The Man Behind Mad Men Tells All: Emmys, Streaming, and How Hollywood Really Works | Dwayne Shattuck

0:10 So welcome to the Holly Hughes podcast today. I'm very excited. I feel really honored to have Dwayne Shattuck here today because he's a man who went from set medic to studio head. He's won multiple Emmys, Golden Globes, DGA PGA Awards. He's run 2 studios and he claims to be getting ready to retire, which is why I think I have this golden opportunity to chat with him. So welcome to my show, Dwayne. I shouldn't say actually retire. It's like as they say, old producers don't retire, they just fade away. You know you can't fade out. Eventually you do less and less projects until no one knows where the hell you are anymore. That's kind of more the way it works. It's not run away.

0:53 Never. Actually quit. Yeah. We never give up and say OK, that's it, I'm done. OK, I'll I'll make sure we know that so anyone who's wanting Dwayne, he's just he's just saying that he might have more opportunity for you now as he shifts gears. He's shifting gears, though. I would like to say that I reached out to you because we worked on like was AB movie. Nowadays, what do we call those? But it was. Yeah, back. In Brutal Dark Side of Jaden, yes. OK, yes. Back in the day, but Fade and Papa Michael, who also went on to win like an Academy Award, he was like the DP and director on that. You and I have also other strange things in common that I bet you would have no idea because again, it's at the beginning of your career. Like I remember you had like long blonde hair. Yeah, I used to have long hair and back back in the ponytail back when we had a lot more here. OK, so how did you go from set medic to DGA? Let's look at.

1:49 There's no Direct Line there, Just say it. No, there never is. You know, people in how I say like people end up in this industry for various reasons. Some people fail upwards into it and I think I had a director tell me one time I said there's something about how he got in the industry and he goes, well, I've been fired from every real job I've ever had. So I end up in the it's kind of like the island of misfit toys. You end up here, you can't get hired in the real world. You end up in the film industry somehow. My background was I'd started out, I was at a fire department paramedic and it was during the let's see started about 7980812. It just was a time when it just the crack and epidemic. So I went rampant and we just got unbelievably busy all the time.

2:33 So I ended up hurting my back just 20 or 4 hours a day of straight running calls. I think I ended up lifting too many stretchers and, and pulling people out of cars and whatever. And really I was in a lot of pain. And so my partner had gone off me said hey, do you want to work on a movie? And I was like, yeah, well what do you have to do? And he's like nothing. You just sit around and do absolutely nothing for 12/14 hours a day. And I think he said paid 800 to 1000 bucks a week. And I was like, really sign me up. So I started doing that. I started working on movies. Manas a set medic, you really are just there for for security and union reasons. And if anything really bad happens, you're going to call 911 anyways. But you're the first one there and the last one to leave. So it's long day.

3:16 It's really, really boring. And I said one day I was working for I was doing a, a Michael Mann miniseries and I was working with an AD older guy. His name was Bronco Lustig, and Bronco, he was probably in his 60s. Then he went on to Purdue Schindler's List and won an Academy Award for it. But he used to sit and come sit during lunch under a tree. One day we were doing these big stunts and I came over and sat next to him and he goes, you look bored. What do you want to do? And I said, I want to do what you do, Bronco. So he said, well, I'll tell you what, I'll bring you on my shows as APA and get all your days to get in the Directors Guild that way and get all your union debt work as set medics slash PA. So I did that, which is really lucky. So I got my 300 or 405. I don't even know what it was days. I went into the second AD, got my days and then went up to a first AD and then as then UPM stayed UPM forever. UPM slash producer usually do that. I've done a couple shows where I was both want to keep the benefits going on the DGA side of Directors Guild. So you know, always kind of keep that one going too. And it's become standard that if you're a line producer even, you get Directors Guild benefits just so you stay current and get your health insurance and all that fun stuff because it's much better than, you know, going freelance outside world. So, yeah, so that's pretty much it. And then kind of clawed my way up the food chain. I have to say, you make it sound so easy. You're like, yeah.

4:35 So like I met this guy and he was like, yeah, I think, you know, personality wise, you are, you are calm in a sea of. I honestly, my sister who's an actress, was for years, was really a good working actress. She was kind of every television series. Yeah, I know she was. I was going to ask if you ever hired her, if that helped at all. She. Kind of said one day she had told me she was like, well, I was a medic. She says, you know, I was sitting on the set, I was watching the first AD and I was like, you'd be great at this because you know, you've got the background of just being calm under fire and dealing with situations. And as a first AD, you know, I'm, I still do that even when I'm going to set I or anywhere I'm listening, I'm talking to somebody, I'm listening and I'm hearing someone else and what's going on.

5:20 I'm paying attention to what's going on over here at the same time. And it's kind of like same thing you do as a medic. You know, when you go, you're assessing the situation, the surroundings, trying to think ahead of what might possibilities that could happen, trying to think of everything so you can brace yourself and prepare for these kind of things. You get into producing a show or approaching managing, you know, we always say we spend a lot of time think, trying to think of like what scenarios, what could happen, what could go wrong, what could happen. You know, we'll come up with a bunch of different scenarios and, and we'll run, you know what I call stress tests even on fine 'cause it's all about money always and time is money. So I'm always about running, you know, with my finance people. And I do this still to this day with my shows and my finance team is, you know, run tests on what, how much would it cost if this happened?

6:04 What happened if this happens? And sure as hell, every time something comes out of the blue that you think, you said, I've seen it all and you're like, shit, I never would have thought of that. But anyways, yeah, so it's always, you're still always learning and never, you're never. That's Murphy's Law filmmaking, you know? Yeah, I like to tell people, one of my first producing jobs, I was on the Sony lot. I had this big famous DP, right? You know, DPS like to always test me. Like I don't know if men get as tested as women. Like do you know this equipment? Someone tried to order the wrong equipment. I'm like that's lug to pin. And I had to go through all the stuff. Yes, I know what I'm doing. But that day my location manager showed up late, an hour and a half late because he was drunk. My grip truck was stuck in reverse. And then my Technocrane went down and I was like. OK.

6:48 Are we going to sell salvage this? Because like, you know, time is money and everything costs and you know the meters running you. Know I had kids on that day too. I had two kids. I was like, Oh my. God, yes, you're figuring all that kind of stuff. It's constantly, you know, it's a lot of work when you're involved in it and you know, and if you're doing a show as a producer or in a production manager even, you know, I'd say it's like everyone else gets off. What do you do this weekend? We're going to go do. I'm like especially on location. I'm like, it's seven days a week for me guys. I'm, you know, on the weekends I have cast and crew and five, getting people new hired and fired and cast flying in and out and it's seven days a week. So what? Would you stick through it? Well, the longer you're in this business, there's nothing else you can do. You know, I'm responsible for millions and millions of dollars, but I can't go get a job at a bank. So I tell people, it's like, you want to get in this industry, that's fine.

7:35 But you just realize that the longer you're in it, you're unemployable in the real world. You're going to be stuck here. So there's nothing else you can really do. That is kind of true. Like when you leave all those people who I thought were friends, who I used to help get work all the time, they're like, oh wait, you left. Peace out, girl. Like I don't, I don't need you. I don't know. You anymore people that managed to get out alive? Yes, yes, get out of the trenches alive. Did you ever want to direct? You know what, it's funny, I never did. I've certainly directed enough with the first time directors that needed their help, you know? And then you, there's always that situation, especially when you're on set. It's the first AD where you work and experience director and we've all had those direct DPS directions, photography, who or armchair, you know, directors themselves and want to be and they're going to sit there and undermine the drill. He don't know what he's doing or, you know, it's like, oh God, and you got to get in between that and then kind of help him along.

8:29 And then you realize it's like, what do you you know, I've had people visit, I want to come visit you on set, you know, especially when it was the first day. I'm like, really, I like, no, I'll come spend the day. I'm like, no, no, you won't want to be there all day, you know, So they come out there. And so I had a friend one time, went back and told my someone to my family or friends. Like, how was it? He lasted about two hours and he's like, I don't know everyone. There's just a lot of people sitting around doing nothing. And then all of a sudden something will happen. People get moving around, then they go back and sit down again. And then all what Dwayne does is pretty much just yell at people and make them do things and keep it moving. And I said, yeah, you just understand that if I didn't have time frames and I said, look, this is the way it works. I said, what is the first AD do? It's like I wasn't there. The director would block, come up with some ideas and DP would light all day, keep tweaking things.

9:13 So finally it was time to go home and they were ready to go home. We'd never actually roll camera. We'd never shoot if I don't pray, if I wasn't there saying, how long do you need? Mr. DP, you 15 minutes. OK, 15 minutes is up. We're rolling. We're going to roll. They would just keep tweaking with stuff all day and eventually we'd just go home. No one would never actually roll any shoot any film. I actually remember you saying saying that I have I I have the image of your the wrist with like back in that movie forever and I go, but you were still kind of cool and my take of you, because I think I had been at Chanticleer films for a while. So like I had gone through like a Crucible of fire over there is very interesting dynamic and they didn't like it when you left. So they wouldn't help you get work and they kind of like sabotage you.

9:56 So I was like, OK, whatever, but you seemed pretty loyal to like your second at the time. My second a day who I've worked with or ever did every probably every show I ever did as a first AD and then as a production manager. He did a couple of first things too. He actually died of cancer a few years ago. But but anyways, yeah, he was with me. Oh God, we traveled the world. We were in the Philippines, Thailand and Mexico. God, I mean Europe we've shot. I mean we were all over the world filming stuff. So yeah, that movie Dark Side of genius, Faden Pat Michael was the DP but he was actually directing. But he was really you paying and then he gave the credit to Chris Feluna, who was his gaffer for years and Chris is one of those guys. It's just hilarious.

10:37 And I've worked with Chris several times. I haven't talked to him in years, but he had, you know, like 6 kids. I don't know whatever. He's always got to work. And so we actually went off the night beared a series in Hawaii, North Shore, and he was the on that and he was the kind of guy it's like trying to keep him quiet because he gets he gets going and gets everybody laughing so much on set that you got to like calm everybody down and somebody shut up. So we can roll because everyone he's just constantly cracking everyone up and saying these great, just great attitude. But anyways, I actually I met Chris on that it's. Amazing little spot. Like does that kind of thing happen anymore? Because there is no such thing as pilot season.

11:18 There really isn't like the B movie. So how like I I met someone recently who was graduating from film school and I have a whole lot of opinions about that. Please don't go to film school. Please just don't go to Business School and then learn. But how do you break in? Like how like if you're creating? I don't know now, I mean, I was talking to my second command, my company the other day and we're talking about this and he's like, you know, he's 40 and just at the point he's got two small kids and the industry is a mess right now. And he's like, I got 20, at least 25 more years to go. I don't know what I'm going to do. You know, it's just people are calling me all the time and you know, and I get phone calls all the time.

11:59 People are not working anymore. I've worked for years. Like I'm losing my house and industry. It's like it's really, really hard right now. And it's like I said, I think my, I was lucky I got in the business the right time when there was just so you could just you, you know, I mean, there were times even when I was a medic where I would go show up on a show and then realize after I've had breakfast and I'm on the wrong show. So like, no, no, you're supposed to be on Black Rain. They're then on the next hill over. It's Karen. Like you see about 15 people get up, take their place, go, you know, we're on the wrong show. Never. Heard that it was crazy, I mean. Downtown LA, people used to fight over walking channels because you couldn't get up frequency because there's so many Joe shooting at every corner. And that was the days when you couldn't afford to leave LA, right? So you made everything.

12:42 You made New York in LA, you made Europe. You put sand down you whatever you had to do because you couldn't afford to leave the town. Leave town. That was for tax incentives. So you had to make California and that's why they built back lots of New York and all this stuff because you couldn't afford to live here, leave here, shooting anywhere else. So it worked out really well. And then as the movie industry started going around and I had gotten married and had kids and I'm like, I don't want to travel that much anymore, so I'll, I'll do more television. And then television ended up leaving. So I had to leave, move around. The last show that I produced production, it was Magic City in Miami. And that was, you know, a year time of my life full time in Miami. And, you know, I had kids back home and my wife's trying to work as well. And it was just really brutal.

13:27 So after that, I was like, I, I can't do this anymore. And so someone offered my actually, my agent said there's a company looking for someone in house to run production for them. Would you be interested in talking to them? And I said, yeah, someone talked to him. I said I'll give it six months. Well, then, you know, and 12 years later, here I am, you know, but it's been good, which is great because as having come from having worked for so many different studios and having people in my position, what I do now and calling them with a problem and they go, well, you know what your budget is, figure it out. I'm like, yeah, you're a big help. I'm best friends with the producers. I'm like, look, you need somebody to call at 2:00 on Friday, Saturday morning and you're too numb to think straight.

14:07 And I don't care how dumb you think the idea is, you need somebody to bounce it off and call me. I'm always answering my phone. I'll talk to you. I've been there. I understand it. So I'm always best friends with the crew, with the people crew wise that I hire on shows and I'm and I am the person who does make those decisions to go. I'm producer particularly is and also over, you know, I got veto rights over the directors. They want to pick to a point. I'm like, if I'm going to be responsible for the budget and for the series and I'm now done. I don't know, 20 series and knock on wood, I've never, I mean I've never had a single one go over. But so that's a good accomplishment because most of the big, big ones, like if you're in Amazon and Netflix and stuff, they all go over budget. They just spend spending.

14:48 Do they care? I don't run, I run it. They do to a point. I mean, they can't help it because they don't know how to stop it. Where I'll like, I'll get together and brainstorm with the producers and say, look, you know, it's always, obviously it all comes from the writing and cast and whatever. And there's always ways to figure it out and run different scenarios. And so we kind of work it through the problems and try to figure it out. Same thing when I was doing Mad Men for years. You know, we went, we had a kind of a different philosophy there. We didn't have any money on that show. Was because there's AMC like where did it start? AM C. AM C Yeah, It was an AMC show. They shot the pilot originally in New York and couldn't get anybody to pay for it financially. Used a little commercial company to hire, and they basically, you know, overcharged them. So part of the deal was I was doing another series in Arizona for Lionsgate at the time, and I got a call from the head of production of Lionsgate and said, hey, we got this pilot. I don't know if it's any good or not. We've seen it.

15:43 It's kind of, you know, whatever. And but it's, it's going to get picked up. And they couldn't get anybody to produce it or pay. So we're getting everything on this series. Only thing AMC is getting is the rights to air it live. We're getting everything else. It's Lionsgate. And they're the producer and writer who is Matt Weiner has been living in New York writing for The Sopranos for the last four or five years. And part of the deal was if he comes here, wants to pick up the show and he's it's got to shoot in Los Angeles, would you be 1 to talk to him? So they flew out here. I met with them. They said, look, we don't know anybody here. You have to put together a whole crew, everything, hire everything. We don't know you know anybody here. So I was like, great, I can do that. So I literally just cherry picked all my favorite, best people that I've worked with for years who all pretty much stayed on the whole time.

16:26 And yeah, we, yeah, we did the show 7 day episodes the first season with very, very little money. No one was making any money on the series. Was it like a 3,000,000 an episode kind of thing or less? 2. Shut up. Yeah. Yeah, 2.2 Yeah, no money, seven day episodes. And and they oh, and they were gonna bring a lot of the crew from Sopranos who had unlimited money and spending. And it's like, but it really worked out well because everyone's best friends. So they just would like it's almost like family. They would just go, no, you know, it's good. That just had to be below the line that was not above the. Line that's an entire budget and so yeah we're in LA center studios so that's why I mean the show I. Can't even do that. Leave the stage.

17:08 I mean, we couldn't couldn't afford to go out anywhere much unless we saw so we really produced it where you know, they we had directors who were on same people. Some people came up from within directed and you know, we want if we had to leave the stage, most of the time we would shoot, we would shoot around that, we would shoot downtown LA, but we wouldn't even move trucks. We just put everybody in crew vans and drive down there in a. State pair. Oh my God, I love that. Money. Yeah. That's why we were all on the stage all the time. So we did seven day episodes, but it was the way we shot that show. It was very old fashioned. It's always on a Dolly, always on 2 cameras with gear heads, never. No steady Cam, no funky stuff. Everything was a Dolly move and then I'd push in or I shot man with it on to the next scene.

17:54 So we were literally doing 11 hour days the first season, seven day episodes. But the actors also were great. I am trying to wrap my like, first of all, as I worked at spelling for years, I think we typically had three million about a week. We did seven day episodes as well, but that was mostly below the line that wasn't always above. So for people who aren't in film and TV, above the line is cast. It's like all the very famous, it's all the people you're watching, the writers, the executive producers, it's them. And below the line is the crew, the people that you never know and those names that go really fast on credits that we work really hard to get up there. But I mean, it makes me like this show more. So I also scoured the Internet and I saw not one direct quote from you. By the way, you are quiet.

18:39 I don't know if you if you scrub the Internet, but I want to, I want to give you your credit right here. The funny thing was a weird thing about it all. It's like no one was prepared to what happened the first season when there was a lot of fighting and with AMC and between Lions Gate and stuff and you know, budgets and what we're going to spend and just, you know, a second season, whether it's going to get picked up or not. And we were going to hold the stages. That kind of stuff was not free. Of course, with the set, with this main set on, we kept one stage and all that stuff. But there was after the first year that was in the writers strike happened. So the Emmys, there was no Emmys. We literally went to the Chateau Marmont and and rented the suite on the top floor that has the balcony.

19:21 And it was just us, our people to cast some Lionsgate people and we sat and watched it being announced on TV and they read off the awards and they were like 1 madman. We got to I think we got 22 Emmys and we were like, just kind of like what it was like, you know, but we're all alone. So we were up there, you know, we wasn't any Emmy Awards, anything like that. So after that, it just became kind of the surreal thing that, you know, the yeah, that it just all of a sudden it came, you know, I had, well, you know, all of a sudden fame, I guess came strange knocking. Like I had a couple of people show up in my door in the middle of the night and things like that. You know, I end up putting in security cameras and the gates and there were some bunch of conspiracy theorists stuff on the Internet about my family and me and all this stuff because some of the relatives in my family are in public service.

20:11 So it was just kind of this craziness. I don't know. Yes, they did. Oblisi did a good job about going on there and removing things that were true, sort of, and keeping it down. And I was like, look, I don't need to be out there doing interviews and stuff. I don't. I never did. I know, but that's that's unique. Let's let's talk about the LA Eagle, right. You know, like it's not like you're, you can't be in your job and not be a leader. And I can even see looking at you now, I could like feel the 15 thoughts that you're going through your head. And what do I do this with what I do that? I mean, I had that weird thing happen to me when I wrote that essay about what happened to me on the set of Election when I got thrown on the table and dry humped in front of the crew and it got published before I edit it like, so I had just pitched and they're like, yes. And then usually you go back and forth and. Funny thing on on, for instance, use mad Matt wants to talk about that way.

21:05 So Matt Weiner is was very loyal to his people on the show and very secretive about stuff. We had to sign non disclosure forms about things. So I never look, I've had people call me about when to interview me. They're writing books about the show. Want to know some juicy behind the scenes gossip things. I'm like, no, you know, I got I got tons of stuff, but you're never going to hear it. So not for me, you know, he was big about that. So the crew and all the people that I and I were real protective of the show. I mean, script wise, you know, nothing got out. But every person, even down to a grip, read the scripts. And if Scooter the grip, which happened one time, Matt Weiner asked him what he thought of something in the script they just written. And he said, well, I didn't understand that. And then Matt flipped, runs back to his office and has to like work all weekend because he's like, like, please just tell him you liked it.

21:54 You know, let him because it's like the guy worked 24 hours, seven days a week. So we we had to put a special air conditioner because they shut the power off on the weekends at La Center Studios so he could stay there and work around the clock and sleep on his couch because that's the way he worked, you know? Yeah. You know, it was a very protective group and so, and very secretive about things, including all the way to the ending of the show, what's going to happen. But everybody was very protective of it. I like that it's rare. Yeah, and the no cameras, yeah, like nobody took. There was never any taking pictures on the set. I mean, I have a few, but they're just, you know, things that. But I remember seeing you up getting when you did get to go on stage to get your Emmy, you were like in the back, like you're you're. You're strong stood behind, you know. Yeah, I wouldn't mad to be in the obviously in the front and then the cast and then, you know, I kind of like kind of a stand back where, you know, I'm not like in the very front. Some of it, you know, I mean, there are there were other award shows and things that we came up and awards that, you know, were more personal that I was there for and you know that. And and then I did do several things like when the Directors Guild awards came out and we won, I don't know, a couple years that I don't even remember how many, you know, that I would speak in the Directors Guild.

23:04 They asked me to do things. So I did things like that. And publicly through the my own union and, you know, the Directors Guild, I went go and the things and speak about the show and things then. But other than that, yeah, I just kind of like, I'm not like the guy that's going to be out there, you know, in the front. Makes you you I I like that. Actually respect that. I have. As a former coordinator, I have one burning question ready. Why aren't coordinators put into the DGA? You mean production coordinators? Because they're in the IA. But they're not, you know, They're the redheaded stepchildren. I know it's a shitty position to be in. I mean, they've never had a rate. They were always IA, but it was negotiable unless it's a commercial. I think they finally made.

23:45 The problem with that is they're lumped in with script supervisors and who's the other one in the So the script supervisors get all the love and they're, you know, and they get the sloppy seconds or whatever. It's just like it's always been a shitty place to be and you can move out of it and just script into production supervisor. And then maybe some of them people have gone in and I have a couple of people I have worked with who were coordinators with me who are now producing shows, production managing shows, one being the Jason Momoa show in Hawaii. Sarah Donahue, she's a production manager on that. She was a coordinator for me and she clutter way out of that mess and got into see it's. So hard, it's so hard. I, I always thought as a coordinator I was like, let me see, I'm work.

24:27 I'm doing all the negotiating for my production manager who doesn't really want to do it right. And then I'm training the DGA trainee and I'm checking all his paperwork. Can I just like somehow? Slip. Yeah. All little details. Yeah. And you catch all the crap everyone comes in your office and bitches about. You know, the grips like I'm. And then. No, I'm sorry you got denied. Sorry. Dwayne was cheap. He only give you half of what you wanted. Totally like go talk to the accountant, go talk to the accountant. I don't know, I think you also have the ability like when I did do my own small independent things, I always had a thing about I always wanted to learn about a specific part of the crew. Like I want to make sure I knew what they were doing and I understood it. But there's, there are two schools and I don't know if they, if this is still the way it was. The people like probably like you and a few other people that I work for who taught me how to make people want to work for you, right?

25:15 Because I respected them, I understood them. And you give a little, you get a lot more instead of being stingy. And then there's the people who just think a horrible atmosphere makes a good product. No, it doesn't work that way for me. I always tell people and I hire them. It's like, I'm going to, you know, first thing I do in my Purdue line, producers or whatever, I let them know what the studio deal is, something that I was never Privy to because you always think, oh, they're just, they got more money in that, but they're just trying to be cheap and save money so they can get a bonus or whatever the hell it is. And I was like, no, I tell them they're like, wow, no one's ever actually told me that. I'm like, yeah, here's the thing. On this show, we're making $5,000,000 an episode, say after. But if we go over budget, it comes out of that money. So anything we spend, you know, which is a very common thing when you're kind of middleman producing for say, Netflix, Amazon, all these other companies, right?

26:01 So that helps. They go, oh, we get it, we're better at it. And then also, I was always like, look, I can't pay you this much. I didn't pay you this much or here's why, you know, And they're like, oh, because normally everybody just goes, now here's a, you know, rate or here it is. That's all there is. But I never tell you why, you know, and I'll say, look, I got to spend money over here on this or this is costing me more, whatever. And you know, it's kind of it helps. I mean, he doesn't always make ease of paying completely. But you know, depending on the budget you're in, the last few years has been so busy that it was hard to find crew for anything. And you would call people up and they're like, well, I got five other offers. How much over scale you willing to pay me? Well, boy, those times have changed. All those people that got in the industry thinking this was going to do, this is the way it's going to work.

26:45 It's going South. You have you have your hand in reality TV too at ITV, no? ITV reality in a business, biggest reality producer in the world. I think overall, but I don't have any do a reality. No, I'm just I believe talkies scripted. That's fun because I'm like, my thing is like I stepped away more during when reality started. I was like, because you're not paying us. I have like 15 years of experience. You want me to work? For work and they still don't make any money. I got to do, you know, The thing is I got to do 1520 shows to have the same profit that we can make on one series, you know, so they, they don't make money on these things much and it's gotten less like everything else, you know. All right, so is LA dead, do you think? Like are you are, is your stuff all over? It's pretty bad.

27:29 I mean, look, things can always turn around. What's happened is it was really good for a while. Obviously the streaming wars were going on Amazon and Apple and Netflix is like who could outspend each other? Everybody was spending like drunken sailors and suddenly all of a sudden Netflix, you know, they were make, they were using their stock just kept going up with no way to ever show a profit. They said finally, uh oh, we got to start showing a profit somehow. So they started an ad tier. Now they're kind of picking it up, but everyone has cut way back on their spending. You know, Apple and Amazon really got into the industry. I started making TV shows and movies. I mean, look, if Apple's net profit last year was 450 million billion dollars, whatever the hell it was, you know, and they go out and spend, you know, half a billion dollars on making some TV shows, big deal. What is it about?

28:16 It's about, OK, if you get Amazon, you get this for free. Apple is about driving. People don't buy Apple just to watch the shows. I mean, it's part of the package you get. It's about driving the people to buy more Apple products, buy other things. Right now, they're like I said, the streaming wars have kind of come to an end and I don't know what their plan is. A lot of the folks have left. They've downsized these companies hugely production wise and people that are there are scared to make real commitments. Everyone's kind of like looking over the shoulder, like, what's next? And this is now been going on for a couple years. Obviously the cost of making shows is gone, extremely gone up high. You know, Netflix, you know, started paying ridiculous amounts of money to actors and writers and stuff. And everybody would go, oh, and Netflix, I'm like, I don't care what Netflix is doing.

29:02 That's great. That's only Netflix. And then Apple started doing. Then Amazon had to do it. Now they're kind of in this pull back and let's see what happens and wait it out. And obviously money costs more to borrow too. We have to run scenarios like where is the cheapest place we can shoot this show? Is it Bangladesh? Is it, you know, Canada? I mean, Canada ends up being a for the most part a pretty good deal. And so it's not usually always up to us. It's about a bottom line of what we're going to green light for us to pay. And obviously the networks want to pay as little as possible. So where are we going to make the most amount of money? How are we going to make to stay in business? I think probably overall, I think last time we looked, I think compared to the height, they're making somewhere 25 to 3030% of what they were making them show television movies then. So there's a lot of people unemployed. That's crazy.

29:50 So was there ever a show that you developed? Like was there an idea or like a writer that you liked or anything like that? Did that ever like come across your world or you were just trust the process? No, I kind of always was a gun for hire. I mean, look, we all have creative ideas and stuff. And the weird thing is, and back in the pilot days, even when the network pilots and I would do a network pilot and I'd read a script and I'd be like, wow, this is a really good script. And then you go and do it and it just doesn't work out as well or you do it. The ones we always funny thing was the ones that were always the most biggest disaster were the ones that seemed to always pick that got picked up and even I'm like, Oh, you know, I'll do this, but the righties not that good, and those are the ones that get end up getting picked up. You know what Spelling used to have us do? They would have us running a show, right? Like let's say, what was it like Malibu Shores? Like something that did get picked up? I'll use that as a we were doing that, but I also had to work on the pilots so they didn't have to double pay me. He's like, they're like, well, you have the time, you're in the office, you're here.

30:47 I was like, OK, thanks. Yeah, I mean, we would always, and I do this always too. It's pretty standard before, you know, K say you shoot a oil pilot, then you want to have an episodic budget because they're going to want to know what this going to cost, right? So you're kind of guessing because you don't have scripts written yet. So you're kind of like, let's see $6 million, you know, a kind of guess somewhat, but it's easier in the last during rap in the first season, even if you don't have a second season picked up, you always have them do run it, you know, figure out and come up with a budget for a season 2 with all the increases and everything in. There. What is this season now? Is it 22 episodes? Is it 9? Like how does it work now? There's not a pilot well. When it used to be 22, it was you know, you did the 1st 12:00 and then you got it back 9, which is in the street because then you got to amortize over you said. So it's like woo, lots of money on the back nine. Well, that's that went down to twelves that went down to 10 to 12 episodes soon to be standard.

31:38 Then it's 10, now it's 8. I mean, and yeah, I mean, I'm not network. I don't know what the hell network's doing. I mean, networks are hardly doing anything. I'm. Talking. I don't watch that anyway, it's fine. Any series on Netflix or anything it's they're 8 episodes. The cost of doing 8 episodes is as much as it used to cost to do 22. Honestly, you know the cast costs above the line that just everything's more expensive, right? It's inflation. So what it costs us, you do 12. Now we can only afford to do 8. Do they make more money when they release them in like the three episodes that they do? Is that like a you know what, what, what is that strategy? Why is this, you know, why does sometimes they release 1 episode a time? 1 is the geniuses with the giant brains at these networks who think of this stuff, have these plans, and whether they really know what the hell they're doing or not.

32:24 I don't know. Sometimes. Most of the shows that we're seeing now, it's like all the shows are in the can. By the time we air the first episode, you know that we'll write all the scripts and then write and then shoot all the episodes before they even air. Where we used to shoot an episode and be writing the next one while it's airing, It was like that. Just churn over like that. It would just churn and burn. Now it's no, we want to see all the scripts written. Do we know where we're going? Before we even decide we're going to green light the series, we'll pay and write all the scripts. So it's very weird. I mean, sometimes they'll say we're going to dump all episodes at once. Sometimes I'll say one a week. Lately the thing you'll seeing is the first 3 or 4 episodes and then one a week after that. I think it all has to do with what else they have and what their numbers are looking like.

33:09 They're very guarded about the viewership numbers. Like networks. You know, the old days, they would release everything at once, right? And people could be like, oh, this show set up for four days straight, watching all 10 episodes. Jay COVID. Jay COVID. Exactly. I wish I could tell you more about the reasoning for this, the way they're working these days, but I'm sure they have some inkling of why. But I think it really has to do with, you know, competition or what else isn't they have or who else is releasing what at the same time. Well, what I find like fascinating listening to you is that like you seem to have found the way to straddle being a creative producer while being a numbers guy, right? And maintaining will air quote sanity on a set because that's really rare.

33:54 Usually you get stuck as one or the other or negated because they think if you know how to run numbers you don't know how to be creative and problem solving to get that on in the can or whatever they do get. Back to me at 2:00 AM on a Saturday morning at ripping up for five days. You'll see different me a little more. I prefer this one thing. I'll take the one who's smile who's. Been here out, you know, popping amphetamines, chain smoking, whatever the hell it takes to stay away. My problem on sets was, you know, people want to talk to you and of course there was food there. So I'm like, OK, let's go stand around craft service table and I'll graze while talking to somebody and stressing out while I'm trying to, you know, listen to their problems, things like that. So I always you just have to keep as a production manager, I'm not so much as a producer, but as a production manager of someone else. Another production manager told me when I first moved up to production managing was never stand in one place too long. They would come up and think of things. They'll stand there and start shuffling their feet and they'll think of something to ask you for. So he goes, as long as you just keep moving and you're like a shark, then they'll, they'll won't feed on you if you, he said, if you stay along one place or like seagulls picking the seaweed on a beach, she'll just, they'll start coming around just pecking at ya.

35:02 So you're like, OK, I'll be, I'll be with you in a minute. I'll be right back, you know. But on the other. Hand That's Milwaukee. It's Milwaukee. I gotta go. On the other hand, I said, you know, when I went from first day being to production manager, I was like, holy shit, these days are long because the first day of day you're always like, Oh my God, it's already new. Oh my God, it's already 3. The production manager. I'm like, Oh my God, it's only 10 AM and I've already dealt with, you know, I'm already daunted and all this shit I've already been hit with. And then we used to say also in shows, it's like any day, any moment or on a set hour when I'm bored, I go, God, I'm kind of bored. And you're like, Oh, no, don't. Say that, don't say that. If you're bored, that means you're not around putting out fires. That means everyone's doing their job. Everything's going well. You know, the studio's not calling, asking what the Hell's going on, why you're so behind anything like that.

35:43 Yeah. And so it's an interesting thing. Yeah. Once you're bored, you realize that. Yeah, that everything's good. Everyone's, every. All the children are tucked in neatly and doing their jobs and. It scares you. I when I had my daughter, I was older, shockingly because I was in entertainment rights and I was like, I went from being on set 250 people asking for things and eating things to me not being able to manage a single crying infant. It was such a reality change and I was like, what? What happened? There's a famous in my family picture of me. I'm coming home on a Saturday morning. I think it was on Mad Men or I said all night, shoot on Friday night. And I'm sitting on the couch and I have a Scotch in my hand and I'm like this. And I'm passed out and both my boys are little.

36:25 They're one's probably 5 and one's 8. And they're like holding toys, like sticking against my face, like smiling at the camera, like making fun of me. And I'm like dead with a Scotch in my hand. It's like I didn't even make, I didn't even make it to 1 sip. I was just passed out. I want to see that picture, I think. I think that one should be up on the Internet. No kidding. Keep your family private. I'm also I was going to say I'm pretty impressed that you have a long term marriage and a family. This is rare like so is it cuz she's amazing or what's up? More than once yeah so my kids are at the point now well let's see once goes forth going in medical school so I and I have another one that's in so yeah they're.

37:06 So you can't retire because of that? Let's be real. Come on. Yeah, well, there's, well, yeah, my youngest one who's in doing, he wants to get into psychology. He wants to be a doctor. So he's got, he's working on now his masters. He's getting a double something wrong. I don't even know what the hell it is. So he calls me the other day and he's like, my profession was telling me that if I get this and I do this, he can get me into Harvard Medical School. And I'm like, oh, great. I'm just like, what's that cost? That's impressive. There's like no but long term. So would you ever let them be in the business if they wanted to be? Like would you ever have let them be child actors? They one of them wants to do something creative. Wyatt does not. He wants to be a psychiatrist or whatever because I have family that's all in that industry too.

37:48 On the other side, my sisters. But anyway, so if one of them wants to do some creative, but more in graphics carts and stuff, not on the set. I mean, they used to come visit me on Mad Men when they were little and you know, the camera crew, like put them up on the camera and let them shoot a shot, you know, a locked off shot. They'd be like, OK, that's enough. They were like, could we find Duke, the truck transfer coordinator because he's got a golf cart? We just want to go drive the golf cart around the lot. We're like, OK, so they would literally spend the next six hours zooming around the golf cart on this on the back lot. You know, that's all they want to do. They want to do everything on the set, so yeah, they weren't impressed. So you had the family life. This is the quote I wanted to say that I found about you. You would try to avoid it. But it's my show.

38:28 I get to go back to it. It says you are credited with being an integral part of the ITV Studios success because of your leadership and breaking Capelli stories to life and like listening to you. Absolutely. I think they sum that up really well. Who's in the PR department? Like why do they like you so much? Like what's going on with that? You know, I have to say my deal when I start. I said look, I've never worked corporate before. I said look, when this came up and I said look, I'll go give it six months and try this and I deal investigating of these people I was working for and I heard great things about them. My bosses, people that work with are all great. I mean, the company is everything from the legal down is what do you call open door policy.

39:10 It's like we all cover for no one stabs each other in the back, other studios, places, yeah, comes from the top being very, very good to everyone, very supportive, 100% everyone who helps each other, Everyone works with each other. Everyone goes. If I got a problem, you go in that person's office and talk to them about it. We all work out problems together. It's been a great, great experience. It wasn't, I would have gone back probably to the trenches of producing shows of my, you know, or what out there on that. So they've been really, really great about that. So I've, I've been blessed with working for a great company who with really good people. And you know what, we only hired good, other people only hire good people. And then under me, I hire good people that I've worked with that, you know, I try to hire people who actually worked in production. Matter of fact, my senior vice president of production used to be a production coordinator.

39:59 So he's been, he's been through the shit. So. I don't know. Men move out of the position so much faster. If a girl gets stuck, you're stuck. The boys get out. Yeah. He's. Like I get even they went to work for AMC that he's working for me. He's worked for me for five to six years now, something like that, maybe longer, you know, But yeah, I know he's like, so he under he gets it. He knows what goes on and said he knows what goes on in the office, production office. You know, it's not just someone who sits on it. We don't sit in an ivory tower. And you know, we're, we're best friends with the productions and help them out and work with them through all their problems instead of just going, you know what your budget is, figure it out. It's the most annoying thing. It's the most annoying.

40:39 I know I always wanted to jump into like spelling corporate because I worked with, I worked there for like 3 years for different shows and stuff. And I was like, can I jump up? They're like, yeah, there's no space, man. We have, we have our people. I was like, Dang, come on, come on. Because I was like up at 5 right every morning and not home until like 9. I was like, can I just do the corporate thing for a little while? I think people don't understand like what production is or what it takes to do that. And it really is long hours with a lot of personalities. So what's your like? What's your go to thing to calm people down? Besides Scotch, obviously. Listen to them and go I feel your pain.

41:21 I don't know, you know, you sort of what helps is being what helps is being honest with them in a way as honest as you can be. Say I understand your problem. No, you may not have that toy and here's why we can't afford it. And here's why. Because I've got, you know, you've already, I got this, we have this, that's all we got. Or this is, you know, it's never going to. And I try not to be that person who goes, you know, no, no, no, I'm going to may say no, but here's why I'm going to say no. Right. And you know, if you let them, they'll ask for the world and then never. And half the time, you know, when they ask for the techno crane, they're. Never gonna be. They'll never get around to it that. Day and it breaks. It breaks. And I'll talk to the production man. And I'm like, I know, we know. And I'm like, you wanna pay for it?

42:02 Have them sit there. But you know what's gonna happen? And he's like, yeah, we know. And to get it there is such a pain in the ass too. It's like just to get it there. Forget it now. Yeah, and then there's always damage and then they always like, oh, they nicked the bar or whatever the hell. It's always. Something. Now they nicked the wall. It's the wall. It's the side of a building or a car. No, the the industry thing is the heck no Crane, No, heck no. You may not have the techno. No, I call them as we call them. Somebody someone told me a long time ago we call them TSTS, time sucking toys, but no more TSTS today because you're never going around to using them. Oh my God I love that. I wish I knew that then. I wish I knew that then. OK, so I'm your time is money because you're you're the big guy in town. But I want to know, is there like some dream project that you wish you could bring into the world? Like is there anything like that that exists for you? Not really.

42:54 You know, we have a couple of projects coming up. Well, it's not a secret, I guess. F1, the series on Amazon, in Amazon. We're writing the scripts now. It's not Greenlee yet, so I may. Are you going to become a medic again just to be on set? Because. I'm not going to need it. God, no, I don't I there's no way I would ever go and I was shooting like 5 countries. I I that I would, I would kill me. Probably my age. I it takes it takes 10 years off my life. You're thinking my sciatica alone. My sciatica forget. It I can't do that, I'll be glad to watch the cash register. I'll be glad to be around and help out. But as far as hands on physically, no. So I mean that's a possibility towards the end of the year. We'll have to see what happens with that. It's just it's so funky what you think are just, you know, green lit, done deals that make no sense why they would ever say no.

43:46 They say no and you just don't know why. Spend all this money and then go no, no. So who's above you? Like who is who? Who do you report to there I. Report to The only person I report is Philippe Mcgray, who is the president of ITV Studios. So he's the only one above me and I have a couple other I have a head of we have a head of business affairs who's also at EVP, who else is EVP, finance, EVP, couple of people that straddle reality in the company and us kind of handle both obviously this infrastructure like HR and all that kind of stuff. Now above me basically is that, but then of course, Philippe reports to the to Europe, to the mothership, which is in Republic of Credit Corporation obviously, and London. So based in London.

44:33 So he goes. He's over there actually right now for the 60s. That's why I was asking you about Graham Norton. I'm a long time Graham Norton fan. I just think he's so funny like his. I don't I don't want to know about the show because I found him funny and it took me I think and again, I was like a barely a pinky toe in the industry compared to you. I think it took me 5 years to be able to watch something and not be like I know where they shot that, where they parked the cars, where the extras, how many did like. That's a great story because honestly, people used to. I go, I work all weekend like what's your the weekend? Oh, I went, went to the movies and watched 2 movies. I'm like, I can't. I literally it's like watching someone else's problems on the screen. If I sit there, it's like I start breaking into a sweat and I'm like, oh God, look at all those extras. Oh look where they're shooting.

45:15 I know where that is. That's a bitch of a location. I'm like I can't look at. I can't even look at a show. I do like even a Mad Men. I couldn't watch. I could watch the episodes, what they were, kind of give some notes, you know, dabble a little bit. But it literally took me until about a couple years ago where I could go back and literally just watching the episode you go, it's not that bad. I want to respect your time, so I'm going to thank you for joining. Like I can listen to your stories probably more, but I would love to know if you came with a warning label, what would it be? Don't trust him. No warning label. You get what you get and you don't get upset. I don't know it's.

45:58 Good. It's good. He's like. Here I am. That's it, buddy. Yeah, I mean, again, like it's incredible that you seem to have maintained, like, you know, that little memory that I have that you were pretty level headed, easygoing, but direct and ran the ship. That's rare because usually there's a lot of like, assholes on set. Yeah, the old days of the screaming first a DS that's over. Those people all died of massive heart attacks on set. Well, Dwayne, thank you so much for being a part of the Holly Hughes podcast. I really appreciate your time and I wish you an easy ease out of the industry whenever you're ready. But I hope you're not ready too soon because you sound like one of the winners out there, one of the keepers. So thank you you're.

46:38 Welcome. Thank you.