Not by Accident: Samantha Dunn Speaks on Journalism, Writing, and Teaching the Next Generation of Creatives

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Welcome to the Holly Hughes
podcast Today.

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I'm very excited, exceedingly
excited, which I've realized I

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say that every time, but really
I've only reached out to people

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that I want to talk to.
That's a really good thing about

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having your own podcast.
You can like reach out to your

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dream people and have
conversations.

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So I have the Samantha done
today and I'm going to hold up

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all the books not by accident
memoir, faith in Carlos Gomez,

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which is one of my favorite
lines that she quotes about

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herself in this one.
And then I I really wanted to be

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in this when you put this
together, which is women on the

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edge.
But I'm going to read a little

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bit about who your your fancy
part is your fanciness ready.

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Samantha Dunn Oh yeah.
And failing Paris, which I don't

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own.
I don't know why.

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Samantha Dunn is the senior
editor of premium content at the

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Southern California News Group.
She produces the companies

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bimonthly magazine Premium as
well as virtual programs

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including Bookish with Author
interviews which you should go

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watch because they're amazing.
She clearly has written multiple

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books, Failing Paris, not by
accident, reconstructing A

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careless life and faith in
Carlos Gomez.

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She also teaches.
And we can go on and on.

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I mean, I actually printed notes
and it's half a page of her

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credits, but let's just say
she's a badass.

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She's super creative, and I
can't wait to talk to her.

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So hi, Sam.
Good morning.

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Welcome, Californians, to North
Carolina.

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How are you today?
Oh, Holly, I am so happy to see

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your beautiful face and I'm so
thrilled that you invited me on.

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Oh, it's just such a it's just a
kick to see you.

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I know we we have a lot.
I have so much I want to say

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first of all, like I have many
memories of you and you write

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memoir and essay, which is my
favorite stuff to write

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actually.
So you also had a quote but I

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don't know if you quoted someone
else.

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And I literally had this up on
the wall behind my computer for

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many like maybe 8 years before I
moved and it was writing is an

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act of attrition.
Do not a trice.

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Do you even remember saying
that?

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I I don't, but that does sound
like that sounds like Sam

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Original.
It doesn't sound polished enough

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for a Vivian Gornick quote or
something else that I usually.

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I was like, did I even say those
words?

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Right?
But like I kept that forever

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because writing can be so
exhausting, especially when

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you're mining your life.
So is that like something that

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is like good to hear again and
remind yourself, or do you like

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say these amazing things and
then forget them because they

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just happen so easily for you?
I love, I love hearing that.

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I love.
I love that that spoke to you.

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And it's a good reminder for me
because, yeah.

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Because it's about just keeping
on.

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It's not about success, you
know, having other people tell

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you you're successful.
It's just about keeping on in

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the process.
So thank you for that reminder.

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Of course, of course I was very
happy when I got to ask you for

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more things of yours to read.
There's, there's something in

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your writing.
See, I mean, I get emotional.

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I'm going to get emotional.
Aw, babe.

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Seriously.
And it's because you write like

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this is going to sound weird,
but you write like a writer.

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And I started this podcast to
have conversations because I

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could talk for hours with my
critique partner.

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We can, you know, like RIP
things apart and rebuild them

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and wonder why that's popular or
not popular or criticize our own

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work endlessly, obviously.
And we each have a different

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goal and a definition of
success.

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But for me, there is skill in
writing, right?

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And for me, when I read your
work, you balance the emotional

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with structure in a way that I
like the structure.

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Oh, thank you.
I appreciate that.

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Like, do you like, is that easy
for you?

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Because in memoir, I don't like
for any listeners, I don't know

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if you write it, there's plenty
of rules and plenty of no rules,

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right?
That's the fun part of memoir.

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But when you don't give like, I
don't know how to explain it

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like facts along with the
emotion.

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Right contact.
Is a dump like emotional dump or

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too much structure and I don't
care.

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So how how is your process in
being creative?

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Like how do you manage that?
I think you just asked me, is

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writing easy for me?
And of course, writing is so

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fucked easy for me, Holly, as it
is for everyone.

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It's like, isn't that the point?
It's just like so wonderfully

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easy.
No, it's like pulling your own

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teeth with a with a plier all
the time.

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What I think.
First of all, thank you for

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those compliments.
I really appreciate that.

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My school of of writing was is
is was continues to be

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journalism, right.
So it's different than coming

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from the very precious
environment of academia, perhaps

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where you're looking, I don't
know uniquely at the ideas or

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what.
I don't even know how to say

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that correctly.
What I'm trying to get at is in

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journalism there's always a
sense of audience.

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So I have been trained from the
minute of my first anything that

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someone is going to read this.
It's not just for me.

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We can go back and talk about
how I had to develop that sense.

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There's always wait, no, I want
you to say that again because I

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think that is something I needed
to hear today.

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I don't even know what I just
said.

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You just.
Said that like I always had.

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I always knew that my writing
was for someone else.

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Yes.
I mean, my idea was always to

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communicate something to
somebody, whether it was just

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whether it was just an SOS that
someone would read about my life

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or communicate something or
persuade or seduce or convince.

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There was always that sense in
me that that it was

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communicating to somebody else.
And so if there's structure

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inherent in what I write, it's
always based in that.

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Does that make sense?
Yeah, but it's almost.

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Your structure is like a hug.
Yeah, I know, I know.

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I'm really not this nice all the
time, by the way, but it is.

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But here's the thing, because I
went to school to be a

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journalist.
I went to school to study

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journalism.
I.

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I did not know that about you.
Yeah, I know I did.

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I wanted to be a journalist and
my teachers did not like me.

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They didn't like me.
I even I had interviewed another

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author and an editor, Betsy
Thorpe.

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She'll be in the series, but she
has these distinct memories of

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people telling her that they
liked her work.

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I have no memory of that.
So I was at I went to school,

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College in DC and I wanted to be
a journalism, but I also loved

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Andy Rooney.
I loved how he told story right?

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And I was like, why can't I do
that?

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And they're like, you're in a
political environment.

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Yeah.
And this is what you have to

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write and then.
And you're a girl and you're and

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they.
And they were like, and maybe

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you should just get into lit and
the way my teacher would say it

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and ignited a big fuck you and
me, which often leads me to

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start things.
So I think like for me, what I

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have problems with, let's just
call it social media news at the

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point is like, I remember having
to interview three people on

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this side of an argument.
Three people on that side be

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able to source it, research what
they were saying and then

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present information, right.
So.

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Good old days.
Yes, believe it or not, that

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kind of journalism does still
exist.

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It just gets reduced to the six
second.

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Yeah, well, the six second meme,
you know, like I think we're

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just all writing for memes now.
It's it's just drives me insane

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anyway.
I agree.

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I agree, but.
So I think that's part of like

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rereading your work is that like
it's home to me, their

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structure.
And yet, you know, you do what a

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memoirs memoirs does or an
essayist, right, is that you

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share these incredibly personal
truths within that, I don't

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know.
It's it's like it's a magic art

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form.
Like I've been looking for

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literary magazines lately and
they're getting smaller and

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smaller or places that will
accept even essays like where I

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used to sell all the time,
right?

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I had one editor.
She's like, I love your voice.

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But she got moved around so
much.

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I think she just quit too.
So it's kind of fascinating to

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be able to tell story in a world
where everyone has the tiniest,

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yeah, like, attention to the
span right now.

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It's interesting though, because
I feel that more and more the

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personal narrative is at the
forefront of what people

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consume.
And that can be, that can be

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very good because we attach to
people's stories.

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We don't attach to people's
information.

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So that's important.
But so many people are just

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strip mining their life for
their reels, for their TikTok

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audience.
I just, I Megan Dom, I, I don't

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know whether she's been on your
show yet, but I'm sure you're

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going to invite her.
She has a book out now called

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The Catastrophe Hour where she
very beautifully explores this

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question of has the personal
become too personal?

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And is are are we, are we at the
end of our interest in personal

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narrative?
I don't think we are, but the

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way she explores the question is
very interesting just because

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there's it's so ubiquitous
across I.

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Love that.
I also think there's

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performative and the not
performative.

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Yes, absolutely.
Right.

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I'm gonna be talking to some
content creators because they

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really see the world.
Interestingly, where I see the

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world like, you know, I stare at
clouds all the time, like you

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would think I'm high.
By the way, I don't do any drugs

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because I can see dead people,
so I don't need anything to lay.

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I was going to say you you were
just naturally on psilocybum.

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Your brain is just naturally
wired in a certain way.

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I had a client offer me that.
I was like, yeah, no, I don't, I

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don't.
Need.

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I don't need it.
Would you like some of my brain

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juice?
Because that's.

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People ask, ask, ask me to like,
Gee, have you ever gone in

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Ashkawanda?
Whatever.

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No, not.
That's what I take it from.

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Ayahuasca.
Ayahuasca.

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No.
Why would I do that?

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Why would I ever do that?
Without it, no.

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I don't even see anything and I
would never ever do that.

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I don't even know why people
people are.

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People are paying big bucks to
go shit themselves in a Hut in

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Peru.
Puke.

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And puke, it's like, yeah, go,
yeah, whatever floats your boat,

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people, whatever you need to do
to feel.

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Like, I'm happy to help you
explore your truth and if you

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have to get high to find that
truth, I find that fascinating

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too.
But you know, I have issues with

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people with addiction.
I have daddy issues.

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So.
But that will be my memoir

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eventually.
Yes, please.

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I want to know.
OK, so I have too many

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questions.
I have I have no order cuz my

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order jumps.
So whatever.

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You are creative.
You write about your young life

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often, right?
And growing up where you did and

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how you did.
Did you always know you were

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going to be a writer?
Like, is it like I'm going to be

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a creative person?
Like there's oh, sorry, sorry.

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I'm just just when I did the
question did, did you say you

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were going to be a creative
person?

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Honey, where I am from, that is
a luxury that's not afforded to

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people.
That's being a creative person

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is for trust fund babies in New
York City and boys and prep

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schools and in Connecticut, you
know what I mean?

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That's that's those people get
to be creative.

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We have to make a living where
we're where I'm from.

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And so the idea of being
creative to say that you're

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going to be a creative and make
a living and it would be, how

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00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,040
dare you?
Who do you think you are?

228
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:40,960
Oh, I know that saying.
Who do?

229
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,000
You think you are that you could
ever do that.

230
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,200
I mean, look at, look at the
trailer you live in, look at,

231
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:51,400
look at the highway that goes to
nowhere.

232
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,840
Look at, look at these things
and tell me you're going to be

233
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:55,880
creative.
How are you?

234
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,080
How are you going to put a roof
over your head?

235
00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,760
How are you going to put food in
your belly?

236
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:06,160
And so the way that I knew that
I could write, I, I, I only ever

237
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,800
wanted to do 2 things.
I wanted to be a veterinarian at

238
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:14,160
one point when I was like 6, of
course, but that, that was too

239
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,440
much math.
I quickly assessed and also too.

240
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,680
I wasn't, I wasn't.
I always say good math in the

241
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:23,960
morning.
I do my yeah, I do my bills in

242
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:25,840
the morning because after 11:00
too much.

243
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,240
Math, it's just too much math.
And I, I couldn't, I couldn't

244
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,320
handle the dying, the dying
animals.

245
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,280
I couldn't do that, at least not
at six anyway.

246
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:39,200
So writer, I knew that I wanted
to write and the only way that

247
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,760
anyone was ever a writer in
places where I'm from is that

248
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,640
you're, you work at the local
newspaper.

249
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,040
And that's, that was my goal and
that's what I achieved because

250
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,320
that was what was available to
me.

251
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:58,840
I secretly maybe dreamed that I
could do something else, but I

252
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:07,640
didn't actually hope that much
or actualize that dream until I

253
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,640
got to Los Angeles.
Until I was in my 20s, really.

254
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:13,720
OK.
Two things.

255
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,080
Did I confuse you?
OK.

256
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,280
No, I'm, I'm here with you.
I'm.

257
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,320
I'm fully here with you.
I I want to know how you got to

258
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,960
Lai want you to share that
story.

259
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,280
But the other question I have
is, do you think if you and I

260
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:32,160
were not in our awesome 50s like
we are now, if we were young now

261
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,400
and there are so many avenues to
be creative, would we have

262
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,040
thought?
Like I wonder sometimes if I had

263
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,440
this many options, which is kind
of like going to Costco without

264
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,200
a list, which overwhelms me and
doesn't work for me at all.

265
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,520
Like I have a list.
I go in wine, salmon, lamb

266
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,880
chops, like I pretty much get
the same things every time,

267
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,080
toilet paper.
But if I go in without

268
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,880
something, I'm like, it's I'm
over stimulated.

269
00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,160
Like if you were young now and
you could do 1000 things like,

270
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,800
you know, button poetry or
spoken word, or like if you

271
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:11,360
could like become a performance
artist who did dressage and, you

272
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,680
know, receded a fucking essay, I
could totally see you doing

273
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:16,640
that.
Like I want you.

274
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,080
I could actually, I could
actually see myself do that.

275
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,120
Thank you for that imagery.
No, you know, let's be real, the

276
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,040
finances would still be the
question if I it would, it would

277
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,440
not only be about possibility,
which I think is great, which I

278
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,880
think is amazing.
Everything you've just laid out,

279
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,480
you don't, you don't have to go
to New York or Los Angeles

280
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,880
anymore to make something happen
in your life.

281
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,160
You can do it from anywhere,
which is fabulous and exciting.

282
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,760
But there's still the question
of how are you going to feed

283
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,680
yourself and put a roof over
your head?

284
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,640
And that that to me, finances
and and social class were the

285
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,240
defining aspects of my.
I think those are two.

286
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,160
Questions that are are missing
from a lot of people nowadays.

287
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,520
Interesting, like food and
shelter.

288
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,400
No meaning like, yeah, no.
Like who's going to help me?

289
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,440
How do I get it myself?
I don't know.

290
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,000
That people are thinking, how do
I do this myself?

291
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,800
That is so interesting, I've
never even considered that

292
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,960
because that is just the only
thing I ever think about like

293
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:22,680
that's.
Like how you were brought up,

294
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,960
right?
Like I had my, my father is like

295
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,760
first or second generation
American, right?

296
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,400
Grew up really poor, grew up
really hungry and abuse, right?

297
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,360
Like, so for me growing up, it
was like you do better, you get

298
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,600
an education and you do better.
I thought my dad is a chemical

299
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:41,840
engineer.
I thought I was going to be

300
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,400
that.
You thought you were going to

301
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,360
wow.
I know.

302
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,440
Wait, I'm really good at
science.

303
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:49,920
I'm strange.
I have this.

304
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,040
I am.
I'm really because it's tactile.

305
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,160
That's.
So interesting.

306
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,080
I'm dyslexic.
This is like my favorite story.

307
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,120
But regardless, like I have
this.

308
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,160
I took an exam when I left
entertainment, I was like, well,

309
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,640
if I'm going to leave film and
TV and this is what I've been

310
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,119
for 18 years, like what am I
like?

311
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,640
What do I do?
I'm not a good enough writer to

312
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:11,760
do anything with.
Yeah.

313
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,839
What are my aptitudes?
Yeah.

314
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,800
I would have really been good at
forestry was like my top score.

315
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,520
And I was like, you know what, I
would because I love being

316
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,680
outside, but I'm also a city
girl.

317
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,520
Like, I'm just contradictions
over and over and over again.

318
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,920
I was like, she's like, you have
a very scientific mind.

319
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,480
And I was like, I grew up with
an engineer.

320
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:34,560
Yeah.
Like, how do you fix it?

321
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,360
Also, if you're a survivor, how
do you fix it?

322
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,320
Oh, there's that.
Yes, absolutely.

323
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,960
OK, so interesting in LA.
How did there's always a man?

324
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,840
It's always related to a man,
right?

325
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,160
Or at least for me, it's like,
so do you want the full story or

326
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,840
the abbreviated story?
You.

327
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,840
Can give me the abbreviated one
cuz I have like a page and a

328
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:04,040
half of stuff I wanna play.
All right, so I I had AI had a

329
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:09,360
boyfriend now boyfriend, future
ex-husband who said, hey, babe,

330
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:13,200
I got yeah, I got AI got a gig
with chick Korea in LA.

331
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,440
Do you want to go for a couple
months?

332
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,520
I was like not doing anything
else.

333
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,000
Sure, I'll go for a couple
months.

334
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,600
That was 1989.
Do you think I've left Los

335
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,720
Angeles since 1989?
I mean, I've traveled.

336
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:30,040
That's what happened dum dum and
and complications ensued.

337
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,920
And there we go, that's the
story.

338
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,000
I like that.
I want you to do my favorite

339
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,800
quote from your book about
making me a sandwich from Faith

340
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,520
and Carlos Glass.
You can really.

341
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,520
Because I have this memory, so
people in the podcast who maybe

342
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,200
are just listening to this one.
So I worked in film and TV for

343
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,800
18 years, moved across the
country to North Carolina, and

344
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,200
decided that I'm going to
finally give my voice a chance

345
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,880
and own my own creativity, which
was big and scary and strange.

346
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:05,760
I'd done enough therapy, blah,
blah, blah.

347
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:11,440
And I took a bunch of classes at
UCLA writers extensions because

348
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,720
I wanted to write and I knew I
had lost it, right?

349
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,960
And I had no self-confidence.
I, I had a really verbally and

350
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,000
horrible abusive first marriage,
right?

351
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,880
So it's just what I knew coming
from an alcoholic father.

352
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,160
So there I was trying to like
unpack it all.

353
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,560
And, and I had this desire to be
a writer.

354
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,960
Always, always, always, always
was a storyteller and I just I

355
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,680
walked into I took Rob Roberge
was the first class I took.

356
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,520
Oh Rob, what a kick.
Dude, he clicked his pen.

357
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,520
The whole class I was like, I'm
going to lose my mind, I'm going

358
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,880
to lose my mind and I was like
the worst one in the room.

359
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,040
I.
Was he on his meds at that time

360
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:57,360
or do we know?
By the way, everyone in TV Land

361
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,920
out there, Rob Roberge is an
incredible writer.

362
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,320
If you get a chance, read his
memoir, Liar.

363
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,160
Yes, it's written in second
person.

364
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,000
It's so compelling.
He's just, he's just an

365
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,800
incredible talent.
Which is also compelling because

366
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,480
I've been to his house and met
her and met them and like, you

367
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,520
know, knowing.
His wife's Gina Francello, Yeah.

368
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,400
So anyway, he used to click his
pen and I was like, I can't,

369
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,320
please, I can't because also I
had worked 1213 hours, right?

370
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,680
And like kind of snuck off to
like write and he'd be like

371
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,840
this.
I'm like, and I knew I was the

372
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,760
worst one in the room.
Like it was like so blatantly I

373
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,320
couldn't write like the stone
fell up.

374
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,840
It was just awful.
Anyway, I just kept going

375
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,560
because I was like, well, I can
get better.

376
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,200
I guess my thing about myself is
I'll just get better.

377
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,360
I eventually end up in one of
your rooms and there's there's

378
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,240
two favorite things about it.
First of all, I don't know if

379
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,600
this is Rachel Resnick who like
told me about you or you told me

380
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,680
about Rachel.
I can't remember either.

381
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,360
Either one is possible.
Either way, it could have

382
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:03,040
happened either way.
But you were very into salsa

383
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,720
dancing and I am a dancer,
right?

384
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,160
I still dance all the time.
So I see your, I see your clips

385
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,160
on Instagram.
I love them.

386
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,600
I I tear myself apart when I
watch them.

387
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,680
So I am like, Oh my God.
So there you are.

388
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,120
I talking about salsa.
I'm like, yes, queen, do it

389
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:21,000
right.
You're there and you're into it

390
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,440
and you're like, so, so much
smarter than me, is what I keep

391
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,560
thinking, right?
I was like, oh, look at you go

392
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,480
and then there was like a room
and then you were talking about

393
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:36,040
like making scenes better and
and you do his accent, right.

394
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,080
You did his accent like you know
you have to say the line.

395
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,600
I I can't, I can't do that.
It's politically incorrect.

396
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,840
I can't, I can't do, I can't do
that anymore.

397
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:46,960
You.
Can say the line.

398
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,600
He said I don't even it's been
27 years.

399
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,200
After you make after, after we
make mad, passionate, whatever.

400
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,520
Imagine those days, he said.
He looks at me and I think he's

401
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,360
going to tell me he loves me.
He says, you know what I want to

402
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,040
do?
I want to fuck you, and then I

403
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,760
want you to make me a sandwich.
See, it's true story.

404
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,640
He actually said that I can't.
I can't not.

405
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,320
I he actually said I had AI had.
A It was so.

406
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,400
It was so really.
Yeah, picked him up from the

407
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,120
airport after he went to a
wedding, came home, he me naked

408
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:24,320
in his bed.
He's like, we're done.

409
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,560
OK.
Yeah, that was a bad breakup.

410
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,520
Anyway, I love this line.
Right.

411
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,240
Like, that is my line.
And then you had us do, like, an

412
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,480
exercise where everyone in the
room, who by the way, again

413
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,160
were, had been writing much
longer than me.

414
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,200
I was still very much a novice
at learning how to write again.

415
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,800
And you ask everyone to write a
word down.

416
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,840
I forget.
Write a word, some random word

417
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,280
and then pass it to the left.
And this bitch next to me wrote

418
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:55,920
a word.
I don't, I don't, I don't even

419
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,960
know what the word was.
I didn't know what the word was.

420
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,560
I was like, you're such a
condescending little bitch.

421
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,160
Like she did it on purpose.
It was like.

422
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:06,840
Of course she did so.
Smart.

423
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,880
I am the smart one, yeah.
And I remember just owning.

424
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,720
I'm like, I don't even know what
this means, so I can't write

425
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,480
with it.
And I was like sweating

426
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,640
profusely, but I was like, I'm
just gonna own it.

427
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,080
Like what is that?
OK, let me just.

428
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,960
Space like.
Let me just say that about you.

429
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:29,200
I love you are always so
transparent and so and so

430
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,360
willing.
I love that about you.

431
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:33,440
That is like one of your
superpowers, Holly.

432
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,360
It really is.
Oh, you.

433
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,000
Make me cry.
Thank.

434
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,360
You.
No, it's really true.

435
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,520
I've always remembered that
about you.

436
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,520
I was good.
That was one of my questions.

437
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,480
What do you remember about me?
The other memory that I have of

438
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,680
you that I really like, I think
it was at Rachel's book signing.

439
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,320
Were we both pregnant at the
same time?

440
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,160
I it could be our kid.
How old is Is your daughter 16?

441
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,000
17.
Oh, so no, we weren't at the

442
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,320
same time.
So you.

443
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,800
Were digging around and I had
just given birth.

444
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,040
Oh, OK, that makes sense.
You were like, surprised.

445
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,560
I thought it was metaphor.
I was like you said that to me

446
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,720
in line too.
I did.

447
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,080
I went in to have a true story.
I went in to have AI, went in to

448
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,800
have a hysterectomy and found
out I was pregnant at 42.

449
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,840
Yeah, go figure.
Anyway.

450
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:21,720
See.
Sorry.

451
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:25,800
OK, wait, I'm gonna go jump.
So anyway, you're in a class and

452
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,120
you teach and you're doing these
things and you have your books.

453
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,640
What do you do to manage the one
person?

454
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,080
Cuz you know, there's always
one.

455
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,400
I have done a lot of workshops
myself.

456
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,960
There's always one.
How do you manage the one?

457
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,880
That is a good question.
I don't know that I have a have

458
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,320
a conscious strategy because
that one person always has

459
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,280
different types of needs.
Sometimes it's the look at me

460
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,920
person, sometimes it's the I'm
depressive and suicidal and I'm

461
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,480
manipulating people with my
depression person.

462
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,760
Oh my God, I wasn't you.
You named that.

463
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,560
That was good.
Sometimes it feels that way.

464
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,800
It's like I'm, I'm the mentally
unstable 1 and they, they may

465
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,280
indeed be.
And I'm going to manipulate

466
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,760
everyone's response around me
because I need something.

467
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,840
A lot of times I just come in
like a bulldozer.

468
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,880
As you know, Holly, I just come
in as a bulldozer.

469
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,160
Well, with a big personality,
right?

470
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,520
So, so that helps manage the
room.

471
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:42,640
There's not a lot of room for
anyone else to, to seize that

472
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,240
control.
And I do that not because I'm an

473
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,160
egomaniac, although in fact, I
may be an egomaniac, but you

474
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,000
want to give everybody, you want
to protect that space.

475
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,160
I, I go in feeling that I'm
protecting space for people.

476
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,920
Does that make sense?
Totally.

477
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,840
I'm, I'm, I'm hold, I'm
literally holding that space for

478
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,680
people.
And that's a lot of.

479
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,320
Work.
That's a lot of work.

480
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,440
It's a lot of psychic work.
You know, there's something

481
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,600
somebody told me once and I'm
just going to screw this whole

482
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,280
thing up because I know nothing.
I'll.

483
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:15,920
I'll call you later.
Don't.

484
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,400
Worry.
OK, Call me later.

485
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,680
Yeah, write it down and fucking
quote me later, years later.

486
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,560
But don't call twice.
Bitch, don't.

487
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:30,680
Don't it twice.
Somebody told me that some in in

488
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,640
Asian medicine, like in
acupuncture or something,

489
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,960
there's a belief that teachers,
teachers die sooner than other

490
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:47,040
people because they use their
life force energy to hold space

491
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,960
for people.
Anyway, I'm screwing that whole

492
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,480
thing up.
No, no, now I'm going to look it

493
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,800
up because, you know, I'm
obsessed with Asian cultures.

494
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,720
So something neem is how you say
teacher in Korea it sounds like.

495
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,760
Interesting, Interesting.
Well, I think there's some.

496
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,480
Few words I can still say I'm.
So I can't say anything.

497
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,080
I can say NI hao, that's the
only thing.

498
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,040
It's Chinese.
Hello.

499
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,040
Right.
Yeah.

500
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,040
I think his brother I, I watch,
I only watch Asian shows.

501
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,320
It's very I like their
storytelling and I like that it

502
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,400
is not my reality and there is
always something that I can

503
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,320
learn because I don't.
I'm so ignorant about Asia as an

504
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,000
American.
It's not anything we learn about

505
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:25,960
in school or.
Whatever.

506
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,160
Oh, it isn't?
Yeah.

507
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,440
So from.
History, literature, we know

508
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,800
nothing.
I know so I have all these like

509
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,920
I could also like turn besides
the stack of memoirs that I

510
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,320
pulled out knowing that I was
going to talk to you and like

511
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,880
how they pull up my heartstrings
and why I love them and why I'm

512
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,320
avoiding writing mine right now.
It's.

513
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,480
Hard one.
Is that I have all these books

514
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,000
that are translated as well.
Oh, that's so good.

515
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,280
Storytelling is just so.
I think I like being around

516
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,720
people who are smarter than me.
Me too.

517
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,200
Must be hard for you though.
Oh, what are you on about?

518
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,040
You're just.
Seriously.

519
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,720
Because you're really well read
and you're in a place where you

520
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,760
have access to a lot of things
all.

521
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,440
Right, that's true.
My job does give me a lot of

522
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,360
access, but yours does too.
Look at you, I mean.

523
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:17,440
Oh, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm a like.
So if they say no, I think as a

524
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,160
writer, I got so used to being
told no right when I first

525
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:26,680
started, like especially trying
to get an agent, that I don't

526
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,640
care if you say no.
I love that about you.

527
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,680
Yeah, fearless.
I have a question though.

528
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,000
OK so I know someone who's a
good writer but they keep

529
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,480
selling the same story for years
now A.

530
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,600
Lot of people do.
Why does?

531
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,000
It keep selling.
It's commerce because people

532
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,200
like what's what's comfortable.
People like what's known.

533
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,080
People like the reassurance of
hearing what they already know.

534
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,560
I don't know.
I have no idea.

535
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,200
Listen, there are there are
lots, especially genre writers,

536
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,760
not exclusively because there
are lots of literary writers, I

537
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,840
would argue do the same trick
over and over again as well.

538
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,880
But there are lots of genre
writers who are essentially

539
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,800
writing the same book and God.
Bless him, I know.

540
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,240
No, I know an essayist who sold
the same essay to the same

541
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,480
editor.
They just with a little tweak

542
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:28,160
like like over and over again.
But it's also true that we all,

543
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,160
as artistic incline beings, have
a certain terrain that we're

544
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,920
always exploring, right?
I will never not explore being

545
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,520
poor in the Southwest.
That's like, that's, that's my

546
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,440
creative font, if you will,
right?

547
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,960
That's that's that's the place.
You.

548
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,280
Got a new quote?
I got a new quote.

549
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,000
You know, don't cease and
desist, girl.

550
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,120
Cease and desist anyway.
But you know what I mean?

551
00:29:54,120 --> 00:30:00,200
There's alcoholism and being a
stranger in a strange land.

552
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,480
Those are those are themes that
will always, no matter what I

553
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,680
do, come up because that's just
that's just part of the broken

554
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,080
places in in me.
And that's what we're always

555
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,120
explore.
I don't think they're broken.

556
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:14,960
I don't know.
Yeah, they're they're not like

557
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,960
they were for sure.
Because writing does Katsugi.

558
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,520
Is that that?
Well, I'll have to double check

559
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,120
if I'm saying they're at
Katsugi.

560
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,280
It's the Japanese art of taking
broken pottery and adding gold

561
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,000
and putting it back together.
That is, so I'm going to Kasugi.

562
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,640
Is that what it's called?
Because I always say it's

563
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,440
interesting that you that you
have that image, because I

564
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,920
always say that memoir is the
collage art of literature,

565
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,200
right?
We are taking these found

566
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,320
objects and we are arranging
them and creating a narrative

567
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,520
out of these, out of these
concrete objects.

568
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,920
I love that.
So when you're going through

569
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,520
your life and cataloging it or
running into people or having

570
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,680
these moments, right, that then
you end up collaging together or

571
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,080
making this beautiful pottery
because I can tell you what I

572
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,200
see when I look at you
energetically.

573
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,800
It's just I will cry.
So we'll have to wait for the

574
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,480
end, but.
Oh, now there's a cliffhanger.

575
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:13,560
I want to know.
I want to know.

576
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:14,800
Anyway, go ahead, please.
Now you.

577
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,200
Are fire, right?
You're Leo anyway, so you're

578
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:23,520
fire and gold and music and a
little rain and you smell like

579
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:29,840
the dust after you ride.
But but like in a field, do you

580
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,200
do you know the difference like
I am?

581
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,840
I do OK, OK, because I'm a great
trail rider, which is another

582
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,560
strange thing of mine.
Like I feel so good on a horse,

583
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,040
like on a trail, I'm not a good
enough rider to think I can do

584
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,640
anything else.
But when I spent a week in

585
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,080
Wyoming, I see I'll cry when I
got off the plane because you

586
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,680
end up in a small plane to get
to.

587
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,400
Like we were at a ranch.
I stepped off the plane and I

588
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,600
was facing the.
My God, I'm forgetting the name

589
00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:59,760
of those mountains.
The the.

590
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:01,520
Tetons.
The Grand Tetons.

591
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,320
Is facing the Grand Tetons and I
heard angels singing and I just

592
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:11,720
started bawling and my man candy
husband is so used to me being a

593
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,920
woo woo that he's like what do
you hear?

594
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,000
What's going on?
Are you OK?

595
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,520
I was like, I hear angels like
literally I heard I Can't Sing

596
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,120
and I definitely Can't Sing like
an Angel, but it's like an it's

597
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,840
like amazing.
And all I felt was this

598
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:32,960
overwhelming connection to land,
like really grounded and and

599
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,920
then we ended up at this ranch
and we eat every family gets

600
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,080
like this little cabin.
My daughter was much younger as

601
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,960
I was trying to family vacation
because no one can sit still in

602
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,360
my family.
So the first day on the horse

603
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,480
they're like, hey, we're going
to go up here to see if you

604
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:48,880
could actually do what you said
you do.

605
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,800
And I said, I didn't say I could
do anything, right?

606
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,720
I just know not to be an asshole
around a horse.

607
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,720
Don't scare it.
I had a horse who liked to puff

608
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,560
up before the saddle was put on.
So that picture would make me

609
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,680
slide all the time.
But he by the end of the week we

610
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,160
were off trail.
By the end of the week, we were

611
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:06,960
riding up a mountain.
By the end of the week, I

612
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,840
fucking galloped and there's no
bra tied enough to for me to be

613
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,680
comfortable with that through a
like through along a stream.

614
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,880
And I was just all I could
imagine was, Oh my God, what

615
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,920
past life was.
I am a Native American Indian.

616
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,160
Like what?
When did I hump this land?

617
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:28,520
And then I had like images of
very Mongolian, like being much

618
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,520
like smaller and hunting in
planes that went like forever

619
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,760
and like, so I'm like in this
place of loving all of that and

620
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,000
everyone's like, aren't you
saddle sore?

621
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,400
And like, it doesn't really
bother me.

622
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,040
Why are you talking about it so
much?

623
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,640
Like when can I do this?
Never right?

624
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,000
This is a treat for me.
This is like a magical literally

625
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,240
moment for me.
And so in my journal while I'm

626
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,680
there, I'm writing down
everything, right?

627
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,080
Every sense, memory, everything
that means something to me

628
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,480
because I'm always, my biggest
fear is that I'll have

629
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,040
Alzheimer's and I'll forget it
all.

630
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,240
But then I then I have it also
to pull from right?

631
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,800
Because like, what is it anyway?
That is what you kind of are,

632
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,679
but you're also this like
glorious crown, Like it's just,

633
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,480
I don't know, it's just your
magic.

634
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,040
I love you, Holly.
You're magic too.

635
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:20,560
Takes magic too.
Do magic.

636
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,960
I'm honored.
I'm honored to be in the magic

637
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,560
category.
And your hair is really long and

638
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,159
you're like other self by the
way.

639
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,600
Oh yeah, I just got it cut.
It's gonna be hard to manage.

640
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,560
It's yeah, it's getting hard to
manage with my.

641
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:36,920
OK, so you're cataloging your
life.

642
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,560
You have a definition of
femininity and strength from

643
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,400
your mother.
You have definitions of like,

644
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,440
what your life was and your
social standing, which, like,

645
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,600
really like, affected you,
right?

646
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,679
And now you've also started
writing about physical

647
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,880
imperfection.
I'm going to say chronic

648
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,120
illness.
Chronic illness, yeah, When I

649
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,720
was, I was diagnosed with
Parkinson's 2 years ago.

650
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,600
And that really, that was fun.
That was fun.

651
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,480
That's always fun to get that
diagnosis.

652
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,760
Like, yeah, now you have
something completely incurable

653
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,360
that's like a slow train that's
gonna hit you eventually.

654
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,760
And that really made me take
stock of what I needed to say.

655
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,960
What what remains to be said?
That sounds dramatic.

656
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,840
It's like, like my, like my
death is like, my death is

657
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:30,760
imminent.
It's not.

658
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,040
You don't get to go out that way
with Parkinson's.

659
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,920
You just, you just rust over a
long period of time.

660
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,640
But it did make me, it did make
me feel particularly vulnerable

661
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,920
in the world in a way that I
never had before.

662
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,960
And that made me realize that
many, many other millions of

663
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,160
people also feel vulnerable.
And exploring that vulnerability

664
00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:00,000
together is my current interest
and maybe my my perpetual

665
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,120
interest now, maybe my last
interest, you know, exploring.

666
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:10,360
Well, I mean, yeah, in some ways
my last, like, in what ways can

667
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,240
we connect through our
vulnerability?

668
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,440
Maybe I was.
Maybe I've always been exploring

669
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,480
this, but not as consciously as
I am now.

670
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,280
I mean, I'm horses treated you
different have you has your like

671
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,920
they're just.
Always no, I don't think they

672
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,960
treat me differently.
I don't I they're so OK.

673
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,160
Couple things to say about that.
As you were saying, people might

674
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,640
not people in podcast land might
not know their horses are a huge

675
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,640
part of my life.
I've ridden since I was five

676
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,360
years old and continue.
I've organized my life around

677
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:49,520
horses and continue to, and now
I used to, I used to be when I

678
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,320
was a kid, I, I rode, you know,
I did barrel racing, I did

679
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,640
competitive endurance riding.
I I've done, I've done and then

680
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,080
I got into dressage when, you
know, in my midlife, a lot of

681
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,320
love tried everything.
Now I just do trail riding on

682
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,480
these big draft horses.
It's not, you know, particularly

683
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:17,400
dangerous or fast or anything,
but they're, yeah, I mean, what

684
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,600
can I say?
Have they changed?

685
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,600
Has my relationship to horses
changed or have they changed

686
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,440
toward me?
I don't think so.

687
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,280
It's I've always been my most
vulnerable around horses.

688
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,000
I've always been most truly
myself with a horse.

689
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:33,040
Does that make sense?
Totally.

690
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,680
Yeah, there's no, there's no
act, there's no persona.

691
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,400
There's no, there's nothing but
self.

692
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,920
Yeah, there's nothing but self
connecting to to this other

693
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,920
soul.
And when you say a draft horse,

694
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,760
all I see is their ginormous
back end.

695
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:54,400
They are ginormous.
Yeah, they're just ginormous.

696
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,840
It's funny.
I started riding, so I don't

697
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,920
know whether this is at all of
interest to anybody else other

698
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,720
than horse people.
But about five years ago, maybe

699
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:08,440
six years ago, my gilding died
and we had a Mustang mare who

700
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,840
was older and she was lonely
without him, so we retired her

701
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,920
to pasture.
So for the first time, for the

702
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,360
first time in my life since I
was in college at least, I had

703
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:24,520
no horse.
And through a amazing series of

704
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,840
events, I meet a neighbor who
becomes one of my closest

705
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,080
friends now.
And she has two draft horses.

706
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,200
She has one butt and two horses.
She has a husband who doesn't

707
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:37,800
ride.
He loves horses, but he doesn't

708
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,440
ride.
So she said, do you want to ride

709
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,160
these drafts with me?
And I thought draft horses how,

710
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,560
you know, it's like riding a
plow horse, right?

711
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,920
How exciting can it be?
Oh my God, Holly, if you've

712
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,600
never been on a draft horse,
it's like, how can I?

713
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,160
It's like the new trucks, like
they're huge and they've got a

714
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,320
massive engine and they're also
really plush.

715
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:09,560
They're power steering, you
know, power brakes, lots of lots

716
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,520
of get up and go.
If you just press the gas pedal,

717
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,840
they've got the same
acceleration as any other car,

718
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,320
but just a lot more power.
That's what a draft horse is

719
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,760
like.
They're just, I am just madly in

720
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,560
love with draft horses now.
And they're incredibly patient.

721
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,400
Like, like this is boring for
anybody who's not into horses,

722
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,440
but a quarter horse or a
thoroughbred, a hot horse like a

723
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,720
thoroughbred or an Arabian wall
spook at something, become

724
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:44,480
scared by something and then
they perseverate on that for the

725
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,400
entire ride.
Oh my God, Oh my God is that is

726
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,440
that is that bird going to come
out again?

727
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,720
Oh my God, Oh my God.
Right.

728
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,320
Draft horse will spook for a
minute and be like, dude, that

729
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,680
was weird.
Anyway, can I eat?

730
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,920
That's a draft horse.
Thanks.

731
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:02,640
I'm good, Yeah.
Wow, dude.

732
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,480
All right.
Anyway, never mind.

733
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,680
No, I, as we were saying.
Trail ride too.

734
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:14,720
What was the last one?
I was in Colorado and and we it

735
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:20,720
was just me and my husband and
it was really narrow.

736
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:25,200
We were going through a Grove of
aspens and my horse was pretty

737
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,200
chill.
You know, obviously any, any

738
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,680
horse that deals with strangers
all the time, it's it's pretty

739
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,120
chill.
And then suddenly all our horses

740
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,680
kind of stop.
And I forget her name, but the

741
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,160
woman in charge of Mama bear and
her Cubs were in front of us.

742
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,160
Oh wow.
I was like, why the fuck am I on

743
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,480
a horse in the middle of them?
What it's like, like this thing.

744
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,360
And we backed up like I, I
turned around on a horse and the

745
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,000
trail really was not really much
wider than my head.

746
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,640
It was very narrow.
We were.

747
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,480
It did a pivot.
Yeah, Pivot.

748
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,320
I was like, Oh my, I fucking
didn't fall.

749
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:00,560
I'm like all like, I'm not all
right.

750
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,680
You can't panic.
You can't panic, Collie.

751
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,880
Just turn the fuck and like go,
we both pull around and then

752
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,520
they call someone else to scare
the bear and I'm like, can we

753
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,920
just go where there we know
there's no bear Cubs like what

754
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,680
40 like 40 minutes later they
scare the bear and we we cannot,

755
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,920
I can't believe I did this.
And we ride past her and she's

756
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:26,680
up in a tree and I'm like, and I
saw how scared she was in her

757
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,320
eyes.
But you can't mess with the I

758
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,600
think it's a black bear, right?
You can't mess with them, but I

759
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,520
remember those eyes and and that
I'm on the horse and I'm like, I

760
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,240
kind of always define myself as
I'm much more of a city girl

761
00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:42,640
than not, right?
Like I grew up pretty rural on

762
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,480
Long Island, rural like way out,
though, like where people don't

763
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,720
ever talk about that.
They live.

764
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:48,560
It's either the Hamptons or like
Manhattan.

765
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,240
I was like in no man's land
between I, I grew up near a

766
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:54,840
mental hospital and then so
that's like a whole.

767
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,120
I have never even mined that so
many stories there.

768
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,200
But and then I when I when I got
to LA, for me it was like, Oh my

769
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,320
God, I'm not the weirdo.
I'm so normal here.

770
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,160
Yeah, it is.
It is.

771
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,800
It is the land of weirdos.
It is the Clarion call that

772
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,520
Southern California has for all
weirdos.

773
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:16,200
Some.
Please go.

774
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:18,200
Yeah, whatever.
But now I'm in North Carolina

775
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,320
and my husband really likes
space and across like where my

776
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:27,200
house is used to be the field
where the horses from across the

777
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,160
street used to come and just
meander.

778
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:31,840
So when I first moved here, a
woman would ride her big old

779
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,080
White Horse down.
I have all these pictures of her

780
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,360
just walking by me and I woke up
to the sound of a donkey because

781
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,480
they they had two horses that
were older and their companion

782
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,600
was a donkey.
Yeah, we have a SO.

783
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,880
See, I think about you all the
time and you just don't even

784
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,120
know it because oh, horse,
right, It's it's the

785
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,960
association.
And you write like your whole

786
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,920
book about wait, let's pull it
back up.

787
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,320
Not by accident.
I mean, you had a massive

788
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,280
accident.
I did.

789
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,600
I did.
It's a long time ago now, but

790
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:08,400
just just for the folks I was
this is more than 20 years, 25

791
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,840
years ago, 25 years ago, 27
years ago do I a long time ago.

792
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,440
Do you?
Have to go that far, just round.

793
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,520
It's, it's a, it's a long, long
time before I needed Botox.

794
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,760
I was in a Canyon in Malibu on
my beloved horse, who was an off

795
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,280
off the track thoroughbred.
And we came to a stream and he

796
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,600
was freaked out.
And this is a bad move.

797
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,520
You never do this.
But I've been riding all my

798
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,680
life, so I don't think the rules
apply to me.

799
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,720
So I got off my horse to lead
him across the stream.

800
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,080
This is just not what you should
do ever.

801
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,920
It's always safer to stay on
then get off and walk.

802
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,560
And sure enough, halfway through
the little stream, I make a

803
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,840
movement that Spooks him and he
rears back and lunges forward

804
00:43:54,880 --> 00:44:00,160
and he lands on top of me.
And he had been shot, meaning he

805
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,520
has new metal shoes on his
hooves.

806
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:07,640
He'd been shot the day before
and that rear hoof came straight

807
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:13,440
through my shin and essentially
severed my leg except for part

808
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,960
of my calf muscle and some other
flesh.

809
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,000
Anyway, Long story short, they
eventually pulled my leg back

810
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,920
on.
I got back on the horse.

811
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,840
Happily ever after.
It's fine.

812
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,440
But yeah, it was it was a life
changing accident.

813
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,880
It was.
Do you have a sexy scar?

814
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:31,280
Oh, it's so sexy.
Not so sexy.

815
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,240
It's a massive scar.
Yes.

816
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,320
Don't you have?
I never showed you that scar.

817
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,080
It doesn't stick.
Oh yeah, there's a big

818
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,360
indentation in my leg.
I mean, two big indentations.

819
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,520
I would show you, but I can't
get my leg up there.

820
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:45,920
You're, you're good.
I see.

821
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,440
I don't, I mean, I just don't
seem, I see it as gold.

822
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,120
There you go.
Oh, Molly, you're just magic.

823
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,960
You're just magic.
OK so I have a mug that I also

824
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,720
keep on my desk nowadays and it
says do not annoy the writer,

825
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:04,320
she may put you in a book and
kill you.

826
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,440
Yeah.
It's one of my favorite.

827
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,160
I also, as an essayist, I have
several essays because

828
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,360
friendships have always been
particularly particular for me

829
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:20,680
and a lot of betrayal in them.
And I have this one essay about

830
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,480
someone who did that.
And I'm, I'm like, I don't know

831
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,240
where I want to, I don't know
where I want to put it.

832
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:28,680
So like, it's just kind of there
as work.

833
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,560
But one of the beautiful things
about memoir is you get to

834
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,400
condense time and you can take a
character and make it more than

835
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,280
one person, right?
I don't do that.

836
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,920
Oh, I was going to ask you about
that.

837
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,040
Yeah, I don't do that.
I mean, some people do, but I, I

838
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,640
think that's a move into
fiction.

839
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,440
And I understand why some people
do it.

840
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,640
And I think if you're
transparent about it, that's the

841
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,160
that can work.
There are all sorts of legal

842
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:56,560
reasons you might want to do
that.

843
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:05,240
But for me, the, the, it comes
from my journalism background.

844
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,080
Like to to me, that's a move
into fiction.

845
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:14,200
Let's move into the the question
of what if that is not what a

846
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,400
memoirist does?
It's like, it's not what if it's

847
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,520
what did I make this?
Here are the facts.

848
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,840
What did I make this mean?
Does that make sense?

849
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,440
Totally.
Yeah, that's that's the school

850
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,640
that I adhere to and to say.
It was like in a memoir, like

851
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:37,120
because, you know, in an essay,
I can, I can get as emotional as

852
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,920
I want and then edit it, you
know, out.

853
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,760
So it's palatable.
But like, that processes can be

854
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,440
quite satisfying.
Like I have a memory of meeting

855
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,960
this person and I have a
distinct image of a tattoo on

856
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,600
them, like this giant floral arm
piece and it doesn't exist.

857
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,480
Isn't that interesting?
Yeah, I mean, that happens all

858
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:58,360
the time.
Memory.

859
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,160
I mean, I always tell my
students memory memoir is the

860
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:07,920
story your memory tells you.
And you go with with that, you

861
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,560
do your due diligence to find
out what was true.

862
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,680
And sometimes you find things
that are not true that your

863
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:19,120
brain, when I say true, I mean
everything is emotionally true

864
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,960
in your writing, but objectively
factual, right?

865
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,000
Sometimes you run into things
that you thought was were

866
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,360
objective facts that your brain
just, it's simple things like

867
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,560
that tattoo you just talked
about.

868
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:39,040
But where I the trailer park
where I lived as a as a kid, I

869
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:45,640
have this memory of a deciduous
tree next to the trailer.

870
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,400
That tree doesn't exist, but
that tree exists in my I can I?

871
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,920
Can I actually have memories of
looking out and seeing the tree?

872
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,640
How can that be?
It didn't exist I.

873
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,000
Have memories of climbing a
giant rock in this house that I

874
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,120
grew up in.
And I remember traveling back

875
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,240
home and going by my old
neighborhood because I was like,

876
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:07,920
what, how, what does this house
actually look like now?

877
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,200
Like what, what are my memories?
Because I can tell you the green

878
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,240
carpet, right?
The shag rug.

879
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:14,520
And it's like, I can tell you
what the brick look like.

880
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,200
And I like all of those little
things.

881
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:24,680
And the rock is not big.
Yeah, Right, right, right.

882
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,760
The memory of childhood, another
since you've got me on this

883
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,360
topic.
This is this is just a

884
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,440
fascinating topic that comes up
for everybody when we're writing

885
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,520
about our own life.
So I have this, this, this

886
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,960
foundational memory from my
childhood.

887
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,120
I was like 3.
My cousin, my my mom's cousin

888
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,360
comes home from Vietnam.
He's in his uniform.

889
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,120
He's incredibly handsome.
His name's Johnny.

890
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:54,080
He he brings me a green dress.
I look terrible in green, by the

891
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:59,760
way, but he brings me a green
dress and, and to be nice, they

892
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,760
dress me up in the dress.
And then Johnny takes me in his

893
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,840
Mustang, blue Mustang
convertible over to my uncle's

894
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,360
house, his father's house.
And in that ride, I see Johnny

895
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,360
driving this Mustang
convertible, the radio.

896
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,240
You remember the old time radios
where you had the knobs and he's

897
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:25,000
tuning the radio.
Creedence Creedence Clearwater

898
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,000
Revival.
Creedence Clearwater Revival

899
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,920
comes on, is run through the
jungle.

900
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:34,480
Of course it is.
And I this memory, Holly

901
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,960
explains everything about my
aesthetic, about the men that I

902
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,360
chose, about the music that I
like.

903
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:47,400
This is a foundational memory,
so this may be 15 years ago or

904
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,200
something.
This is, I've gone my whole life

905
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,760
with this memory, most of my
adult life with this memory.

906
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,960
I'm talking to another cousin of
mine and I, I tell him about

907
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,240
this memory.
He goes, oh, yeah, no, that that

908
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:05,640
never happened.
Yeah, that, that that Mustang

909
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,360
was your cousin Sheila's
Mustang.

910
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,560
And she didn't get that until
19, seven or whatever.

911
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,080
And yeah, John, you know, John
did come home from Vietnam and

912
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,480
whatever.
Anyway, he took the pieces

913
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,720
apart.
Somehow I had conflated them

914
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:24,600
into one memory.
And that one memory was so vivid

915
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,120
and so true.
So the question is, do you write

916
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:29,840
the memory the way you remember
it?

917
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,840
Which I had, which I have
before.

918
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,960
But now, now for me, now that I
know that I had done that is why

919
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,720
did I do that?
What are the elements of that

920
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:42,440
memory?
Why did I, why did I need?

921
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,440
I guess the question is why did
I need that story?

922
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,040
And that's a more interesting
question for me to.

923
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:49,680
Explore.
You're pulling the threads of it

924
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,840
now.
You're telling the story of the

925
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,760
story exactly I.
Love, that is.

926
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,200
There a story that you've been
avoiding writing that you know

927
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:04,120
you'll write.
That is that I've been

928
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:10,040
consciously avoiding writing.
No, because, you know, I try to

929
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,000
write into everything as I'm
experiencing it.

930
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,680
So I understand it for myself.
That's that's the hat trick of

931
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,360
writing for me.
I'd never say I I can't tell the

932
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,760
story now because I don't have
enough perspective on it.

933
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,880
I will eventually have
perspective on it.

934
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,720
That will that will be another
story.

935
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:28,040
That will be something
different.

936
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,680
But for right now, I'm writing
into the moment.

937
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:36,280
I mean, I guess I don't, you
know, I haven't written about my

938
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,960
marriage.
I won't.

939
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,000
I mean, part of that is I.
Don't I don't have my family on

940
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,360
social media I won't like that
is the one I have like

941
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,720
privacies.
Privacy, well, that's the thing.

942
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:53,480
It's like the the privacy and
the intimacy of your of your

943
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,720
current I.
Don't want to monetize my love.

944
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,200
Yeah, it's.
Like that, right, like you know,

945
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:06,440
I had like for me, I'm I have
many essays that I published.

946
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,400
I've gotten some crazy comments
on them too, but some essays

947
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,000
like about we'll just call them
daddy issues, right.

948
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,600
So alcoholic father, what do you
deal gets his his sobriety?

949
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,760
Is he really sober living like
having the life of a dry drunk?

950
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,880
All of the things right, like
all of the millions of stories

951
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,400
how his fingerprints have
smudged shit in my life, right,

952
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,360
and I don't I don't know my
thread yet.

953
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,280
I don't know how I want to tell
that story or why I want to tell

954
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,280
it so much.
It's it and it's not.

955
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,480
I know it's not about
forgiveness.

956
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,920
I think it's going to ultimately
end up being about like I love

957
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,280
do despite it.
And you were still a mean

958
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,240
motherfucker, right?
Like something is there but it's

959
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:54,080
not quite like I have all these
little bits I have like I'm

960
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,720
looking behind the screen
because I literally have a green

961
00:52:56,720 --> 00:53:02,040
folder with like 10 chapters
just all in disarray of like, I

962
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:07,200
don't know how to organize that
yet 'cause it's still annoying.

963
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,240
It's.
Annoying.

964
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:12,800
Yeah, yeah, I know that very
well.

965
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,200
And you won't know.
I mean, I, I don't think you

966
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,760
can.
You, you, you can't.

967
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,760
And you wouldn't want to try to
plot that out.

968
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,240
The only way you're going to
have any resolution is to keep

969
00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:29,680
writing into it and it's going
to change its shape.

970
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,040
Yeah, I mean, sorry, the
solution is just.

971
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:33,920
In the writing, it's going to
rejoin your group.

972
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,480
You have like an online group.
I was like, well, maybe if I

973
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:41,840
answer to you I would actually.
It's for, that's what it's for.

974
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:46,080
And I try, as you might remember
in my workshops, I try not to

975
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,320
prescribe solutions.
And that works for some.

976
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,200
Listen, some writing teachers
are really fantastic.

977
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:59,720
And they're, you know, able to
prescribe action for writers,

978
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,920
you know, put a car chase in Act
2.

979
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,160
And that will.
Yeah.

980
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,800
But but for some people, that
does work.

981
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,760
It's never worked for me as
either a writer or a teacher.

982
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:16,720
I believe that we can't know
what's inside other people with

983
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,440
what possibilities exist inside
each writer for their own story.

984
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,040
What we can do that is most
helpful is reflect to them

985
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:27,440
what's what's catching our
attention and where we have

986
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,640
questions.
What is pulling us out of the

987
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,680
experience?
And then it's on the writer to

988
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,760
figure out what they want to say
given that, given that

989
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,520
information.
And sometimes, often times, that

990
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,200
information is quite a surprise
because we think we're writing

991
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,600
one thing and then what's
actually appearing on the page

992
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,880
is something else entirely.
I love that.

993
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:53,520
I think when I did my TE DX
talk, I wrote it and I was so

994
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,000
proud of what I had written
because it wasn't what I

995
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,240
pitched.
And I wrote this other thing I

996
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:01,120
sent in my critique partner.
I'm like, what do you think?

997
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,120
She's like, Oh my God.
And she's been reading my work

998
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,520
for over 10 years, right?
So she's seen all sorts of

999
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,680
whatever she's like literally
the best thing you've ever

1000
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,520
written, submitted it to TEDx
and she's like, this is a great

1001
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,680
book, but this is a big zero as
a talk.

1002
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:15,320
Basically.
That's what she told me.

1003
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,840
I was like, I I, I pouted for
days, days.

1004
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,120
I was like it really I did.
I felt it was like the best

1005
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,480
thing I've ever written.
I was like, well, maybe that's

1006
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:29,960
what my memoir will be like that
my daddy issues memoir that I

1007
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:31,880
still think I'm going to
eventually write.

1008
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:36,120
Not quite yet, but you had
mentioned before we started

1009
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,840
recording and when we were just
chatting on e-mail about the

1010
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,760
concept of when do you walk away
from a?

1011
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:43,360
Piece.
Yeah.

1012
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:45,920
What's that?
Yeah, well, why?

1013
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:51,080
Would you do that?
Well, I don't think about it as

1014
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:55,560
walking away from it as much as
allowing it to be in a different

1015
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,320
form.
Like, OK, for I'll, I'll give

1016
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:00,640
you the concrete thing we were
talking about.

1017
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,240
I have been working on a memoir
literally for 20 years.

1018
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,440
The same material, which is the
foundational material of how I

1019
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,600
grew up.
Two women, well, three women, my

1020
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,680
mother, my grandmother, myself,
right in a trailer in rural New

1021
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,600
Mexico.
And what happens?

1022
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,360
Like, how did they get there?
What happens?

1023
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:27,320
It, it began as a, as a book of
reportage about the unmobile

1024
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,960
class of people who live in
mobile homes and the stigma of

1025
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:32,840
trailer trash and where that
comes from.

1026
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,760
So I did a ton of research.
I can tell you about all HUD

1027
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,240
regulations on, you know, mobile
homes.

1028
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:42,080
I can tell, I can tell you a lot
of information.

1029
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:48,040
So it was, it was going to be
weaving that, that nonfiction

1030
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:53,240
narrative about America's mobile
home situation in with my own

1031
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:58,200
personal experience.
And I Long story short, it's

1032
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,680
been many different things.
People didn't like that.

1033
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,040
They wanted the personal story
and then the personal story was

1034
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:04,600
too personal.
They wanted more.

1035
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:10,840
Anyway, it's, it's been out I
think 5 different times in

1036
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,760
various forms.
I've written on this subject.

1037
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,040
It's, it's been my obsession for
most of my life to write on this

1038
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,080
subject, but it just doesn't
work as a book.

1039
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,000
I haven't, I haven't, let me
just say I haven't been able to

1040
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:27,440
make it work as a book in my in
its current form.

1041
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,960
So what I did was I decided time
is ticking.

1042
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,920
I want to get this stuff out.
So I'm going to essentially

1043
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:42,040
eviscerate the material and and
form essays from the material so

1044
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:43,920
I've actually stack.
It or.

1045
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,480
That's an interesting quote.
I don't think so.

1046
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:52,640
I'm, I think there are lots of
maybe too many voices on sub

1047
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,240
stack that lots of really great
voices on sub stack.

1048
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,720
I don't know that I need to join
them.

1049
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,200
I don't, I don't know that I
have the wherewithal to manage

1050
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:12,400
and my be my own media producer.
So I've been publishing a

1051
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,880
different but, but that said, I
used to have a column in Medium

1052
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,680
that I, if I had an idea for
something, I'd just throw it up

1053
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:20,600
on Medium.
And I, that was satisfying.

1054
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,600
I I enjoyed that.
Recently I wrote something that

1055
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:28,000
I I really loved, so I wrote a
lot of the stuff about being a

1056
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,960
mom when my daughter was
younger.

1057
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,640
I don't write about her because
she's almost in the.

1058
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:37,280
World a teenager.
Yeah, it's a privacy thing, but

1059
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,520
I also had many miscarriages.
I end up having a hysterectomy

1060
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:45,200
that I had a lot of like
medical, like whatever my life,

1061
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:46,720
I had some life happening,
right.

1062
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,600
So I would write about all of
that and what I thought my life

1063
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,560
would be versus what it was and
whatever.

1064
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,600
And then you have the teenager
as well and there's they do that

1065
00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:00,640
push you thing right now, which
is what they should be doing.

1066
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,320
But there was a moment in the
past year where she called for

1067
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:09,160
me like I, I, I heard her like 3
year old lispy tone of voice,

1068
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,080
right?
Like that little that lisp was

1069
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,960
so cute.
And and I came running and it

1070
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:19,320
was because a field cricket had
gotten by her shoes and scared

1071
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,560
the shit out of her and she
needed me to get it out of the

1072
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,040
house.
And it was like this moment of

1073
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,520
her being so young and my
daughter is like your height.

1074
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:30,840
She's much taller than me.
And you know, it's just funny

1075
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,160
that she needed her mommy then.
So I wrote an essay about that

1076
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:35,920
and I was like, Oh my God, I
loved it.

1077
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,880
And I'm so hard.
I'm so hard on myself.

1078
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,600
I don't whatever, whatever.
And I got a beautiful rejections

1079
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:47,320
and the whole the same theme was
it was too happy, It was too

1080
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:51,280
sweet and I couldn't find a home
because people are still looking

1081
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:55,040
for more click baity headline
kind of moment.

1082
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:56,720
So I don't know where that one's
going to end up.

1083
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:02,160
But I still love it because it's
such a sweet thing to have that

1084
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,600
moment of memory going back and
forth, which is again why I love

1085
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,560
memoir.
And I've started to devour it

1086
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,200
again.
That beautiful play on exactly

1087
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:15,000
what you said of how you
remember something.

1088
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,800
Versus the maybe truth or
reality for other people.

1089
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,280
And like right in it's in that
beautiful like light.

1090
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,520
Like I won't drive and like when
it first starts getting dark, my

1091
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,280
vision's not that good at this
point.

1092
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:31,760
But something about morning
light right is illuminating and

1093
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,080
it's soft and warm even no
matter what the topic is.

1094
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:40,120
Because like again, to my right,
I have things like a three dog

1095
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:44,360
life next to me, of course, the
classic glass Castle or all the

1096
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,800
call the midwives or a good dog.
And this man writes about his

1097
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,080
pet in such a way that like my
heart was breaking 10,000 ways

1098
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,600
and I loved every second of it.
It's interesting you just

1099
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:57,720
mentioned, Sorry, did I were you
going to say more?

1100
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,000
You just mentioned Three Dog
Life by Abigail Thomas.

1101
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,400
I had the incredible pleasure of
interviewing her last year.

1102
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:10,160
She's a a goddess and an icon
and she has a sub stack and she

1103
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:11,920
puts things up on a regular
basis.

1104
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:16,640
So even though I'm not doing sub
stack, I think that's a very

1105
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:20,160
viable form for people's bell
lettres.

1106
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:25,240
You know, let's let's call it a
bell letra rather than a essay,

1107
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,920
you know, just those those
ephemeral moments of insight

1108
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,800
and.
They're so pretty.

1109
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,320
I haven't.
Yeah, I met someone.

1110
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,080
We were mine.
We are on a white water trip and

1111
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,840
we were mining for gems as you
do in North Carolina after you

1112
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:41,680
go white.
Water.

1113
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,920
I did not know that.
Yeah, it's a thing.

1114
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:47,520
I mean, you were in the
Appalachians and there is this

1115
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,320
person's name.
I hope I can say his name.

1116
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,520
I guess, Andy, you'll have to
tell me, but I wrote it down.

1117
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:57,560
His name was Enoch Frederick.
And if that wasn't the most

1118
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,720
perfect name I ever heard in my
life, I was like, I don't know

1119
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,000
is going to have that name or
how that character is going to

1120
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,920
show up somewhere.
You know, right now, Barbara

1121
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,520
Kingsolver is, is kicking
herself that she didn't have

1122
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,440
that name.
And Demon Copperhead, that is a

1123
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,040
total, Yeah.
That's an.

1124
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,360
That is an incredible name,
Yeah.

1125
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:23,760
He was cowboy mountain got boy
like he was maybe 20.

1126
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:29,680
He was very young and sweet as
pie and with the mam's butt good

1127
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:33,760
church, like all all the things
that are that part of the world

1128
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:38,200
that I think a lot of people
have opinions of or might judge.

1129
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,960
But until you're around it and
actually know how salted the

1130
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,200
earth and amazing they are,
you're missing out.

1131
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:46,400
Right.
Like go out.

1132
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,520
I think that's part of why I
like being a stranger in a

1133
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:50,600
strange land.
I like being places I probably

1134
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:55,400
have no business being and I
I'm, I like, I eat that up.

1135
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:59,880
I eat that up.
So anyway, OK, So what are you

1136
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:03,440
working on now?
And then and then we'll have to

1137
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:05,880
give you my final question, but
I want to know what you're

1138
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,680
working on now so that I can
e-mail you and be like, yeah,

1139
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:11,360
what about?
That What about that?

1140
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:17,680
Actually, I'm working on another
essay from that material about

1141
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:20,720
about having a shotgun pulled on
me.

1142
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,480
Yeah, that's what happens in the
West.

1143
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,600
Things like that happen.
Everything, everything turned

1144
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:33,160
out OK, but that that's that's
the I can hear the.

1145
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:34,920
Click.
That's the crazy thing.

1146
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:36,920
Yeah, it's so funny that you say
that.

1147
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,040
I was telling, I was just
telling Ben, my son about that

1148
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:42,720
incident.
And that's what I the click of

1149
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:44,680
the of the shotgun.
Was it 1 of?

1150
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:50,120
These was it like yes, it's one
of these and I felt, you know,

1151
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,800
all the blood leave my body at
that sound and it's.

1152
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:55,680
Even the sound when you grab a
shotgun.

1153
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:59,600
It was just, well, he was, it's
a long story.

1154
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:03,240
And then and then he was like,
then he was like, oh, sorry,

1155
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:04,560
Sam, I thought you were somebody
else.

1156
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,280
I'm like, who the fuck do you
think I was?

1157
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,840
It's a, there's an anyway,
there's a story on that.

1158
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:14,840
So that's the, that's the form,
That's the incident.

1159
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:18,720
That is the spying of an essay
because even like.

1160
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,360
The the the the the sound it
would take even to take it out

1161
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,320
like there's a sound.
I don't know if anyone else has

1162
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,120
any.
Out of a gun rack.

1163
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,000
Out of the gun.
Rack the shooting is I know

1164
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,640
again, you might not believe
this, but going to range is

1165
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,400
fine.
But yeah, it is.

1166
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,680
I love shooting metal, but
anyway, but there's like

1167
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:42,320
something to the weight and heft
and the smell of it, like it's

1168
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:44,840
got all of the things.
It's got all of your.

1169
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:50,240
The itch of lead.
Yeah, yeah, I grew up, you know,

1170
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:54,800
I grew up shooting, shooting
rifles with my, with my uncle,

1171
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:55,920
my great uncle.
Oh, yeah.

1172
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:57,600
You know, if you grew up in the
West, you have a different

1173
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:03,760
relationship to guns and yeah,
hunting and everything else.

1174
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,160
Anyway, anyway.
And So what else am I?

1175
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,440
That's so that's my personal
thing.

1176
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:13,720
And then I have a metric ton of
of work that I'm doing at any

1177
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:15,480
given moment.
I love that.

1178
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,920
I love that.
Yeah, there is a a way to make a

1179
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,920
life, you know, like all I keep
thinking about, and I'm going to

1180
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,560
throw this out there and you can
just tell me to stuff rocks if

1181
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:28,120
you don't like it.
I want to like I want to put

1182
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,840
like a little Princess crown on
top of that trailer.

1183
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,280
You grow up in your memory.
Oh.

1184
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,440
Right, because how you see it
and how I see it as like this

1185
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:43,400
root integral part of who you
are in in defining woman, right.

1186
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:48,520
Your mom was strong, yes.
Iron.

1187
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:51,240
So like my grandmother too.
In a different way.

1188
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,640
Yeah.
You're strong too.

1189
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:55,440
Yeah.
We.

1190
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:57,440
Yeah.
Yeah, I am.

1191
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,920
Yeah.
Now see, I want to like unpack

1192
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:03,920
all of that, but that would be
like another hour and a half.

1193
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:07,160
So, but, but I want like, so I
want to put a crown on it

1194
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,320
because I like, I wondered like
you wouldn't be you right if you

1195
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:12,640
didn't have all that.
Oh, a dumb.

1196
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,480
Thing to say but like I'm so
like if if we stuck you in a

1197
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:18,520
middle class like suburban,
you'd be so bored.

1198
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,040
You know, yeah, completely,
completely.

1199
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:26,240
And frankly, a trailer is where
I'll end up.

1200
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:30,720
I mean, that's the affordability
option for retirees with my

1201
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,120
level of savings.
And you know what, people,

1202
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,400
people think that I'm being
defeatist when I say that I'm

1203
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,560
actually.
They're really nice by they're.

1204
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,000
Really nice.
What are what are people talking

1205
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,640
about?
It's like I can't wait for our

1206
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,480
trailer, our mobile, our
manufactured housing.

1207
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:51,120
Look, there's a lot of them
here.

1208
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,200
And there's a lot of our
manufactured, I can't wait.

1209
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:55,720
I'm looking forward to.
It when that the part of the

1210
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:59,440
horror of the hurricane that
came through last year, it's

1211
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,120
like communities gone and those
are the homes and they've been

1212
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:04,760
there forever.
Yeah.

1213
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,600
So heartbreaking.
Well.

1214
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,480
My cousin lived one in Arkansas
and I stepped inside.

1215
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:13,040
I was like, this thing is so
huge.

1216
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:15,960
Like it was huge.
My mom it did.

1217
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,680
Matt, it's yeah, People, people
who've never been in

1218
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,840
manufactured housing, have no
idea what it's like.

1219
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:24,720
Anyway.
I can go on and on about that,

1220
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:26,240
but your audience doesn't want
to hear that.

1221
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:28,320
No, we can.
But OK, so that'll be Part 2.

1222
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:33,360
So I like to end every session
with the one question, which is

1223
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,080
if you came with a warning
label, what would it be?

1224
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:46,120
Caution makes frequent stops.
All right.

1225
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,880
Back in the day, it would have
been caution.

1226
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:53,560
Dangerous curves ahead.
Not so much anymore.

1227
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:55,040
Yes, you.
I have no.

1228
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:57,680
You are.
You're curvy.

1229
01:07:57,720 --> 01:07:59,720
It's all you own it.
It's just who you are.

1230
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:01,640
I'm curvy.
I'm taking.

1231
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:04,640
That back you're so spicy and
curvy and fiery.

1232
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:06,480
Thank you.
Delicious.

1233
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:08,440
Thank you, darling.
I like that.

1234
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,240
Like what?
Someone would call me delicious.

1235
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:11,720
I was like, what'd you just say?
What?

1236
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:14,400
Oh yes, you are delicious
actually.

1237
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:18,680
And you, unlike myself, you look
great in green.

1238
01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:21,200
It's.
Your heart chakra.

1239
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,760
I was wearing a black T-shirt
that said you matter on it.

1240
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,920
And like before I started like
my people, my woo woo energy,

1241
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:28,520
people were like, why are you
wearing black?

1242
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:30,000
Take that shit.
And I was like, oh, OK.

1243
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:32,479
Interesting.
Thank you.

1244
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:34,240
Interesting.
Someone once told me to wear

1245
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:37,040
green.
I spent like $4000 on the class.

1246
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:39,600
I thought she was going to teach
me something that I didn't know

1247
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:40,920
and she's like green looks good
on you.

1248
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:46,240
I was like. 4000 wait.
That's a whole other episode.

1249
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:48,760
We'll do that some other time.
I was going to say I just gave

1250
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,479
you that for free.
I just gave you that validation

1251
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:53,640
for free.
My God.

1252
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:55,840
Anyway.
See, when you're looking at

1253
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:57,359
something, you'll sometimes find
it.

1254
01:08:57,880 --> 01:08:59,640
You'll find it, but not with the
right people.

1255
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:02,640
Which is why I think messages
for like people who work with

1256
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:04,800
healers of any kind.
Some people are great, some

1257
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,080
people are full of shit.
But even in storytelling, right,

1258
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:11,319
there is a time and a place for
how certain people tell story.

1259
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:14,920
And you might not always love it
or whatever, but explore, go be

1260
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,640
around smart people, read Sam's
work.

1261
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:19,319
Go be around.
I want to work with you.

1262
01:09:19,359 --> 01:09:21,040
I want to tell tell everyone
like.

1263
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:26,240
Oh wait, let me just say, not
only smart be around people,

1264
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:33,200
people that you might not
consider smart, and watch them

1265
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:35,960
open up.
Watch them open your heart, you

1266
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:38,680
know, just be around people,
they'll surprise you and.

1267
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:41,359
Not people who agree with you.
Please be around people who

1268
01:09:41,359 --> 01:09:43,160
maybe be a stranger in a strange
land.

1269
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:45,840
Be a stranger in a strange land,
always.

1270
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:48,520
Yeah.
And anyway, so honey, what was

1271
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:50,720
the other question?
I, I want to know like what do

1272
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:53,359
you have?
So this will be coming out in

1273
01:09:53,359 --> 01:09:55,920
probably September, October.
Is there anything you want them

1274
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:59,960
to tune into then?
I always want people to tune

1275
01:09:59,960 --> 01:10:02,560
into our monthly bookish
program.

1276
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,080
It's on the third Friday of
every month.

1277
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:09,240
It's free, it's for everybody.
Conversations with great authors

1278
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:13,920
about interesting books.
And then, you know, I've got my

1279
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,760
own private workshop and then
you can always find me through

1280
01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:23,080
you can always find me.
I'm through the interwebs for

1281
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:25,280
that private workshop.
If you've got, if you just need

1282
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:29,600
some structure for your own
ongoing process, and you can

1283
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:34,160
also find me through Pam
Houston's literary nonprofit

1284
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:39,960
Writing by Writers, where I'd
also teach, Yeah, you get you

1285
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:43,680
got to get Pam a.
Message from your old friend

1286
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:47,480
here is that you now need to do
spoken word or an essay doing

1287
01:10:47,480 --> 01:10:51,160
dressage like how?
How do I make AI anyone who's

1288
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:54,240
listening who could do AII want?
I want someone to make that and

1289
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:56,520
put it in the comments.
Yeah, exactly.

1290
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:58,080
Exactly.
Yeah, I think.

1291
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,640
That would be so cool.
Exactly, AI.

1292
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:03,080
That's a whole other
conversation.

1293
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:04,920
Anyway, I gotta get to work.
I gotta have to.

1294
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,280
Go, you have to work.
So everyone love you listening

1295
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,120
to the Holly Hughes podcast.
I will see you soon and until

1296
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:13,440
then we'll be free.
Yay.