who sold the same essay to the same editor. They just with a little tweak like like over and over again. But it's also true that we all, as artistic incline beings, have a certain terrain that we're always exploring, right? I will never not explore being poor in the Southwest. That's like, that's, that's my creative font, if you will, right? That's that's that's the place. You. Got a new quote? I got a new quote. You know, don't cease and desist, girl.

29:52 Cease and desist anyway. But you know what I mean? There's alcoholism and being a stranger in a strange land. Those are those are themes that will always, no matter what I do, come up because that's just that's just part of the broken places in in me. And that's what we're always explore. I don't think they're broken. I don't know. Yeah, they're they're not like they were for sure. Because writing does Katsugi. Is that that? Well, I'll have to double check if I'm saying they're at Katsugi. It's the Japanese art of taking broken pottery and adding gold and putting it back together. That is, so I'm going to Kasugi. Is that what it's called? Because I always say it's interesting that you that you have that image, because I always say that memoir is the collage art of literature, right? We are taking these found objects and we are arranging them and creating a narrative out of these, out of these concrete objects.

30:50 I love that. So when you're going through your life and cataloging it or running into people or having these moments, right, that then you end up collaging together or making this beautiful pottery because I can tell you what I see when I look at you energetically. It's just I will cry. So we'll have to wait for the end, but. Oh, now there's a cliffhanger. I want to know. I want to know. Anyway, go ahead, please. Now you. Are fire, right? You're Leo anyway, so you're fire and gold and music and a little rain and you smell like the dust after you ride. But but like in a field, do you do you know the difference like I am?

31:31 I do OK, OK, because I'm a great trail rider, which is another strange thing of mine. Like I feel so good on a horse, like on a trail, I'm not a good enough rider to think I can do anything else. But when I spent a week in Wyoming, I see I'll cry when I got off the plane because you end up in a small plane to get to. Like we were at a ranch. I stepped off the plane and I was facing the. My God, I'm forgetting the name of those mountains. The the. Tetons. The Grand Tetons. Is facing the Grand Tetons and I heard angels singing and I just started bawling and my man candy husband is so used to me being a woo woo that he's like what do you hear?

32:14 What's going on? Are you OK? I was like, I hear angels like literally I heard I Can't Sing and I definitely Can't Sing like an Angel, but it's like an it's like amazing. And all I felt was this overwhelming connection to land, like really grounded and and then we ended up at this ranch and we eat every family gets like this little cabin. My daughter was much younger as I was trying to family vacation because no one can sit still in my family. So the first day on the horse they're like, hey, we're going to go up here to see if you could actually do what you said you do. And I said, I didn't say I could do anything, right? I just know not to be an asshole around a horse. Don't scare it. I had a horse who liked to puff up before the saddle was put on. So that picture would make me slide all the time. But he by the end of the week we were off trail. By the end of the week, we were riding up a mountain. By the end of the week, I fucking galloped and there's no bra tied enough to for me to be comfortable with that through a like through along a stream.

33:13 And I was just all I could imagine was, Oh my God, what past life was. I am a Native American Indian. Like what? When did I hump this land? And then I had like images of very Mongolian, like being much like smaller and hunting in planes that went like forever and like, so I'm like in this place of loving all of that and everyone's like, aren't you saddle sore? And like, it doesn't really bother me. Why are you talking about it so much? Like when can I do this? Never right? This is a treat for me. This is like a magical literally moment for me. And so in my journal while I'm there, I'm writing down everything, right?

33:53 Every sense, memory, everything that means something to me because I'm always, my biggest fear is that I'll have Alzheimer's and I'll forget it all. But then I then I have it also to pull from right? Because like, what is it anyway? That is what you kind of are, but you're also this like glorious crown, Like it's just, I don't know, it's just your magic. I love you, Holly. You're magic too. Takes magic too. Do magic. I'm honored. I'm honored to be in the magic category. And your hair is really long and you're like other self by the way. Oh yeah, I just got it cut. It's gonna be hard to manage. It's yeah, it's getting hard to manage with my.

34:35 OK, so you're cataloging your life. You have a definition of femininity and strength from your mother. You have definitions of like, what your life was and your social standing, which, like, really like, affected you, right? And now you've also started writing about physical imperfection. I'm going to say chronic illness. Chronic illness, yeah, When I was, I was diagnosed with Parkinson's 2 years ago. And that really, that was fun. That was fun. That's always fun to get that diagnosis. Like, yeah, now you have something completely incurable that's like a slow train that's gonna hit you eventually.

35:17 And that really made me take stock of what I needed to say. What what remains to be said? That sounds dramatic. It's like, like my, like my death is like, my death is imminent. It's not. You don't get to go out that way with Parkinson's. You just, you just rust over a long period of time. But it did make me, it did make me feel particularly vulnerable in the world in a way that I never had before. And that made me realize that many, many other millions of people also feel vulnerable. And exploring that vulnerability together is my current interest and maybe my my perpetual interest now, maybe my last interest, you know, exploring.

36:04 Well, I mean, yeah, in some ways my last, like, in what ways can we connect through our vulnerability? Maybe I was. Maybe I've always been exploring this, but not as consciously as I am now. I mean, I'm horses treated you different have you has your like they're just. Always no, I don't think they treat me differently. I don't I they're so OK. Couple things to say about that. As you were saying, people might not people in podcast land might not know their horses are a huge part of my life. I've ridden since I was five years old and continue. I've organized my life around horses and continue to, and now I used to, I used to be when I was a kid, I, I rode, you know, I did barrel racing, I did competitive endurance riding. I I've done, I've done and then I got into dressage when, you know, in my midlife, a lot of love tried everything. Now I just do trail riding on these big draft horses. It's not, you know, particularly dangerous or fast or anything, but they're, yeah, I mean, what can I say? Have they changed?

37:19 Has my relationship to horses changed or have they changed toward me? I don't think so. It's I've always been my most vulnerable around horses. I've always been most truly myself with a horse. Does that make sense? Totally. Yeah, there's no, there's no act, there's no persona. There's no, there's nothing but self. Yeah, there's nothing but self connecting to to this other soul. And when you say a draft horse, all I see is their ginormous back end. They are ginormous. Yeah, they're just ginormous. It's funny. I started riding, so I don't know whether this is at all of interest to anybody else other than horse people. But about five years ago, maybe six years ago, my gilding died and we had a Mustang mare who was older and she was lonely without him, so we retired her to pasture. So for the first time, for the first time in my life since I was in college at least, I had no horse. And through a amazing series of events, I meet a neighbor who becomes one of my closest friends now. And she has two draft horses.

38:32 She has one butt and two horses. She has a husband who doesn't ride. He loves horses, but he doesn't ride. So she said, do you want to ride these drafts with me? And I thought draft horses how, you know, it's like riding a plow horse, right? How exciting can it be? Oh my God, Holly, if you've never been on a draft horse, it's like, how can I? It's like the new trucks, like they're huge and they've got a massive engine and they're also really plush. They're power steering, you know, power brakes, lots of lots of get up and go. If you just press the gas pedal, they've got the same acceleration as any other car, but just a lot more power. That's what a draft horse is like. They're just, I am just madly in love with draft horses now. And they're incredibly patient.

39:27 Like, like this is boring for anybody who's not into horses, but a quarter horse or a thoroughbred, a hot horse like a thoroughbred or an Arabian wall spook at something, become scared by something and then they perseverate on that for the entire ride. Oh my God, Oh my God is that is that is that bird going to come out again? Oh my God, Oh my God. Right. Draft horse will spook for a minute and be like, dude, that was weird. Anyway, can I eat? That's a draft horse. Thanks. I'm good, Yeah. Wow, dude. All right. Anyway, never mind. No, I, as we were saying. Trail ride too. What was the last one? I was in Colorado and and we it was just me and my husband and it was really narrow.

40:20 We were going through a Grove of aspens and my horse was pretty chill. You know, obviously any, any horse that deals with strangers all the time, it's it's pretty chill. And then suddenly all our horses kind of stop. And I forget her name, but the woman in charge of Mama bear and her Cubs were in front of us. Oh wow. I was like, why the fuck am I on a horse in the middle of them? What it's like, like this thing. And we backed up like I, I turned around on a horse and the trail really was not really much wider than my head. It was very narrow. We were. It did a pivot. Yeah, Pivot. I was like, Oh my, I fucking didn't fall. I'm like all like, I'm not all right. You can't panic. You can't panic, Collie.

41:02 Just turn the fuck and like go, we both pull around and then they call someone else to scare the bear and I'm like, can we just go where there we know there's no bear Cubs like what 40 like 40 minutes later they scare the bear and we we cannot, I can't believe I did this. And we ride past her and she's up in a tree and I'm like, and I saw how scared she was in her eyes. But you can't mess with the I think it's a black bear, right? You can't mess with them, but I remember those eyes and and that I'm on the horse and I'm like, I kind of always define myself as I'm much more of a city girl than not, right? Like I grew up pretty rural on Long Island, rural like way out, though, like where people don't ever talk about that. They live.

41:46 It's either the Hamptons or like Manhattan. I was like in no man's land between I, I grew up near a mental hospital and then so that's like a whole. I have never even mined that so many stories there. But and then I when I when I got to LA, for me it was like, Oh my God, I'm not the weirdo. I'm so normal here. Yeah, it is. It is. It is the land of weirdos. It is the Clarion call that Southern California has for all weirdos. Some. Please go. Yeah, whatever. But now I'm in North Carolina and my husband really likes space and across like where my house is used to be the field where the horses from across the street used to come and just meander.

42:29 So when I first moved here, a woman would ride her big old White Horse down. I have all these pictures of her just walking by me and I woke up to the sound of a donkey because they they had two horses that were older and their companion was a donkey. Yeah, we have a SO. See, I think about you all the time and you just don't even know it because oh, horse, right, It's it's the association. And you write like your whole book about wait, let's pull it back up. Not by accident. I mean, you had a massive accident. I did. I did. It's a long time ago now, but just just for the folks I was this is more than 20 years, 25 years ago, 25 years ago, 27 years ago do I a long time ago.

43:11 Do you? Have to go that far, just round. It's, it's a, it's a long, long time before I needed Botox. I was in a Canyon in Malibu on my beloved horse, who was an off off the track thoroughbred. And we came to a stream and he was freaked out. And this is a bad move. You never do this. But I've been riding all my life, so I don't think the rules apply to me. So I got off my horse to lead him across the stream. This is just not what you should do ever. It's always safer to stay on then get off and walk. And sure enough, halfway through the little stream, I make a movement that Spooks him and he rears back and lunges forward and he lands on top of me. And he had been shot, meaning he has new metal shoes on his hooves.

44:02 He'd been shot the day before and that rear hoof came straight through my shin and essentially severed my leg except for part of my calf muscle and some other flesh. Anyway, Long story short, they eventually pulled my leg back on. I got back on the horse. Happily ever after. It's fine. But yeah, it was it was a life changing accident. It was. Do you have a sexy scar? Oh, it's so sexy. Not so sexy. It's a massive scar. Yes. Don't you have? I never showed you that scar. It doesn't stick. Oh yeah, there's a big indentation in my leg. I mean, two big indentations. I would show you, but I can't get my leg up there.

44:44 You're, you're good. I see. I don't, I mean, I just don't seem, I see it as gold. There you go. Oh, Molly, you're just magic. You're just magic. OK so I have a mug that I also keep on my desk nowadays and it says do not annoy the writer, she may put you in a book and kill you. Yeah. It's one of my favorite. I also, as an essayist, I have several essays because friendships have always been particularly particular for me and a lot of betrayal in them. And I have this one essay about someone who did that. And I'm, I'm like, I don't know where I want to, I don't know where I want to put it.

45:26 So like, it's just kind of there as work. But one of the beautiful things about memoir is you get to condense time and you can take a character and make it more than one person, right? I don't do that. Oh, I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, I don't do that. I mean, some people do, but I, I think that's a move into fiction. And I understand why some people do it. And I think if you're transparent about it, that's the that can work. There are all sorts of legal reasons you might want to do that. But for me, the, the, it comes from my journalism background. Like to to me, that's a move into fiction.

46:08 Let's move into the the question of what if that is not what a memoirist does? It's like, it's not what if it's what did I make this? Here are the facts. What did I make this mean? Does that make sense? Totally. Yeah, that's that's the school that I adhere to and to say. It was like in a memoir, like because, you know, in an essay, I can, I can get as emotional as I want and then edit it, you know, out. So it's palatable. But like, that processes can be quite satisfying. Like I have a memory of meeting this person and I have a distinct image of a tattoo on them, like this giant floral arm piece and it doesn't exist.

46:53 Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I mean, that happens all the time. Memory. I mean, I always tell my students memory memoir is the story your memory tells you. And you go with with that, you do your due diligence to find out what was true. And sometimes you find things that are not true that your brain, when I say true, I mean everything is emotionally true in your writing, but objectively factual, right? Sometimes you run into things that you thought was were objective facts that your brain just, it's simple things like that tattoo you just talked about.

47:33 But where I the trailer park where I lived as a as a kid, I have this memory of a deciduous tree next to the trailer. That tree doesn't exist, but that tree exists in my I can I? Can I actually have memories of looking out and seeing the tree? How can that be? It didn't exist I. Have memories of climbing a giant rock in this house that I grew up in. And I remember traveling back home and going by my old neighborhood because I was like, what, how, what does this house actually look like now? Like what, what are my memories? Because I can tell you the green carpet, right? The shag rug. And it's like, I can tell you what the brick look like.

48:14 And I like all of those little things. And the rock is not big. Yeah, Right, right, right. The memory of childhood, another since you've got me on this topic. This is this is just a fascinating topic that comes up for everybody when we're writing about our own life. So I have this, this, this foundational memory from my childhood. I was like 3. My cousin, my my mom's cousin comes home from Vietnam. He's in his uniform. He's incredibly handsome. His name's Johnny. He he brings me a green dress. I look terrible in green, by the way, but he brings me a green dress and, and to be nice, they dress me up in the dress. And then Johnny takes me in his Mustang, blue Mustang convertible over to my uncle's house, his father's house. And in that ride, I see Johnny driving this Mustang convertible, the radio.

49:16 You remember the old time radios where you had the knobs and he's tuning the radio. Creedence Creedence Clearwater Revival. Creedence Clearwater Revival comes on, is run through the jungle. Of course it is. And I this memory, Holly explains everything about my aesthetic, about the men that I chose, about the music that I like. This is a foundational memory, so this may be 15 years ago or something. This is, I've gone my whole life with this memory, most of my adult life with this memory. I'm talking to another cousin of mine and I, I tell him about this memory. He goes, oh, yeah, no, that that never happened. Yeah, that, that that Mustang was your cousin Sheila's Mustang.

50:07 And she didn't get that until 19, seven or whatever. And yeah, John, you know, John did come home from Vietnam and whatever. Anyway, he took the pieces apart. Somehow I had conflated them into one memory. And that one memory was so vivid and so true. So the question is, do you write the memory the way you remember it? Which I had, which I have before. But now, now for me, now that I know that I had done that is why did I do that? What are the elements of that memory? Why did I, why did I need? I guess the question is why did I need that story? And that's a more interesting question for me to.

50:48 Explore. You're pulling the threads of it now. You're telling the story of the story exactly I. Love, that is. There a story that you've been avoiding writing that you know you'll write. That is that I've been consciously avoiding writing. No, because, you know, I try to write into everything as I'm experiencing it. So I understand it for myself. That's that's the hat trick of writing for me. I'd never say I I can't tell the story now because I don't have enough perspective on it. I will eventually have perspective on it. That will that will be another story. That will be something different.

51:28 But for right now, I'm writing into the moment. I mean, I guess I don't, you know, I haven't written about my marriage. I won't. I mean, part of that is I. Don't I don't have my family on social media I won't like that is the one I have like privacies. Privacy, well, that's the thing. It's like the the privacy and the intimacy of your of your current I. Don't want to monetize my love. Yeah, it's. Like that, right, like you know, I had like for me, I'm I have many essays that I published. I've gotten some crazy comments on them too, but some essays like about we'll just call them daddy issues, right.

52:12 So alcoholic father, what do you deal gets his his sobriety? Is he really sober living like having the life of a dry drunk? All of the things right, like all of the millions of stories how his fingerprints have smudged shit in my life, right, and I don't I don't know my thread yet. I don't know how I want to tell that story or why I want to tell it so much. It's it and it's not. I know it's not about forgiveness. I think it's going to ultimately end up being about like I love do despite it. And you were still a mean motherfucker, right? Like something is there but it's not quite like I have all these little bits I have like I'm looking behind the screen because I literally have a green folder with like 10 chapters just all in disarray of like, I don't know how to organize that yet 'cause it's still annoying.

53:07 It's. Annoying. Yeah, yeah, I know that very well. And you won't know. I mean, I, I don't think you can. You, you, you can't. And you wouldn't want to try to plot that out. The only way you're going to have any resolution is to keep writing into it and it's going to change its shape. Yeah, I mean, sorry, the solution is just. In the writing, it's going to rejoin your group. You have like an online group. I was like, well, maybe if I answer to you I would actually. It's for, that's what it's for. And I try, as you might remember in my workshops, I try not to prescribe solutions. And that works for some.

53:50 Listen, some writing teachers are really fantastic. And they're, you know, able to prescribe action for writers, you know, put a car chase in Act 2. And that will. Yeah. But but for some people, that does work. It's never worked for me as either a writer or a teacher. I believe that we can't know what's inside other people with what possibilities exist inside each writer for their own story. What we can do that is most helpful is reflect to them what's what's catching our attention and where we have questions. What is pulling us out of the experience? And then it's on the writer to figure out what they want to say given that, given that information. And sometimes, often times, that information is quite a surprise because we think we're writing one thing and then what's actually appearing on the page is something else entirely. I love that.

54:48 I think when I did my TE DX talk, I wrote it and I was so proud of what I had written because it wasn't what I pitched. And I wrote this other thing I sent in my critique partner. I'm like, what do you think? She's like, Oh my God. And she's been reading my work for over 10 years, right? So she's seen all sorts of whatever she's like literally the best thing you've ever written, submitted it to TEDx and she's like, this is a great book, but this is a big zero as a talk. Basically. That's what she told me. I was like, I I, I pouted for days, days. I was like it really I did. I felt it was like the best thing I've ever written. I was like, well, maybe that's what my memoir will be like that my daddy issues memoir that I still think I'm going to eventually write.

55:31 Not quite yet, but you had mentioned before we started recording and when we were just chatting on e-mail about the concept of when do you walk away from a? Piece. Yeah. What's that? Yeah, well, why? Would you do that? Well, I don't think about it as walking away from it as much as allowing it to be in a different form. Like, OK, for I'll, I'll give you the concrete thing we were talking about. I have been working on a memoir literally for 20 years. The same material, which is the foundational material of how I grew up. Two women, well, three women, my mother, my grandmother, myself, right in a trailer in rural New Mexico. And what happens?

56:17 Like, how did they get there? What happens? It, it began as a, as a book of reportage about the unmobile class of people who live in mobile homes and the stigma of trailer trash and where that comes from. So I did a ton of research. I can tell you about all HUD regulations on, you know, mobile homes. I can tell, I can tell you a lot of information. So it was, it was going to be weaving that, that nonfiction narrative about America's mobile home situation in with my own personal experience. And I Long story short, it's been many different things. People didn't like that.

57:00 They wanted the personal story and then the personal story was too personal. They wanted more. Anyway, it's, it's been out I think 5 different times in various forms. I've written on this subject. It's, it's been my obsession for most of my life to write on this subject, but it just doesn't work as a book. I haven't, I haven't, let me just say I haven't been able to make it work as a book in my in its current form. So what I did was I decided time is ticking. I want to get this stuff out. So I'm going to essentially eviscerate the material and and form essays from the material so I've actually stack. It or.

57:44 That's an interesting quote. I don't think so. I'm, I think there are lots of maybe too many voices on sub stack that lots of really great voices on sub stack. I don't know that I need to join them. I don't, I don't know that I have the wherewithal to manage and my be my own media producer. So I've been publishing a different but, but that said, I used to have a column in Medium that I, if I had an idea for something, I'd just throw it up on Medium. And I, that was satisfying. I I enjoyed that. Recently I wrote something that I I really loved, so I wrote a lot of the stuff about being a mom when my daughter was younger.

58:29 I don't write about her because she's almost in the. World a teenager. Yeah, it's a privacy thing, but I also had many miscarriages. I end up having a hysterectomy that I had a lot of like medical, like whatever my life, I had some life happening, right. So I would write about all of that and what I thought my life would be versus what it was and whatever. And then you have the teenager as well and there's they do that push you thing right now, which is what they should be doing. But there was a moment in the past year where she called for me like I, I, I heard her like 3 year old lispy tone of voice, right? Like that little that lisp was so cute. And and I came running and it was because a field cricket had gotten by her shoes and scared the shit out of her and she needed me to get it out of the house. And it was like this moment of her being so young and my daughter is like your height.

59:26 She's much taller than me. And you know, it's just funny that she needed her mommy then. So I wrote an essay about that and I was like, Oh my God, I loved it. And I'm so hard. I'm so hard on myself. I don't whatever, whatever. And I got a beautiful rejections and the whole the same theme was it was too happy, It was too sweet and I couldn't find a home because people are still looking for more click baity headline kind of moment. So I don't know where that one's going to end up. But I still love it because it's such a sweet thing to have that moment of memory going back and forth, which is again why I love memoir. And I've started to devour it again. That beautiful play on exactly what you said of how you remember something.

1:00:15 Versus the maybe truth or reality for other people. And like right in it's in that beautiful like light. Like I won't drive and like when it first starts getting dark, my vision's not that good at this point. But something about morning light right is illuminating and it's soft and warm even no matter what the topic is. Because like again, to my right, I have things like a three dog life next to me, of course, the classic glass Castle or all the call the midwives or a good dog. And this man writes about his pet in such a way that like my heart was breaking 10,000 ways and I loved every second of it. It's interesting you just mentioned, Sorry, did I were you going to say more?

1:00:58 You just mentioned Three Dog Life by Abigail Thomas. I had the incredible pleasure of interviewing her last year. She's a a goddess and an icon and she has a sub stack and she puts things up on a regular basis. So even though I'm not doing sub stack, I think that's a very viable form for people's bell lettres. You know, let's let's call it a bell letra rather than a essay, you know, just those those ephemeral moments of insight and. They're so pretty. I haven't. Yeah, I met someone. We were mine. We are on a white water trip and we were mining for gems as you do in North Carolina after you go white. Water.

1:01:41 I did not know that. Yeah, it's a thing. I mean, you were in the Appalachians and there is this person's name. I hope I can say his name. I guess, Andy, you'll have to tell me, but I wrote it down. His name was Enoch Frederick. And if that wasn't the most perfect name I ever heard in my life, I was like, I don't know is going to have that name or how that character is going to show up somewhere. You know, right now, Barbara Kingsolver is, is kicking herself that she didn't have that name. And Demon Copperhead, that is a total, Yeah. That's an. That is an incredible name, Yeah. He was cowboy mountain got boy like he was maybe 20.

1:02:23 He was very young and sweet as pie and with the mam's butt good church, like all all the things that are that part of the world that I think a lot of people have opinions of or might judge. But until you're around it and actually know how salted the earth and amazing they are, you're missing out. Right. Like go out. I think that's part of why I like being a stranger in a strange land. I like being places I probably have no business being and I I'm, I like, I eat that up. I eat that up. So anyway, OK, So what are you working on now? And then and then we'll have to give you my final question, but I want to know what you're working on now so that I can e-mail you and be like, yeah, what about? That What about that?

1:03:12 Actually, I'm working on another essay from that material about about having a shotgun pulled on me. Yeah, that's what happens in the West. Things like that happen. Everything, everything turned out OK, but that that's that's the I can hear the. Click. That's the crazy thing. Yeah, it's so funny that you say that. I was telling, I was just telling Ben, my son about that incident. And that's what I the click of the of the shotgun. Was it 1 of? These was it like yes, it's one of these and I felt, you know, all the blood leave my body at that sound and it's.

1:03:53 Even the sound when you grab a shotgun. It was just, well, he was, it's a long story. And then and then he was like, then he was like, oh, sorry, Sam, I thought you were somebody else. I'm like, who the fuck do you think I was? It's a, there's an anyway, there's a story on that. So that's the, that's the form, That's the incident. That is the spying of an essay because even like. The the the the the sound it would take even to take it out like there's a sound. I don't know if anyone else has any. Out of a gun rack. Out of the gun. Rack the shooting is I know again, you might not believe this, but going to range is fine. But yeah, it is.

1:04:36 I love shooting metal, but anyway, but there's like something to the weight and heft and the smell of it, like it's got all of the things. It's got all of your. The itch of lead. Yeah, yeah, I grew up, you know, I grew up shooting, shooting rifles with my, with my uncle, my great uncle. Oh, yeah. You know, if you grew up in the West, you have a different relationship to guns and yeah, hunting and everything else. Anyway, anyway. And So what else am I? That's so that's my personal thing. And then I have a metric ton of of work that I'm doing at any given moment. I love that. I love that. Yeah, there is a a way to make a life, you know, like all I keep thinking about, and I'm going to throw this out there and you can just tell me to stuff rocks if you don't like it. I want to like I want to put like a little Princess crown on top of that trailer.

1:05:30 You grow up in your memory. Oh. Right, because how you see it and how I see it as like this root integral part of who you are in in defining woman, right. Your mom was strong, yes. Iron. So like my grandmother too. In a different way. Yeah. You're strong too. Yeah. We. Yeah. Yeah, I am. Yeah. Now see, I want to like unpack all of that, but that would be like another hour and a half. So, but, but I want like, so I want to put a crown on it because I like, I wondered like you wouldn't be you right if you didn't have all that. Oh, a dumb.

1:06:12 Thing to say but like I'm so like if if we stuck you in a middle class like suburban, you'd be so bored. You know, yeah, completely, completely. And frankly, a trailer is where I'll end up. I mean, that's the affordability option for retirees with my level of savings. And you know what, people, people think that I'm being defeatist when I say that I'm actually. They're really nice by they're. Really nice. What are what are people talking about? It's like I can't wait for our trailer, our mobile, our manufactured housing. Look, there's a lot of them here. And there's a lot of our manufactured, I can't wait.

1:06:53 I'm looking forward to. It when that the part of the horror of the hurricane that came through last year, it's like communities gone and those are the homes and they've been there forever. Yeah. So heartbreaking. Well. My cousin lived one in Arkansas and I stepped inside. I was like, this thing is so huge. Like it was huge. My mom it did. Matt, it's yeah, People, people who've never been in manufactured housing, have no idea what it's like. Anyway. I can go on and on about that, but your audience doesn't want to hear that. No, we can. But OK, so that'll be Part 2. So I like to end every session with the one question, which is if you came with a warning label, what would it be?

1:07:40 Caution makes frequent stops. All right. Back in the day, it would have been caution. Dangerous curves ahead. Not so much anymore. Yes, you. I have no. You are. You're curvy. It's all you own it. It's just who you are. I'm curvy. I'm taking. That back you're so spicy and curvy and fiery. Thank you. Delicious. Thank you, darling. I like that. Like what? Someone would call me delicious. I was like, what'd you just say? What? Oh yes, you are delicious actually. And you, unlike myself, you look great in green. It's. Your heart chakra.

1:08:21 I was wearing a black T-shirt that said you matter on it. And like before I started like my people, my woo woo energy, people were like, why are you wearing black? Take that shit. And I was like, oh, OK. Interesting. Thank you. Interesting. Someone once told me to wear green. I spent like $4000 on the class. I thought she was going to teach me something that I didn't know and she's like green looks good on you. I was like. 4000 wait. That's a whole other episode. We'll do that some other time. I was going to say I just gave you that for free. I just gave you that validation for free. My God. Anyway. See, when you're looking at something, you'll sometimes find it. You'll find it, but not with the right people. Which is why I think messages for like people who work with healers of any kind. Some people are great, some people are full of shit. But even in storytelling, right, there is a time and a place for how certain people tell story.

1:09:11 And you might not always love it or whatever, but explore, go be around smart people, read Sam's work. Go be around. I want to work with you. I want to tell tell everyone like. Oh wait, let me just say, not only smart be around people, people that you might not consider smart, and watch them open up. Watch them open your heart, you know, just be around people, they'll surprise you and. Not people who agree with you. Please be around people who maybe be a stranger in a strange land. Be a stranger in a strange land, always. Yeah. And anyway, so honey, what was the other question? I, I want to know like what do you have? So this will be coming out in probably September, October. Is there anything you want them to tune into then? I always want people to tune into our monthly bookish program.

1:10:02 It's on the third Friday of every month. It's free, it's for everybody. Conversations with great authors about interesting books. And then, you know, I've got my own private workshop and then you can always find me through you can always find me. I'm through the interwebs for that private workshop. If you've got, if you just need some structure for your own ongoing process, and you can also find me through Pam Houston's literary nonprofit Writing by Writers, where I'd also teach, Yeah, you get you got to get Pam a. Message from your old friend here is that you now need to do spoken word or an essay doing dressage like how? How do I make AI anyone who's listening who could do AII want? I want someone to make that and put it in the comments. Yeah, exactly.

1:10:56 Exactly. Yeah, I think. That would be so cool. Exactly, AI. That's a whole other conversation. Anyway, I gotta get to work. I gotta have to. Go, you have to work. So everyone love you listening to the Holly Hughes podcast. I will see you soon and until then we'll be free. Yay.