The Rest of Our Lives: Author Judy Goldman Muses About Writing Memoirs, and the Effects of Aging on Identity and Creativity

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Well, welcome to the Holly
Hughes podcast.

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Today my guest is Judy Goldman,
who I'm so excited to have a

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one-on-one conversation with.
She's the author of over 8

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books, 4 memoir, 2 novels, some
poetry.

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She's a woman who did New York
advertising in the age of Mad

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Men and with the most beautiful
Southern charm.

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Actually broke out my nicest
southern girls sweater.

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That I owned too.
I see that.

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I see it soft, like little
clouds or hearts.

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Yeah.
They're, they're fuzzy little

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hearts.
So I did that just for you.

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I was like, oh, I, I should try
to be as southern as I possibly

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can.
I'm raising a southern girl, but

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I, I am not really, but that's
OK.

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But thank you for joining me
today.

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It's so nice to see you, and I
really want to start off our

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conversation today talking about
the rest of our lives.

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And I already know you've talked
to Wiley Cash, which is

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exceedingly intimidating for me
to come after him.

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But I'm bringing such a
different perspective because I

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really am so curious about your
family and sense of belonging in

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aging as a woman.
And, and I am, I'm going to go

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there with you because I think
that's the heart of this book.

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So welcome, Miss.
Judy, Thank you, Holly.

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And I love your perspective.
I really do.

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Nobody has talked with me about
my book from that perspective.

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This is new.
This is new.

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So I really appreciate it.
And to me, it is the heart of

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the book.
I think I'm talking to other

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women.
I really am.

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I'm happy to have male readers,
but I really think I'm talking

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to other women and saying, look
at us.

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Look at the experiences that we
have.

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Look at our world.
I love that you're saying look

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at us because so I cry when I
get feel connected to something

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so you will probably see me and
tear up.

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But like for me in my past mid
50s now and my mom is the same

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age as you but we have an
agreement that she never ages

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past 42.
My mother's 42 and I am 50. 6 a

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little bit older than she is
right?

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If I do the math right, I think
I got it.

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Yeah, exactly.
I think that for me, in this

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phase of life of really knowing
who I am, but not knowing where

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I'm going, not knowing where I'm
going to live, not having a plan

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for it, because I used to make a
lot of plans and they didn't

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work.
And those horrible creeping

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feelings of invisibility.
Yes, like, yes, right.

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Well, I want to go back to what
you said right before that about

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not knowing where you might live
next, because when I started

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writing this book, Holly, I
didn't really have my premise

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yet.
So let me circle to that and

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then get back to housing.
So my premise for people who

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have not read my book is that we
tend to think of old age as

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something foreign or alien,
right?

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But really it just echoes all
the stages we have passed

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through on our way from then to
now.

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And each stage brings with it
the fear of the unfamiliar and

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the exhilaration, the excitement
of trying on a new kind of

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existence.
And but I didn't have that

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premise when I started writing
the book.

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I just knew that I was going to
write something about aging.

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I had those 3 words in my
notebook, something about aging.

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Question mark.
That's how I started.

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Exclamation.
Point first I started.

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Yeah, exactly.
First I started talking, though,

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about home and what home means,
how we can each visualize the

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rooms of the house we grew up
in, Right.

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I mean, I often put myself to
sleep with that.

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Here's the entry hall.
Here's the den, here's the

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dining room.
But I started thinking about how

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old age is really a lot like
young age.

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They're all these parallels.
Where are we going to live when

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you're first married?
Now I moved into my husband's

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bachelor apartment with rented
furniture.

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I don't recommend the rented
furniture necessarily, but it

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was a cute little apartment.
But each stage of life.

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Then we have a child.
Do we need a bigger place?

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Can we afford a house all along
the way?

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Where do I live next?
What does it say about me where

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I live and then now what your
mother may be dealing with and

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what I'm dealing with is where
do we live now?

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Do we stay in this condo that we
moved into 11 years ago or do we

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move to a retirement community?
Every one of my friends wants to

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talk about that dilemma.
So and maybe my mom.

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Has a rule.
There's no talking about aches

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and pains.
There's no getting together and

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talking about aches and pains.
She's like talk about anything

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else but that she's like, that
just brings me down.

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But I think you also like the
spark of your novel, that

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beautiful, like lovely thread
throughout is Genesis and Uncle

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Irwin, who I want this man in my
life.

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I don't know, like every time
you mention him and he gives

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advice, no one listens.
No, no.

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And and he's just the well, he's
dead now, but he was this

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wonderful person, I mean, a
really favorite uncle and smart

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as he could be.
I don't know why we never took

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his advice, you know.
So for those who haven't read

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the.
You have to read it.

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Don't don't spoil Uncle Irwin
because.

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OK, don't spoil Uncle Irwin.
And it's such a perfect name

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too.
It is.

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This is like when he's, I was at
your parents house where they

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had to walk through both of your
rooms to get to their room and

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he was like, that's not such a
good choice.

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Right.
And it wasn't, it wasn't my

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father was hard of hearing.
And so to get to his and

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mother's bedroom, they had to
cross through my sisters in my

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bedroom, the bedroom that my
sister and I shared.

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But like I say, my father was
hard of hearing.

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So he would knock on our door
first, of course.

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And we'd say no, don't come in.
And he'd say, come in and I

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would say, no, don't come in,
OK, I'm coming, you know, And

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that that was repeated forever.
It was a terrible arrangement of

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rooms.
Uncle Irwin was absolutely

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right.
Don't buy this house.

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And we love that house so much.
I have written about it in many

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of my books.
It that house means so much to

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me.
Sorry, Uncle Irwin.

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We love you, Uncle Irwin.
I think I, I think, well, I had

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a favorite Uncle Ray and he
wasn't like that, but there was

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something about that man.
He was my my grandmother's

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sister's husband, right?
And I know that's why I.

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Don't.
So he was your great uncle.

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He was my great uncle.
He was in Pearl Harbor.

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He was there at Pearl Harbor.
And I have his ID, his military

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ID, and he got.
Was it a Purple Heart?

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Yeah.
And I have that.

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I don't know why it landed with
me.

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I just think, like, out of all
the relatives there, you know,

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But there was these memories of
him, of being so kind and caring

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and he, they never had children
of their own.

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And there was just some magical
connection.

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And I'm sure Irwin didn't look
like him.

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But like, for me, me, that's
what it conjured you.

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You brought my family to life.
And my family is nothing like

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yours.
And like, for me, I'm always

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struggling with this sense of
home and what is home and safe.

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And in your storytelling, you
talk about how you always had

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this group.
You still have a group of women

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who you like are like central
and you have this nucleus of

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family that you're still so
close to.

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And like, my family was on the
East Coast and I lived in

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California for 18 years, right?
So like, for me, your ability to

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be near and loving is delicious,
fascinating.

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And I, I can't imagine it.
Like I, I'm like, like, I can't.

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And I want to.
So what?

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As I read your work, I get to
live it and it's so fun.

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Like it's, it's warm and and
inviting for me because we're

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also both Jewish, right?
So like for me, I can hear the

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little bit of Yiddish or I could
hear what I assumed.

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Share in the background.
Yeah.

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So like, that was interesting.
So how did that idea of Genesis

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finally bubble to the surface
for you?

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Well, I was thinking about how
much my family love stories.

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I mean, everybody in my family,
the family that I grew up in,

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love telling stories.
And so I was thinking, but we

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don't just tell any story.
It's stories that have some kind

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of a spark, often the beginning
of something.

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You know, the the way that my
parents met, you know, the fact

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that they really disliked each
other immediately.

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I mean, it was hate at first
sight and then it was love at

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first sight when they met again.
And so I knew they had this

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wonderful genesis story.
And then I always thought, I

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hope my husband and I in the
future, you know, I'm thinking

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this growing up, I hope that my
future husband and I have a

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great genesis story because
those are the stories that

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everyone in my family told so
much, these stories that mark

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beginnings and how important
those beginnings are.

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Well, they might not seem that
important to other people, but

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they did to us.
You know, I mean, my brother and

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the snake that he killed at
camp, I mean, that was an

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important Genesis story.
We had a photograph of him and

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the snake on the wall of our
den.

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You know, now that's not so
important to other people, but

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to us it was sort of.
My brother was never bar

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mitzvahed because he got a cold
before his bar mitzvah and

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somehow it got cancelled and
never rescheduled.

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I don't know, It just got
forgotten somehow.

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And so maybe that was like his
bar mitzvah, you know, killing

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the snake or something.
I don't know what it meant, but

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that's what I'm saying.
The Genesis stories were only

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significant to us, not
necessarily to other people.

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But I think that's true of
families, don't you, Holly?

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That the stories families repeat
aren't necessarily the most

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important stories.
That's a really good question.

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I think while you're talking
about the killing of the snake,

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I realized I was raising a
Southern girl.

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One time we were down in Kiawah
and my daughter was little still

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right elementary school, like
maybe 8-6, maybe younger, 6 or

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8, something like that.
And we were fishing and she had

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a Tinkerbell fishing pole.
But every night as it got

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sunset, we went to this part of
the marsh and we would go

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fishing.
And we met Mr. Ernie.

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And she was sitting next to Mr.
Ernie, who owned one of the

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really giant houses back there,
but was very unassuming.

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And then then my daughter looked
up.

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She goes, Mama, Mama, there's a
babe, a Gator.

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And that's like, whoa, what just
came out of your mouth?

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That was, that's a genesis for
me that I have this Southern.

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No, she doesn't.
Her accent isn't really.

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But sometimes, just like when
I'm very tired, I will say the

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word coffee, like, oh, when that
comes out of my mouth, you know,

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I need to go to sleep.
I, I am tired.

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I think the genesis story that I
remember hearing was of my great

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grandmother Clara, who came over
from Russia.

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And they were poor, of course.
So they were at the bottom of

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the boat and she always told the
story that they were too poor

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and they didn't really have
food.

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And what they ate was what the
rich people threw down, which

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was bananas.
And her story is you'd never

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found a banana in her house
after that.

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She would like never eat it.
But to me, she was that really

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strong woman who escaped what
she escaped to survive and come

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here.
And she was tough, right?

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She was super tough.
So like that's my idea of her

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right is like this strong woman
who came across on the IT makes

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reminds me of the the movie
Brooklyn right when they came

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when like that.
Whole thing, I was like, in the

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book, yeah.
But what's interesting about

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what you're saying, Holly, is
that when you're imitating your

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daughter and her voice and her
accent, so she's Southern, you

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are not OK Flip that for my
family because obviously I am

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very Southern and my children do
not sound Southern at all.

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00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,960
And my grandchildren make fun of
my the way I pronounce people

225
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,880
like when I just said daughter,
they cannot.

226
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,800
They roll on the floor when I
say the word daughter.

227
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:00,160
So.
You know.

228
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,960
I like it.
It's it's just family is like

229
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,400
that.
It's just funny to them, you

230
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:11,520
know, that or they'll or they'll
say somebody is really Southern.

231
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,200
They sound like you, gay, gay,
you know, I mean, I'm the

232
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,720
quintessential Southerner to
them, you know?

233
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,520
And yet they are my
grandchildren, you know, we're

234
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,240
so close.
And Speaking of grandchildren,

235
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,120
pardon.
I said, And you spent enough

236
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,840
time in New York and I know.
I did I'm.

237
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,160
Trying to erase that
southernness from you, but it

238
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,240
didn't stick.
It did not erase any

239
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,000
Southernness.
I mean, I can remember when I

240
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:45,040
moved to New York.
I mean, I was fresh from the

241
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,160
South.
I'd grown up in Rock Hill.

242
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,320
I'd gone to school in Athens,
GA, then I had taught school in

243
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,760
Atlanta, and then I moved to New
York.

244
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,120
And I can remember that first
week sitting at the little

245
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,480
circular, one of the circular
counters in chock full of nuts

246
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:09,120
and ordering my coffee and the
cream cheese date nut and cream

247
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,800
cheese sandwich.
And when I ordered, I could just

248
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,480
see everybody around my little
circle turning around to look at

249
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,960
me.
And I had tried so hard not to

250
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,360
sound Southern when I ordered
it, you know.

251
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,320
Yeah, Yeah, I like that.
But.

252
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,680
But that's where I grew up.
I mean, I really feel like those

253
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,200
two years in New York and you
mentioned the Mad Men years in

254
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,760
your introduction.
I feel like that's where I grew

255
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,920
up in New York.
And again, I'll go back to

256
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,200
something I said a while ago and
something that I think is really

257
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:55,120
important to me in this book,
The Rest of our lives, and that

258
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,360
is, and I'm going to use the
same words, the exhilaration of

259
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,960
trying out a new kind of
existence.

260
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,440
I mean, I can.
And I think that's very

261
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,480
particular to women in some
ways.

262
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,040
Going back to your perspective,
because I can remember walking

263
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,000
along the street in New York on
my way to work, and I was just

264
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,040
thinking I could be her, or I
could be her, or I could be her.

265
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,160
I could wear that or I could
wear that.

266
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:36,240
It was me at 23 realizing I can
come into my own in an important

267
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,000
way now.
I mean, I'm still going to be

268
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:45,720
who who I've always been, but I
also can be a newer version of

269
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:51,400
myself as I'm growing up, as I'm
having all of these new exotic

270
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,360
to me experiences, you know, and
I think women are aware of that

271
00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:59,000
more than men are.
I don't know whether that's a

272
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,640
generalization or not.
I don't know.

273
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,480
I don't it's girl talk right now
anyway, so I think, you know, I

274
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,760
mean, I love my man Candy, but
it's all good.

275
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,840
I think.
I think like as you speak and

276
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,640
like going through and knowing
like all of my insecurities as a

277
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,120
young woman in her 20s, that's
when I moved out to LA.

278
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,680
So then the pressure to be a
specific thing or look a

279
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,720
specific way.
Part of what I like reading

280
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,360
about your book and what I hope
I'm giving my own daughter is

281
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,520
love you right.
Like I don't I didn't have that.

282
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,400
I don't.
I don't know why.

283
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,280
Like I don't.
I really don't know.

284
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,560
Like why, I guess because Oh no,
I do.

285
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,160
I'm lying.
I'm a big fat liar.

286
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,720
This is my mom, blonde hair,
blue eyed kind of legs where her

287
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,000
thighs don't touch right.
Like and everyone told me my

288
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,160
whole life, she's so beautiful
and I look like my dad.

289
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,080
And so I was like, well, what
does that make me like?

290
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,760
That is how I internalized it.
I don't think anyone said that

291
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,760
to me.
I don't like, I don't remember.

292
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,040
I do remember one man told me I
looked like Tiny Tim and I was

293
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,280
like devastated because I had
really curly hair because when I

294
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,400
was younger, like really thick
and curly, I was like, well,

295
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,600
that that was mean.
That was like the meanest thing

296
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,720
I think I've ever heard said
about me.

297
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:23,240
But standards of beauty and then
coming into your own and finding

298
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,120
like what you want.
Like I used to wear clothes as

299
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,760
armor, right?
Like I need to be tough today.

300
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,400
So I'll wear this.
Whereas they are still

301
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:38,320
self-expression, but more firmly
rooted in I just like it.

302
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,720
Like this makes me feel good or
I feel playful.

303
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,760
Just like this is my southern
outfit and I can have my more

304
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:51,200
feminine or whatever, but there
is that little nuance to it as

305
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,280
opposed to pretending and
owning.

306
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,680
And see, I think you just hit on
something very interesting

307
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:03,200
because I, I have a whole
chapter in that book about

308
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:09,560
beauty, about looks and from my
southern perspective.

309
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,080
I wondered if it was something
Southern, you know, that we grew

310
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,880
up thinking that looks were so
important.

311
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,400
I was so shocked when I was
writing the book, and I'm

312
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,920
talking about how I knew every
Miss America and I knew

313
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,040
everything about every Miss
America.

314
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:39,640
And the Miss America I adored
was Bess Meyerson, 1948, but I

315
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,720
didn't remember her being 1948.
I just remembered that I loved

316
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,840
Bess Myerson when I looked her
up when I was writing the book,

317
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,240
I saw 1948.
Holly.

318
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,360
That means I was seven years
old.

319
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:59,640
That is very young to be so
conscious of looks, right?

320
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,800
That's what was striking to me,
that at age 7, I thought looks

321
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,920
were important.
And I thought in writing my

322
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,600
book, I was sort of coming to
the realization that maybe it

323
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,000
was a Southern thing, that all
of that was so important.

324
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,320
But I, like you, grew up with a
beautiful mother.

325
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,400
Everybody talked about my mother
being so beautiful.

326
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,560
I mean, I think I say in my book
that she was Miss Denmark, SC

327
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,520
and runner up to Miss South
Carolina, but she wanted her

328
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,360
oldest sister to be in the
contest, not her.

329
00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:40,520
I mean, so she wasn't even aware
of her beauty really, which is

330
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,560
what made her even more
beautiful.

331
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:49,040
And, and neither my sister nor
I, neither one of us would be

332
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,480
thought of as beautiful, not
ever.

333
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:59,720
But I really sort of basked in
her glory because I felt like

334
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,200
she's so beautiful and she
belongs to me.

335
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,200
So that makes me something very
special.

336
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,120
I mean, I, I'm, I was the
opposite of you.

337
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,320
I feel.
How about my daughter?

338
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:19,680
I was Little Miss Arrogant.
I mean, I thought that made me

339
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,680
very special.
And all of my best friends, and

340
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,680
I say this in the book, all my
best friends growing up from age

341
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,240
4 in nursery school to seniors
in high school, and they're good

342
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,600
friends of mine now.
And I interviewed them in the

343
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,320
book.
They were beautiful, really

344
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,840
beautiful, you know, So I was
surrounded by beautiful women

345
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:48,440
and I just thought that made me
very special that they like to

346
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,280
me too, I, you know.
Reading that, I was reading

347
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,320
like, wait, that's one of my
tags in here.

348
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,080
I was like, I why didn't I think
like like why didn't I think

349
00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,280
that?
Like how you're speaking?

350
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,840
Like I always say I cooked that.
When I look at my daughter, I

351
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,800
don't know how I cooked that.
She's the cutest little nose.

352
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,800
She's like 4 inches to.
I don't know.

353
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,280
How do I cook that?
That's so amazing.

354
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,040
I made that like that's what I
think.

355
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,720
I don't have a competition
thing.

356
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,800
I think it might be part of the
women legacy.

357
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,200
Like I said, that great
grandmother who had came over,

358
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,000
she had three or I'm forgetting
my how many uncles I had, but my

359
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,200
grandma Jean was her daughter
and she didn't treat her

360
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,880
daughter very well because the
boys were much more important.

361
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,760
So I don't know that she was
ever told that she was anything

362
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,280
special.
And then she had two daughters,

363
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,160
right.
And I think I, I really honestly

364
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,160
believe my mother's thought
growing up was like, your beauty

365
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,480
is your biggest asset, right?
See, my mother never would have

366
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,960
said that, Never, never when
they asked her, this is part of

367
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,760
the story, another Genesis story
that is told over and over and

368
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,480
over.
When they asked mother to be in

369
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,160
the beauty contest, she said I
shouldn't be in the beauty

370
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,840
contest.
Ask Emma, my older sister.

371
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:13,320
She's beautiful, you know, I
mean, she just, it just was not

372
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,680
anything to her.
And maybe that's why I didn't

373
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:22,280
feel competitive with her or
lacking in some way.

374
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:26,160
Just that, oh, you know, how
great.

375
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,760
Yeah.
If somebody said your mother's

376
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,560
beautiful, I would say isn't
she?

377
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,840
You know, I agree.
I agree.

378
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:39,160
And and you touched on the
circle of friends I have right

379
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,400
now and that's going back to the
female thing.

380
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:50,080
So I always thought, and my
group of friends is we call

381
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,360
ourselves the breakfast group.
OK, I always thought that I

382
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:57,160
would write something about the
breakfast group, but how can I

383
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,200
write anything about them
because I'm not going to reveal

384
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,720
their stories.
I mean, we would never do that

385
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,760
to each other because we we talk
so intimately and we've been

386
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,440
meeting for I think 40 years
once a week.

387
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,000
But it was so perfect.
The way that I got to write

388
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,240
about them was sort of coming in
the back door really, not really

389
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,920
coming in head 1st.
And that was one morning when we

390
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,080
were meeting.
You know this from the book,

391
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,320
that if you're quiet at the
breakfast group, somebody will

392
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,000
ask you what's going on.
And I was quiet and somebody

393
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,880
said, Judy, what's going on with
you?

394
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,040
And I said, well, I'm writing a
new book.

395
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,080
I've just started something.
Of course they asked, what is it

396
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,200
about?
They're not writers.

397
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,240
One other person in the book in
the group was a writer, Danny

398
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,600
Powell, whom you probably know
of, and she died recently.

399
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,560
But she and I were the only
writers in the group, really.

400
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,440
And so somebody said, what do
you, what is the book about?

401
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,920
And I said, it's a book about
aging.

402
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:09,560
And Oh my gosh, Holly.
I mean, it was like, it was like

403
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:15,120
the 4th of July in comments.
I mean, everybody started

404
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,600
chiming in because we're all
about the same age.

405
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,800
Everybody started chiming in on
their thoughts about aging.

406
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,360
So I grabbed a grocery list for
my purse and turned it over to

407
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:31,000
the back and started writing
down everything that they were

408
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:38,520
saying because part of my good
luck is to have friends who say

409
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,080
such interesting things.
And I did think, didn't you

410
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,280
think?
What they said about aging in my

411
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,360
book was really good and and
each one so different.

412
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,800
But they all like are an aspect
of like my inner world, right?

413
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,800
So most of my friends are much
younger than me.

414
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,760
Most of them, the ones I talk to
the most, are like 20 years

415
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,120
younger than me.
Are your age?

416
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,640
Probably.
Yeah, my, my critique partner is

417
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,320
10 years.
Yeah, they're like, right, like,

418
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,120
yeah, exactly.
Or my critique partner's 10

419
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:15,760
years younger.
So sometimes when I'm going

420
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,640
through something right, they or
I'm looking at them, I will be

421
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,800
like in your book, just how it
does.

422
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,880
I Remember Me then.
Did I appreciate myself then?

423
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:30,880
How can I appreciate where I am
now?

424
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,200
I still have so much life.
Lord, look, I'm starting a

425
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,840
podcast for goodness sakes.
Like you, you know, it doesn't

426
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:42,240
end, but aging well fuck with
your head like it will, it will

427
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:47,520
just mess with me sometimes and
I'm like, Oh my God, like what?

428
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,320
What is that?
Like why?

429
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,920
Why is it that when I touch my
neck now it stays like?

430
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:55,080
What?
Why do I have acne?

431
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,720
It's a.
Shock when I'm.

432
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,800
It's a shock because, well,
first.

433
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,560
I don't have them because
they're like, I'm 36.

434
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,520
I want to get married.
I'm like, OK, I'm so happy for

435
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,440
you.
We feel like we're the same.

436
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,840
We feel young.
I mean, I'm 17 in my mind and

437
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:21,040
yet I don't look like I'm 17.
And the ways that your looks

438
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,400
change when you get older, I
mean, those are shocking ways,

439
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,840
things that people didn't tell
me about.

440
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,000
You know, I mean, I say in my
book that all my teeth now, I

441
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,440
mean, are trying to be my front
teeth.

442
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,600
I didn't know that was going to
hurt.

443
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,160
Me.
That was so funny.

444
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,800
I had perfect teeth.
Holly, but it was funny.

445
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,280
I had perfect teeth.
I want you to know, everybody

446
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:51,080
asked me if I wore braces and I
was so again, arrogant.

447
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,680
No, I did not wear braces.
I was born with these perfect

448
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,960
teeth and and see, I think
that's what happens.

449
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,480
I think the things that you're
most arrogant about get taken

450
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,240
away from you.
And so that was a good learning

451
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,680
lesson for me not to be so, you
know, full of myself over my

452
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,600
teeth.
I know a woman who actually.

453
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:18,360
Invisalign.
But you know, the other thing

454
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:24,200
about aging that I became aware
of in writing the book is how

455
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,320
shocked we are at every
birthday.

456
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,880
We're shocked to be the age we
are.

457
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,760
I mean, I can remember thinking
I'm 16.

458
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:40,520
Wow, you know, or 5050 was a big
birthday.

459
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,920
I could hardly get the word out.
I can remember the first time

460
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:50,880
somebody asked me how old I was
and I said I'm I could, I could

461
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,760
get the F, but I couldn't get
the whole FIFTY out.

462
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,000
I couldn't get the whole word
out.

463
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,480
It was so shocking to me.
And 70, why don't you get to 70?

464
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,160
That is a big one.
That was the biggest birthday of

465
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,080
all to me, 70 and now I'm 83.
So 80 should have been big, but

466
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,640
70 was bigger to me for some
reason.

467
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,320
Aging.
The whole thing of aging.

468
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,840
So aging in my family looks like
this.

469
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,400
My mom already told me save your
money for a facelift.

470
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,400
Every woman needs one at 65.
That's one thing.

471
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,120
That's her bit of advice.
And then the other bit was when

472
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,560
she turned 50.
I know she's 42, but imagine

473
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,040
that she actually made it to.
50.

474
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,960
But she had.
I can hardly believe I'm 50.

475
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,120
So she rented a bar out and put
motorcycles in it, and everyone

476
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,400
came dressed in motorcycle
leather.

477
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,640
That's pretty good though.
That's pretty.

478
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,200
New that's, that's how she does
it, yeah.

479
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,480
I think that's very cool, Very
cool.

480
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,080
I'll tell you, talking about the
breakfast group and the

481
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,880
different comments that they
made about aging, I thought one

482
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,120
of the best comments was one of
the members of the breakfast

483
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:17,560
group said that she doesn't miss
doing the particular things that

484
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,560
she used to do.
Like she doesn't miss traveling

485
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,880
to far off places.
She doesn't miss skiing or

486
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:30,600
playing tennis, But she said I
miss wanting to do those things.

487
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,160
I thought that was so
interesting.

488
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,320
Do you have a missing like that
now?

489
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,400
Because I've seen in other
interviews that you're not a

490
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,480
nice or happy person when you're
not writing, right?

491
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,760
Like that is very true.
So that will be part.

492
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,000
I want to know what comes next.
But do you have a thing that you

493
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:56,360
don't miss or that you still do?
Because I if I'm not mistaken,

494
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,240
you haven't moved.
No, we're still here.

495
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,560
I think that's a long
conversation this morning about

496
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,720
should I move or not.
I mean, this decision has been

497
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,040
going on since 2017.
You can count up the years,

498
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,480
right?
Eight years.

499
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,800
I've been talking about should
we move?

500
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,560
Should we not move?
And I mean, I say this in the

501
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,160
book and I've said this in
interviews.

502
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:32,840
I think that my hope is that my
husband and I-1, then the other

503
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,320
will just drop dead on our
living room rug and then that

504
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,280
will be it.
We don't have to think about

505
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,200
moving.
We don't have to think about

506
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,520
home health care.
You know, all of that will be

507
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,960
moot and it will be over and
that'll be just great.

508
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,280
But we don't get a choice in
that.

509
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,760
That's the problem.
We don't get a choice in that.

510
00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:00,920
But I think that one of the
things, do you were you asking

511
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,480
what I do not miss about being
young?

512
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:10,800
What I do not miss?
It's funny because it's a

513
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,600
variety of where do we move now
or do we stay here now?

514
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:21,640
But I do not miss worrying about
which school my children should

515
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,760
go to.
And I remember it so keenly,

516
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,560
too.
I really do.

517
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,600
In fact, not very long ago, some
other women and I were talking

518
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,360
about our children and the
different schools that they had

519
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,880
gone through, gone to from
preschool through 12th grade.

520
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,600
And I won the prize.
I mean, my kids had been to the

521
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:52,680
most schools because we really
believed busing came into effect

522
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,280
when my kids were young and my
husband and I really wanted to

523
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,880
support busing.
We we felt that that was

524
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,760
important, that that was how we
could integrate Charlotte

525
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,240
school.
So we wanted to be on board for

526
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,639
that.
So for example, my son in

527
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:14,120
kindergarten, so he was five
years old.

528
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,320
He got on the bus like at 5:00
in the morning.

529
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,440
He went to kindergarten all day
at Irwin Ave. open school.

530
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,639
He got home about 5 or 6 at
night.

531
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:28,440
Now that's a long day for a 5
year old.

532
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:34,440
So we was in a way sacrificing
him for our beliefs.

533
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,320
That's what we finally came to.
So we just kept trying different

534
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,520
schools, hoping to stay in the
public school system.

535
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:48,719
And but in a way, that decision,
where should your children go to

536
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,199
school?
Isn't that a lot like the

537
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:56,239
decision of do I stay put or do
I move to a retirement

538
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,320
community?
It's all the same.

539
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,200
It's just as important because
often I'll add one more thing.

540
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:08,360
This thing about children, you
decide on the public school, for

541
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,400
example, that you want them to
go to and then you're in a

542
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,280
lottery.
So then it's out of your

543
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,360
control.
And that's true of retirement

544
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,000
communities because you might
decide on one, but then you wait

545
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,200
to see where you are on the wait
list.

546
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,560
It's all the same.
We're just going through the

547
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:33,760
same stages, I have to think.
About moving, I am, I'm an, I'm

548
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,920
an animal when it comes to
moving because I, I lost my home

549
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,760
to a fire.
And during that year, I think we

550
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,040
moved three or four times in one
year because the rental houses

551
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,120
back in the day, in the eight in
the 80s, it was my senior year

552
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,640
in high school.
My house burned down in

553
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,280
November.
And all my applications, yeah,

554
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,280
it was at 3:30 in the morning.
It was, it was awful.

555
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,560
I, I still remember to this day,
I woke up, my parents had bought

556
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,480
their dream house and it was a
year of construction.

557
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,320
So they bought the house from a
person who couldn't finish

558
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,400
building it.
And then so we lived with

559
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,440
construction, which is something
look, it makes my head itch.

560
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,480
We live with construction for a
year.

561
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,920
And on the day the final coat of
paint was supposed to go on, we

562
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,480
had a storm and we were
surrounded by a lot of wood.

563
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,760
So my dad had bought up a
generator and the backup

564
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,200
generator.
The gas valve malfunctioned and

565
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,280
fire shot through the duct
system in the house, melting the

566
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,400
fire alarms before they could go
off.

567
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,840
And I remember I woke up from a
dream and it was also the 80s

568
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,240
where you had the crank windows.
Does everyone like, you know, I

569
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,600
know people don't have to use a
hand crank anymore, but like you

570
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,000
had to like open them.
Like we have two like that right

571
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,560
now.
OK, so.

572
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,400
You know they don't always stay
shut, right?

573
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,520
So it was a storm and one of
them blew open and I woke up

574
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,160
from my bed and I thought my, I
thought I had like, sleep eyes.

575
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,840
Like I just couldn't see.
It was blurry.

576
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,680
And I closed the window and I
went back to bed.

577
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,720
And then two minutes later, my
mom says, Holly, wake up, the

578
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:11,360
house is on fire.
So she was a notoriously light

579
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,120
sleeper.
And what happened was the heat

580
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,080
from the flame the the wind was
blowing the opposite way that

581
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,160
the fire shot through the house.
So the fire alarms melted before

582
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,000
they went off.
So I woke up, yeah, this is

583
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,320
crazy.
I woke up.

584
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,080
And so like the house was always
under construction about to get

585
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,760
painted.
So whatever we had, which

586
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,360
furniture wise, we didn't really
have it because the house wasn't

587
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:32,880
done right.
My mom didn't get to do all the

588
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,440
stuff.
So everything was like shoved in

589
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,920
the garage and the generator was
on the outside of the garage.

590
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,800
So that all melted.
And I ran into the kitchen on

591
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,800
instinct, like who knows how to
do this?

592
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,760
And I, I, I could see flames
like, but it doesn't register

593
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,920
because I go into shock.
I'm so good that way.

594
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,120
And I grab my mom's purse and
the car keys because the cars

595
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,880
are parked outside.
And then I ran into the what was

596
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,680
supposed to be the office and I
pick up the landline and I'm

597
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:06,520
like 911.
And I had the towel over my face

598
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,360
like the Saturday morning school
things used to tell you to do.

599
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,560
Like it really was in there
somehow.

600
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,920
And I call Oh, and my dad became
a volunteer fireman the day

601
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,200
before.
That's the the craziest thing is

602
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,960
only volunteer fireman in this
part of Long Island.

603
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,560
So I called, I was like, my
house is on fire and the woman's

604
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,560
like, are you in your house?
And I said yes.

605
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,640
And she screamed get out.
And but like I needed her to

606
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,800
tell me I was like 17.
I'm like in my pyjamas and we

607
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,840
run outside.
We pull the car out and then my

608
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,840
father turns just like a movie.
He's like, where's the dog?

609
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,280
He runs back into the house,
which now is very much on fire.

610
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,880
And it felt like forever, but it
must have been like a few

611
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,280
minutes, 5 something, and he
came out with the dog and they

612
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,960
went to the bottom of the
driveway, which was gravel.

613
00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:02,960
And it took 15 minutes for the
fire department get there, and

614
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,160
the house was completely gutted,
completely, like wiped out.

615
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,120
So that's why home and family to
me are super precarious.

616
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,920
Anyway, so I was saying, so I
lost my home to that fire.

617
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:21,320
And then we moved 123 times in a
year.

618
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,840
I sent my college applications
charred and rewrote my essay

619
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:30,720
about surviving the fire.
Then at 23, I lost my home to an

620
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:32,520
earthquake.
It all came down.

621
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,800
Water main break, gas main break
the building next to me half

622
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,400
collapse.
The one across the street I

623
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,360
think was on fire.
So like home to me is very

624
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:48,080
sacred and where I choose to
have home and who I invite into

625
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,240
my home.
I also don't collect tchotchkes

626
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:53,920
like I if it can break, I
probably don't want it if it

627
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,760
can, like if it's easily
destroyed.

628
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,800
And the hardest thing of all of
those moves because I'm.

629
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,360
Strangely very sentimental is
like, I have these little things

630
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,200
that were my grandma's right
that mean the world to me.

631
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,200
I have her the bowl that she
chopped in, right?

632
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,160
And it's like torn up wood from
her hand and everyone's like,

633
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,240
that's what you want.
I'm like, that is what I want

634
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,360
because she cooked in her
Brooklyn apartment in that bowl.

635
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,640
I want that bowl.
So that kind of reminds me

636
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,680
actually of the beginning of
your book while you talk about

637
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,880
how you studied your family and
wasn't it how someone was

638
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,360
smoking?
Oh, my mother, my mother.

639
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,840
I would practice in front of the
mirror how I never smoked.

640
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,960
I never smoked, but I knew how I
would hold a cigarette.

641
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,600
If I ever did start smoking, it
would be like this, you know, It

642
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,800
was just so glamorous like that,
like that.

643
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,200
I thought it was part of her
glamour.

644
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,320
It was part of her beauty.
The whole idea of how to smoke,

645
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:10,280
you know, and, and in those
years, that was glamorous,

646
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,480
right?
I mean, I don't think I knew

647
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,760
anyone when, especially the
years I lived in New York during

648
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,920
those Mad Men years.
It was in the, as you know, the

649
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,360
mid 60s when I lived there.
I didn't know anybody who didn't

650
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,480
smoke other than me.
You know, everybody smoked and

651
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,400
they smoked at their desk.
You know, I mean, the whole ad

652
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,400
agency was filled with smoke.
It probably was a little bit

653
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,960
similar to your childhood home,
you know, when you were senior

654
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,760
in high school.
Meanwhile, that story is

655
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,320
unbelievable.
I'm still sort of in that fire

656
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,960
with you, but I'm trying to move
forward.

657
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,080
But I.
Haven't really written about

658
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:51,440
that.
That's what I also like.

659
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,280
Reading your work is inspiring
to me because it's like, I have

660
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,000
daddy issues.
Like we'll just put it like

661
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,800
that.
So like for me, I really want to

662
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,960
write ultimately about that, but
I need a little more personal

663
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,120
distance.
There's still too much that's

664
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,200
kind of churned up for me, and
that's not the way I want to

665
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,680
present the story, right?
I, I, I know that, but I find it

666
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,440
interesting that you as a writer
in your young mind were studying

667
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,520
someone enough to see that my
grandma smoked merit cigarettes

668
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,600
and her ash could be like the
whole length.

669
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,920
And I would be like on Tinder
hooks.

670
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:28,320
Yeah.
Like.

671
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,920
Oh, it's like a but I want to
say, I want to say put it in

672
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:32,880
her.
Hand.

673
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:39,720
I want to say something about
you writing a memoir about home

674
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:42,720
because I was absolutely
thinking of that.

675
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:46,560
The whole, I mean, almost every
chapter could be about a

676
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,480
particular home and that would
be how you would structure the

677
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,680
memoir.
But you said earlier in our

678
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:58,880
conversation, you said something
about who I am now versus who I

679
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,240
was then.
And that's an important part of

680
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:06,800
memoir.
It's the now and then part of

681
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,000
it.
When I, when I wrote my first

682
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,160
memoir, I did not understand
that that was part of memoir.

683
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,760
I didn't understand how
important reflection is in

684
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,400
memoir.
But in particular, what do I

685
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,480
know now that I did not know
then?

686
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,680
And you referred to that
earlier.

687
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:33,160
But then also I was thinking
about that when you were talking

688
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,400
about the different homes and
what has happened to them and

689
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,280
how home feels so sacred to you,
and you use that word.

690
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,960
I was thinking what an
interesting memoir that would

691
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:53,040
make from the standpoint of what
you know about whom now versus

692
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,400
what you knew about whom then.
And I go back to.

693
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,960
I'm like, I can't wait.
Like where's my blank journal?

694
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,960
Because I.
Think you need to write this

695
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,840
down.
No, I'm going to have it

696
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:05,840
recorded.
I'm I'm.

697
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:08,280
You gave.
Me the the biggest gift right

698
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,640
now, because I think if I put my
life in those terms, the stories

699
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,560
are so much easier.
And if I go at it from that like

700
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,120
paternal angle, because it's not
just that story, right?

701
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,080
Like my big dream is this is
what I always said.

702
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,240
Once I became a parent, one
thing was like, Oh no, I have to

703
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:28,400
answer what's for dinner every
night, which is my least

704
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,680
favorite question in the world.
And two, that I want to create a

705
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,160
home that she wants to come back
and visit.

706
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,880
Like that?
Of course, we all want that.

707
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,960
Part of me.
Yes, I don't think so.

708
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,400
You.
Have not met my family.

709
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,240
I'm just saying, like, I don't
know that that's ever been a

710
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,280
point or a conscious thing.
But for me, it was very.

711
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,240
It's very important.
Yeah.

712
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:58,840
Safeties is a fascinating little
sizzle in my life.

713
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,920
That's why I love that you have
friends forever and that friend

714
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,120
group forever.
Each of those are pocket of

715
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,800
home, someone who knew you.
Exactly.

716
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,880
Yes, yes, that we find, we find
home where we can find it

717
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:20,280
really.
I mean, home does have a lot of

718
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,360
different meanings for sure.
Absolutely.

719
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:29,720
And it can be your childhood
home that you remember.

720
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,720
It can be your friends right now
that you've met recently.

721
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,720
I mean, home is a movable feast.
In other words, it it really is.

722
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:45,360
And I think it's an important
concept for most people because

723
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,120
some people feel keenly that
they have never had it.

724
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:56,480
And some people feel keenly be
that they had it but lost it or

725
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,560
didn't have it and have found
it.

726
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,680
I mean it.
They're all different

727
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:07,800
experiences with home.
And maybe in a way, I'm just

728
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,640
thinking about it in this
conversation with you.

729
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:17,160
In a way, every single one of my
memoirs, even really I should

730
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,800
include my novels and my poetry
books too.

731
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,520
I would say every single one of
my books is essentially about

732
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,720
home.
I think that that's probably

733
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:31,480
true.
What makes a home?

734
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,160
How we connect, how we
disconnect, how we reconnect,

735
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,040
all of that, all of that, the
relationship we.

736
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,400
Overcome illness, Yes.
Yeah.

737
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,200
I also wanted to tell you,
reading your book, which is kind

738
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,360
of how my brain works, so I'm
going to do a little jump.

739
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,440
If I jump too far, you just let
me know.

740
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,560
But like I said, I hate
answering what's for dinner.

741
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,800
And we're a family of three, and
my daughter's getting ready to

742
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,120
be a senior in high school and
more empty nesters.

743
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,560
That's why we're talking.
Like, where do you want to go?

744
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,800
My husband doesn't want to see a
neighbor.

745
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,480
He wants to not see anyone.
And I am a city girl.

746
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,640
So this is always.
Been that's a little bit of a

747
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,040
problem.
It isn't my we have a horse and

748
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,880
a donkey as neighbors right now.
Like how much further do you

749
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,640
want to put me?
But I vacation to Seoul, which

750
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,800
is in a city that I love that I
feel at home in.

751
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,960
And I have, I always say I have
no business feeling that way,

752
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,160
but I really do when I'm there,
even though the travel there

753
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:35,160
wrecks my body right from that
aging thing.

754
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,600
What is cool about being there
is in their society, they

755
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,840
respect age.
Age is treated very differently

756
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,360
there than here.
So even if I'm not the best at

757
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,160
the language and I am a
foreigner, there is a slight

758
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,760
level of I always feel mutual
respect in that like, oh, she's

759
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,320
an older woman, don't be a jerk.
Because my younger friends have

760
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,120
gotten like shoved, but I have
never gotten shoved when I was

761
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:03,880
there.
So.

762
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,640
And it's just also because they
don't do space the way we do.

763
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:11,000
It's it's kind of interesting,
but I kind of I love all of

764
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:12,640
those.
I think you've like, I'm going

765
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,000
to have to give you credit in
the acknowledgments, which is

766
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,240
also one of my favorite things
to read in a book.

767
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,000
Like who you I'll be like, if it
wasn't for Judy, I would not

768
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,480
have started my novel of home,
which just makes the most sense.

769
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,400
Like how did I not know that?
It was like way too close.

770
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,800
It was just right here in front
of my face.

771
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,760
And what you just said, what you
just said, I do exact the first

772
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,880
thing I read in a book, The
acknowledgements, Right.

773
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,080
Are you like that too?
Yeah, because I think for me

774
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,960
it's getting to know the author
right off the bat.

775
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:56,040
It's the most revealing thing.
Sometimes if it's a novel, it

776
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,440
may be the most revealing thing
about the author, at least the

777
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,000
most obviously revealing thing
about the author.

778
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,680
And so I always read the
acknowledgements first, don't

779
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,520
you?
And I work on my own

780
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,280
acknowledgements.
Pardon.

781
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,200
I just like to see if I know
anyone.

782
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,960
I'm like, oh, oh.
Oh, definitely.

783
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,680
Do I know anyone?
And, and oh, they didn't even

784
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,400
mention their family.
Wonder what that means, you

785
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,600
know, and yet I know that they
have a family.

786
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,680
I mean, oh, and then I'm off on
that.

787
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,120
And I work on my own
acknowledgements for so long.

788
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,360
I mean, and it's not that I do a
great job of it by any means.

789
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,200
You can't tell that I worked on
it a long time, but it's so

790
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:45,560
important whom you think and
whom you recognize, and all of

791
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:53,400
that is important too.
But I think I think it's

792
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:58,360
important now.
What's no, let me say it

793
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:03,280
differently.
What I'm happy about is that I

794
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,560
think more and more people are
reading memoir now and

795
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,280
appreciating it.
I mean, I can remember I joined

796
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:15,440
a book club many years ago and.
But I was writing memoir at the

797
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,360
time.
Maybe I'd written my second

798
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,640
memoir at that point, and I was
reading a lot of memoirs.

799
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,400
So I brought a memoir to the
book club for my, you know,

800
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:30,040
contribution.
And I mean, this darn memoir had

801
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,600
won the National Book Award.
It was not too shabby.

802
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,680
You know, it's really a
wonderful memoir.

803
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:42,080
And the comments were, well, all
she does is talk about herself.

804
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,120
So, Ken?
I just, yeah, I think I went off

805
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:50,960
camera almost.
I just bent over.

806
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,600
I was like, no.
Oh.

807
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:56,560
It just made me sick for so many
reasons.

808
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,840
I think memoir now would
probably help people reconnect

809
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:07,400
right to our our linked humanity
instead of rushing to judgment

810
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:11,840
to like sit in that story.
And like how I did.

811
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,000
I always look for ways in that
which I connect with someone.

812
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,600
Like we could have different
lifestyles or different

813
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:23,920
histories, but there has to be
some universal thing where we do

814
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,400
connect.
And if we don't, then I find

815
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,040
that fascinating.
I'll dig into that as well.

816
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,280
Right.
Right, right.

817
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:36,280
No, I mean, I look at memoir as
being like a fireside chat with

818
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,840
a really good friend.
I mean, I love the intimacy of

819
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,800
memoir.
It feels so personal.

820
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:47,520
And I think also because I
started out in poetry, memoir

821
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:53,280
feels very close to poetry for
me, that personal part of it and

822
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,280
the intimacy of it.
And the reflection, which you

823
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,760
know, we sort of touched on a
while ago, the reflection is so

824
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:06,120
important because you really get
to know the memoirs through his

825
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:12,200
or her reflection.
I started in poetry too.

826
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,680
Oh.
I didn't realize that.

827
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:16,680
You might have to hear from me
more often, that's all I'm

828
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,200
saying.
Like I did, look me, I even

829
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,280
pulled my old book.
I won a contest.

830
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:23,680
I did.
I won a contest and I got a

831
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,720
little book published.
Oh look at the oh I love the

832
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:30,560
book cover.
The cover is fabulous.

833
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,280
Look, I'm smoking.
Oh, you are so glamorous.

834
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:40,880
Yes, so glamorous, I think.
And your dress is beautiful.

835
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,120
When you said I won a contest,
it made me think.

836
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,560
The first poem I wrote as an
adult, I entered in the

837
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:55,200
Charlotte Writers Club poetry
contest, and I won first prize

838
00:52:55,200 --> 00:53:00,080
and I won $100.
And then I wrote a second poem

839
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:04,040
and I entered it in the North
Carolina Poetry Society contest,

840
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,240
and I won a prize, first prize,
and I won $100.

841
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:13,160
And I thought, wow, you know,
I'm going to make a fortune in

842
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:20,120
poetry and it's so easy to win
prizes.

843
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,800
Well of course nothing happened
after that for like 3 years.

844
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,480
You know, it was just this
random weird thing that happened

845
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,920
with two poems.
Anyway, when you said I won a

846
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,440
contest?
I did.

847
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:37,120
I won a contest as A at this
publisher.

848
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,320
I think it was, I think they do
self-publishing now.

849
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,080
But this was like back when my
daughter was little or did I

850
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:45,480
even have her yet?
I can't remember.

851
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,960
It was a long time ago.
And it it was like, I was like,

852
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,280
oh, what if I dug up all my old
writing?

853
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,960
So it was like poems from even
like high school, which were so

854
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,640
sentimental through to the age I
was.

855
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,680
And I kind of ordered them and
they're like, you won.

856
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,960
And I go into everything not
thinking anything.

857
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:04,120
And I was like, Oh my gosh, I
won.

858
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:05,640
They're like, we're going to
publish your book.

859
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,640
I was like, oh, and then so it
must have been after I was

860
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:10,920
married.
Obviously that's my wedding

861
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,920
picture, but at at my wedding I
was like, I always wanted to

862
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,000
take.
I tell people I have a snarky

863
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,440
sense of humor.
I'm very dry but I was like,

864
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,800
would it be like if I was like
all beautiful but like sitting

865
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,360
on the toilet smoking?
A cigarette smoking a cigarette,

866
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,680
it's one of the best covers I've
ever seen, I have to tell you

867
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,600
that.
But she's like, you're only

868
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:32,600
going to do.
This I was like.

869
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,880
I'm going to do it.
When you just were talking about

870
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:37,600
the.
Poems that you wrote in high

871
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:43,280
school.
Last week, in fact, I went to

872
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:50,800
the funeral of my 8th grade
boyfriend who whom I was madly

873
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:56,600
in love with, who dropped me.
And I wrote so many poems about

874
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,480
him.
And while I was standing, I

875
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,720
mean, it was a graveside service
and I'm standing there in the

876
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:07,680
cemetery, you know, thinking
about Charles and the 8th grade.

877
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:13,680
And I could recite in my mind
one of the poems that I wrote

878
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:20,760
about him when he dropped me.
You know again now and then, you

879
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,120
know the travelling.
Between the.

880
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,480
The the world's lines, I can
tell you.

881
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,200
I'll.
Tell you 2 lines that came to me

882
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,280
because I had.
OK, I'll tell you the lines

883
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,160
first.
Do you now go with Linda?

884
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,440
If not her then who?
And that's it.

885
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,880
Do you now go with Linda?
If not her then who?

886
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,920
And because I had heard he was
going with a girl named Linda

887
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,760
from another school.
And what I loved about that

888
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,720
second line, and I think the
reason I remember it is I love

889
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:03,840
the sounds in it.
If not her, then who I liked her

890
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,800
and who and the sounds of that
in the line.

891
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:12,840
So I think, you know, I did a
little something right in that

892
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,960
poem, in the texture of it.
And I think that's why I

893
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,800
remember it.
But Oh my gosh, those early

894
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:25,480
poems, those early poems.
Oh yeah, they.

895
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:27,800
They are special.
But I have one of the.

896
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,280
Things that survived all my
moves are some of my really old

897
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,000
journals and I don't often look
at them.

898
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,600
But I was thinking about this
again while reading your book

899
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:43,080
was right when I was younger,
before social media existed,

900
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:47,360
when life was better and easier
personally, But when right when

901
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:52,520
I I felt change happening, I
would often read where I used to

902
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,120
be to appreciate maybe where I
was headed.

903
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,680
And I wish that I, I mean, so I
think I do that like with my

904
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:02,720
writing, especially with memoir,
like you said.

905
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:10,040
But I think with aging, I need
to adapt that a little bit more

906
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:15,200
than I do like.
And I don't know how to explain

907
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,160
it to anyone, maybe who's
younger, but you know, you'll

908
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,520
wake up and then you'll look in
the mirror and you don't match.

909
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:25,480
Or all the noises that my body
makes getting up out of bed.

910
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:31,240
Sometimes the castanette.
The forget that's.

911
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,400
A good.
One yeah, or or like the memory

912
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,440
failure like.
Really this week I've had a lot

913
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,120
of moments in the kitchen with
my husband where I'm like,

914
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,480
you're struggling to.
Hear who needs to remember.

915
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,800
Yeah, yeah, no, that was it.
That was it.

916
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,600
It's the umm.
Yeah, I can't remember.

917
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:54,640
Yeah, I think what's.
Important is we age What well, I

918
00:57:54,640 --> 00:58:00,800
say what helps me is to think
that I've really been through

919
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:05,240
these same stages before that
this is like that.

920
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:10,040
I mean, I think the bad thing is
that's why old people like to

921
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,000
talk about the past so much,
because this is like that, you

922
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,640
know?
And then and when, for example,

923
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,160
I'm with my kids who are
wonderful to us, I mean, they're

924
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,000
so available to us.
I'm very lucky.

925
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,520
But when I talk about the past
too much, I can see their faces

926
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,520
just sort of glaze over and
which I understand because I

927
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,080
don't like it when old people do
that with me.

928
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:41,960
But that's why we do it, because
this is like that old ages, like

929
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:44,360
young age.
We've been through these stages

930
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,840
before.
We've been here before.

931
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:52,520
We just have.
We're not a lot different from

932
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:58,480
who we are from who we were when
we were a senior in high school.

933
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:02,280
And yet.
We are different, we.

934
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,000
We have.
Gone through a life up to this

935
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:11,840
point and but I think it is
helpful to see the parallels.

936
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,760
That helps me for some reason.
No, I like that.

937
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:17,440
That's the theme in the book.
Right.

938
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,720
You're like each Genesis story,
right?

939
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,160
We're going back and they're so
similar.

940
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:26,680
They're so similar.
They really, really are.

941
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,240
Yeah.
And that's the fun of writing

942
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,840
memoir.
I'll put in a plug for writing

943
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:38,560
memoir, and that is the reward
for writing memoir is self

944
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,080
knowledge.
And what could be more valuable

945
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,480
than that, You know?
I mean, we're looking to

946
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:49,840
discover the hidden patterns in
ourselves.

947
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,240
This was me then, this is me
now.

948
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:59,440
How have I changed?
How have I stayed the same and

949
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:03,920
all of that is is good.
I mean, it's good to gain that

950
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:07,280
self knowledge.
It's good to be that self aware.

951
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:13,520
I think to be on to ourselves so
you you are innately.

952
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,920
Self assured.
At least that is my impression

953
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:21,120
of you, right?
And I know I'm not like younger,

954
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,800
definitely.
I wasn't like full of insecurity

955
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,800
and like owning my own
creativity and owning my voice

956
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,400
was a big transition for my 30s.
For me.

957
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:32,120
I was like, yeah, no more of
that.

958
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,960
I don't know how to not do that.
But I have to unlearn that

959
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,040
people pleasing make it better
for you by making it all worse

960
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,880
for me.
But like I also, as the aging

961
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:46,760
thing kind of comes in, I
remember my first bout of

962
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:51,000
feeling strangely invisible was
becoming a parent because I

963
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:54,880
became a mom at 39.
And so I had a whole career and

964
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,880
I was with 250 people daily.
And then suddenly I was alone

965
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,760
and responsible for this little
person.

966
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,120
And it didn't really, I had no
family around me was like,

967
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:09,680
really figure it out yourself.
And and then I didn't, I was in

968
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,120
Holly anymore.
I was her mother, right?

969
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:18,720
And this wife and, and all those
things that I had define myself

970
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,960
by and with, even though I
really wanted to be a mother, I

971
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,800
and it was a burning desire in
me.

972
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:29,720
I had no idea the invisibility
that also came with it.

973
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:35,920
And how I feel that echo that
sameness now in my mid 50s,

974
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:41,480
right where some people look at
you like next, you know, like

975
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:45,000
next.
And I can see it in their eyes.

976
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:52,280
And I'm like, no, exactly, no.
You should be 83 and go to

977
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:57,720
Dick's Sporting Goods to buy
sneakers and you will feel so.

978
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,720
Invisible.
Because they would so much

979
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:08,800
rather weigh on a runner who's
32 and running marathons then an

980
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,440
83 year old who's looking for
sneakers for the walks that she

981
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,960
takes every day.
Yeah, that's the most invisible.

982
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:19,400
I felt as an old person exactly
that.

983
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,960
Yeah.
And I just experienced it

984
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:23,360
recently.
That's awful.

985
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,120
But in a way you.
Know it's.

986
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:30,640
Really, whatever, it's OK.
Though it's OK I.

987
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:35,560
Mean it's fine and you're
talking about self-confidence.

988
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:40,120
Looking back, I think I was
pretty self confident to do the

989
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:45,720
things I did, but I don't know
that I felt self confident.

990
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:49,520
I have to say that.
I mean, I was self confident

991
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:53,880
about certain things, but in a
lot of ways because I was shy

992
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,600
and I was quiet, you know, I, I
don't know that I had

993
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,640
self-confidence in every area of
my life that would I would have

994
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:05,560
to say that to be honest.
You talk in your book about.

995
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:10,280
I was explaining before that I'm
sentimental and you had those

996
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,520
pins.
Do you have anything that you're

997
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:16,960
sharing with your children and
grandchildren and extended

998
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,240
family that means something to
you that you hope might mean

999
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,320
something to them and you're
talking about?

1000
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:31,640
Real possessions, yeah.
I have.

1001
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:38,400
I have so many of those things.
I have so many of those things

1002
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:43,800
that they would need to rent a
storage space if they took

1003
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,240
everything I wanted them to
have.

1004
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,080
And you're just trying to.
Think of 1.

1005
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:54,840
Particular like maybe my heart
pen that my father gave me right

1006
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:56,960
before he died.
That's what you're thinking of.

1007
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,800
Well, yeah, I would love for
somebody to have that and for

1008
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:05,200
that to mean a lot to them.
But I have so many of those

1009
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:08,240
things.
And what worries me, and here's

1010
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,600
the flip side of that, what
worries me.

1011
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:12,840
I have a son and daughter and
they're both married.

1012
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:17,520
My daughter is as sentimental as
I am and she is going to want

1013
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,880
everything.
And she has a small house.

1014
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:24,040
Where is she going to put my
baby grand piano?

1015
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:28,840
Where is she going to put?
You know all this.

1016
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:33,320
Stuff that I've accumulated,
right?

1017
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:34,960
Exactly.
She'll be.

1018
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:38,320
Stuck with the same dilemma.
Won't won't she where to move?

1019
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:44,040
I love that.
Yeah, I think like I was saying

1020
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,560
like 'cause my.
Grandma, I have the bowl for my

1021
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:49,200
grandfather.
He wore like this little fishing

1022
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,760
hat when he was outside.
And I have his Bible.

1023
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,920
Not that I ever remember him
reading it, but after he passed

1024
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,560
I found it and I saw his
handwriting in it.

1025
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:05,920
Oh, oh, of course.
Oh, and that's so, that's so

1026
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:07,560
personal.
Yeah.

1027
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:09,920
So that's.
Like how I'm sentimental.

1028
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,640
It's like that little.
Maybe quirky but like.

1029
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,160
So.
Then I also have one of his

1030
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,320
watches and I'm pretty sure all
his watches were, I thought the

1031
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,880
five and dime.
It's like they there was like no

1032
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:25,880
money really, and but it was
just that it was Grandpa Sands.

1033
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:30,200
There was one thing my son is.
Not as sentimental as my

1034
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,360
daughter.
Plus, I mean, what kind of

1035
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:37,400
things do you pass on to a son?
It's not the same as jewelry and

1036
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,120
things like that that you pass
on to a daughter.

1037
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,840
But there was one thing that my
son wanted and it was his

1038
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:48,480
grandfather's watch talking
about a watch which my my

1039
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:53,400
husband's father.
And so my husband went ahead and

1040
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:58,800
gave the watch to our son years
ago because he, he really

1041
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:03,320
cherished it.
He was so happy to have it and

1042
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:05,200
their house was.
Broken in.

1043
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:11,000
On and the watch was stolen and
that was the one thing that my

1044
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:16,160
son really wanted.
So there's also a lesson in

1045
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,400
that.
You know, we, we hope that the

1046
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:24,240
things we used to own will bring
back the person, but really

1047
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:26,600
we're going to bring back the
person anyway.

1048
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,560
We don't need the things to
symbolize them.

1049
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:34,200
They're already and our hearts,
they're already inside us in a

1050
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:38,040
lot of ways.
So it's just things and whether

1051
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:42,720
they have them or not true, the
memories are there.

1052
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,600
OK, so we know that.
You're unhappy when you're not.

1053
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:51,000
Writing and I and you talk a lot
about your age and what comes

1054
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,720
next.
So spoiler again, apparently she

1055
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:57,640
hasn't moved.
Just saying everyone she hasn't

1056
01:06:57,640 --> 01:06:59,600
moved.
I don't know, in a few months

1057
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:02,760
when this comes out if she will
have moved then I'm not, I'm not

1058
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:07,240
thinking so, by the way, but So
what are you working on now?

1059
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,000
Are you going to dabble in
poetry?

1060
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:10,880
Because you're also reflecting
back.

1061
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:15,480
Maybe you'll win a new contest.
Another $100.

1062
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:19,160
That will make 3. $100 that I
won in poetry, which would be

1063
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:22,800
great.
No, I just finished another

1064
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:28,400
memoir, in fact, and I'm sort of
revising it a little bit, but

1065
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:32,120
I'm really mostly finished with
it, so I'm staying.

1066
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,520
Well, I had, I was really
working on both memoirs a little

1067
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:39,640
bit at the same time during the
pandemic.

1068
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:42,360
I had lots of time like
everybody else did.

1069
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:47,400
And so I wrote and I really, I
hated the pandemic for what it

1070
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:51,920
was doing and the fear and, and
the loss that it created.

1071
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:56,920
But I happen to love the
pandemic because all I had to do

1072
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,360
was write.
And that's my dream day is to

1073
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,200
write.
So I ended up by accident

1074
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,800
writing this other memoir that
now I'm revising and finishing

1075
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:10,160
up.
So no, I'll stay with memoir.

1076
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:13,000
That's what I love.
That's what I read and that's

1077
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:16,479
what I like to write.
I love that.

1078
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:18,439
Well, now I'm going to have.
To come find you.

1079
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:21,359
Locally to get used to because I
have your signature and all your

1080
01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:24,240
other books, but not quite yet
on this one.

1081
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,120
So I want to make sure everyone
knows the title and if you're

1082
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:29,720
watching, it's the rest of our
lives.

1083
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:31,560
And she had an artist do the
cover.

1084
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,279
How did you decide that?
Well, because all your other

1085
01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:39,640
ones look pictures.
I'm doing double vision.

1086
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,640
So the artist.
Who did the cover is my

1087
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:48,640
daughter.
It's actually my daughter.

1088
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:55,600
Laurie Smithwick created 100
portal paintings, and they're

1089
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:59,920
all about this big.
And when I, when the book was

1090
01:08:59,920 --> 01:09:03,279
going to be published, I asked
the publisher would they

1091
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:07,120
consider using one of my
daughter's paintings, and they

1092
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,720
said they would love to look at
it.

1093
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:13,600
So I chose the portal painting
that I like the best.

1094
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:17,040
And Laurie actually designed the
whole cover, it turned out.

1095
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:19,800
So that's all her artwork.
Yeah.

1096
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,960
She, she was a graphic designer
for many years, and she did a

1097
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,680
lot of book covers.
So that was, you know, natural

1098
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,200
for her to do.
I love it.

1099
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:29,920
It makes it more like.
I don't know.

1100
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:31,720
That's more.
Huggy to me, that's like even

1101
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:33,600
better that your daughter got to
do that.

1102
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,560
I love that.
And I love the idea of a portal.

1103
01:09:39,279 --> 01:09:43,399
Because it goes with your whole.
Genesis story over and over and

1104
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:44,600
over.
Yeah, our.

1105
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,319
Big question is when our
daughter goes to school do we

1106
01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:49,319
stay here?
And my answer is I want her to

1107
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:52,240
be able to come home from
college and know her room.

1108
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:55,800
But after that, who knows?
Yeah.

1109
01:09:56,040 --> 01:10:01,120
After college, yeah.
We agree.

1110
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:05,240
So I you have like 5 more years.
Miss Judy to stay in that spot,

1111
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:08,600
and then I'll be like, OK, you
had five more books come out.

1112
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,200
Are you moving?
I know.

1113
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:13,800
But thank you so much for being.
On my podcast.

1114
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:18,400
I like to end every episode by
asking the same question, which

1115
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:22,360
is if you came with a warning
label, what would it be?

1116
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:25,920
So it's it's so.
Funny that you're.

1117
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:32,320
Asking that question right this
minute because if you notice, 2

1118
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:35,040
seconds ago.
I gave you advice, right?

1119
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:37,520
Don't move while your daughter's
in college.

1120
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:41,320
She needs to come home to her
room while she's in college,

1121
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:42,600
right?
I gave you advice.

1122
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:47,320
OK, that would be the more the
warning label on Judy Goldman

1123
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:50,400
is.
I love to give advice.

1124
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:56,680
And what's so bad about that is
I believe that I have this

1125
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:01,680
uncanny ability to know what
everybody else should be doing

1126
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:05,160
with their lives.
You know, I mean, my older

1127
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:09,120
brother used to say that my six
favorite words in the English

1128
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:14,880
language are Let me ask your
advice, Judy, you know, because

1129
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:19,880
and, and the I have to say this
also, the main character in my

1130
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:23,480
first novel was a therapist on
the radio.

1131
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,400
Why did I give her that job?
Because.

1132
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:30,960
I would love to be a therapist
on the radio.

1133
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:34,520
I would love to do that.
So that would be the warning

1134
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,080
label for me.
Because not everybody really

1135
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:41,720
wants your advice, right?
No, I do know that.

1136
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,640
I do know that you.
Gave me so many.

1137
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:49,920
Gifts in this episode which?
Was helping me frame the memoir

1138
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:54,240
that I have been running away.
You gave me a home.

1139
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:58,600
But that's I no, that's like
I'll give you another $100.

1140
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,680
I'll I'll pay you the $100 for
your poem of advice.

1141
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,960
That was epic.
And I really hope that whomever

1142
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,160
is listening to this, if you
write memoir or you were curious

1143
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,760
about it, that that you realize
you can start at any age.

1144
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,600
There is no limit.
It's just a matter of like

1145
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,520
starting that one word at a
time, which we all know I I

1146
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:23,120
listen to your Wiley cash
interview and you were like,

1147
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:25,080
your friends were like you.
Well, you're like, I don't know

1148
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:26,680
what to write next.
They're like, get out your

1149
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:28,280
journal.
You're like, I already know that

1150
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:34,440
that cracked me up.
So I.

1151
01:12:34,440 --> 01:12:37,320
Started this.
Hoping to help people connect

1152
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:40,160
with each other.
I hope you look for friends who

1153
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:42,960
are not in your age bracket
because you know, our life

1154
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,640
experience and each of those
Genesis that Judy writes so

1155
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:50,840
beautifully about in her book is
is a treasure and it just makes

1156
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:53,280
everything better.
So thank you again, Judy, for

1157
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:54,880
being on the Holly Hughes
podcast.

1158
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:57,560
Holly, thank you so much for
this.

1159
01:12:57,560 --> 01:12:59,920
Invitation.
I love this.

1160
01:12:59,920 --> 01:13:02,720
I really did it.
It's so much fun to sit and talk

1161
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,280
with you.
And we had that connection years

1162
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,560
ago where we met and then this
long period of time.

1163
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:13,200
So I'm so glad to reconnect with
you and thank you for inviting

1164
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:14,960
me.
I loved every minute of it.

1165
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:15,800
Thank you.