The Writer’s Rollercoaster: Author, Editor and Writing Instructor Betsy Thorpe Talks About Finding Your Path in Writing, the Role of an Editor, and Embracing the Emotional Journey

0:05 Betsy, thank you for coming to the Holly Hughes Podcast. I am exceedingly excited to have you. First of all, because you're a friend. Second of all, because I know how talented you are. And third of all, when we do get together, I don't always get to ask you everything. I've always wanted to ask you. And so I'm going to go there today and you don't get worried because I know you know my personality, but. I'm excited to be here, Holly. Thank you. Ask away because. I want to talk so my podcast is about leading and living a creative life and what that means and what I I'm gonna get emotional 'cause I know you, but like what I honestly admire about you.

0:48 Seriously, I'm getting emotional. Well, you're an outstanding human, right? You're a single mom, which is like everything that you've accomplished in Raising 2. Amazing grown people right now, like I'm in the midst of getting ready for college. I and you've done this twice and no, I can't, but you go from this very sound editorial mindset. You are an amazing editor. You take sentences everyone should know. I've hired Betsy, so I worked with her. But you take my wildly emotional at times work my raw material that I've tried to fix and know where I get stuck and you pull it out and shape it into what I meant, right. And we're very different people.

1:39 But you can you have that ability. And then from I will call that a pragmatic, even though it's not, it's creative too. But I'm more of a pragmatic mind. Then you time travel literally in your own creative writing and you become Hope Carol. You become a whole other woman in a whole other romance. Like I'm getting goosebumps again, literally like they're right here. And so you have this duality and creativity. And so how do you do that? Like, how do you define or explain your journey? Because you've also worked with the big publishers, big traditional publishing. Yeah, I think I would approach that, that I've always had kind of creativity from a business point of view. And so for me, it's never about, you know, let's do some free writing or let's do some journaling. I love all that, but I kind of always want to have an end goal, both in my creative writing and as an editor. So I always want to bring people to publication no matter where they are.

2:58 And so that started, you know, in my early days as an editorial assistant, I just saw the realities of the business and what we were looking for and what we weren't looking for and what we could make work and what we couldn't. And then growing to become, you know, full editor and then an indie editor has been fabulous because I get to work with people sometimes from start to finish, book and beyond in a way that I didn't get to as an in house editor. So that's really been cool for me. But the duality is, yes, it's a duality because I came at writing novels, as, you know, a novice.

3:44 And even though I'm an English major, I'm an experienced editor. We're all grasping, trying to find the right words, trying to figure out how to do descriptions and dialogue and romance, and, you know, just all the things that we need to pull into a book and make it work. And so that's been very useful for me as an editor as well to see, you know, what people struggle with. So it kind of enhanced my editing business, I think, even more. And I have a lot more advice as well-being on that side of the table. Yeah, I want to know, did you always want to be a writer? Was that like, really? Yes, definitely. I mean, I think from the time I read The Chronicles of Narnia, I just wanted to recreate that sort of experience, which is probably how I got into time travel.

4:35 But I like those mysterious doors, you know, in closets and where might they lead? And to new adventures that are much more exciting than the life that I was leading, you know, in boring suburban Connecticut. And so, yeah, I just have always thought, you know, writing is exciting. At first, I thought it was going to be a travel writer and that. Yeah. And. And then I quickly found out in my first job at Conde Nast that all those writers are freelance. Oh my God. Traveler I I have the funniest story about this so right.

5:15 I worked in film and TV and I remembered that I wanted to own my own creativity. So I started taking writing classes at UCLA extensions because I always wanted to write, but I didn't know the business of writing. I didn't know how to start. And I, I didn't know how to write anymore because I'd spent years on sets, right, doing budgets and negotiations. So I, one of the first classes I took was a travel writer. And that teacher, he hated me. That he, he did not like my personality. He did not like my writing and he wasn't editorial. He didn't teach me to be better. He would just try to publicly embarrass me. What? Yeah, cuz I did a trip to Hawaii and I didn't enjoy it.

5:56 And I remember trying to think, well, how do I write about going to Hawaii and not enjoying it at all? Right, Everyone's dream vacation. Yeah, that's such a good story though, and. He got so rude that one of the men in the class to this day is now a friend. His name is Adam. Adam was like, dude, you're so rude. Like, what are you doing? And then the teacher's response was, are you 2 dating? Oh, jeez. And then everyone in the room is like only twenty of us. It was small. Was like, EW. So it was like 1. I was like, well, I guess maybe God's just telling me, don't travel right. I don't know. Or you just had the wrong teacher because that's part of the experience of going back and forth. And some editors are some indie editors I imagine are like that and they'll just shut you down.

6:42 And I've always been of the encouraging like, what are you doing? Well, what do you need help with? How can I help you? But those sort of teachers should not be teaching I. Just it was an experience. For that's sad. That's sad. I'm sorry that happened. To you. But that's part of your gift though. You do find the magic the good stuff. Yeah. And don't you think that's a talent? Like, is that innate in you because you're kind? Or is it because you also understand the business and you're like, well, if we expand on this, then we can sell it and publish it? Which part of your brain is engaging that? Probably, yeah, multiple sides, because I do see the kind of hurt child within every author that's trying to express themselves and trying to solve a problem. It be a fictional or nonfiction.

7:36 So they're trying to either help readers or entertain readers or, you know, teach readers something. So. But we're all kind of slightly damaged in a way, and we're all so vulnerable that I know how hard it is to bring your work to somebody and say, please, you know, please help me with it. And a lot of people approach me with almost an embarrassment, like I'm not an experienced author. I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm just like, consider me like a doctor. Like, I see all these problems all the time. So don't think, you know, I, I don't have my judgy lens on you per SE. I just need to know how to how to make this book feel better. That's really how you feel working with you? Because I don't want it.

8:30 I want people to understand that when it comes to having and finding an editor that works, first of all, there are really good ones and they're there are ones that are less good, that might be really particular about grammar in a weird way, as opposed to fleshing out story or plot. Like you can come to editorial on many parts of your journey, right? Like where you are. I think you said this to me, which I always take as a compliment. You were like, you know what your shortcoming is, right? Like I do, I'm like, I know I have a blind spot here. I don't know how to fix it because I think it's on the page right? But everyone is telling me no it is not on the page.

9:13 Right, right you. Need to fix that, but there is a supportive editor while still holding you to task right? Because writing is rewriting. Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, I think you can absolutely do both. Because if you're not offering solutions along with the empathy about what a hard journey this is and you know, all of that sort of stuff, then what are you bringing to the table? So you have to bring solutions. And I, I once got a little present after a book came out from these authors who are at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

9:53 And it was this big book on Children's Health. And I can't remember it's, I'm, I'm not at home, so I don't have it in front of me. But she sent me a little a little frame that was had puzzles, puzzle pieces kind of on the outside of the frame. And it said, Betsy, thanks for making all the puzzle pieces fit together. And that's just stuck with me. I was like, yeah, it kind of does feel that way. Like you've got a 500 piece, 1000 piece or in the case of long manuscripts, 80,100 thousand piece puzzle that you need to figure out how my is this put together the right way and what are some pieces that are missing? Often times, you know, how can we get those pieces in here and how can we arrange them in a way that's entertaining and people will keep reading.

10:47 So I do really think about this process as as kind of always different puzzles that need to be solved. Yeah, and you help people with book proposals too, because you and I also did some of that for nonfiction. So if anyone out there listening does nonfiction, that is a whole other kind of writing. Yes, and it's very there has to be. I I came in and here's a story that people may not realize happens, but a lot of in house editors no longer have the time to solve problems that are happening in books. So you sell a nonfiction book based on a proposal, which is an overview, an outline and two sample chapters, and then you get a contract based on that.

11:38 And then the book might come in and no, it's not what I hoped it would be. So I've had a couple in house editors reach out to me and say I don't have time in my schedule to fix this and I might have to cancel this contract if this author can't fix this book. So let me connect you with his agent and let me you know he'll have to hire you to fix his book. And so that happens sometimes in Big 5 publishing that the book is not, you know, ready for prime time and your editor can't fix it because they just don't have the bandwidth. Do you think that had to do with expectation or did they write a book?

12:27 Like, you know, sometimes a proposal isn't the book that you write because you have different thoughts. So is it a reasonable expectation? Was the writing that up to snuff? Was it like or both? In this particular case, so something I like to emphasize in nonfiction is even though it's, you know, prescriptive, you have to continually tell stories. So he didn't have enough illustrative stories throughout to keep the reader engaged. It was all just advice and we couldn't see how that advice was playing out with his clients.

13:08 So that really wasn't working for his editor. And you know, it was just, it's just boring without stories. So we, we had to put some in. I'm like. OK. I thought as mean as you get. Well, that was kind of. Boring. It was kind of boring. Yeah. So. So that was an interesting project to take on, kind of. It had been well thought out. He had all the credentials in the world. He worked with people all the time, just like you as an expert. You know, he had all of that going for him. But what he didn't realize was that he wasn't filling it up with illustrative stories. That's really fascinating. I probably usually have too many stories. Well, it's better to have too many stories than too few, because then I could say, well, this is not your strongest 1, so let's pull this one.

13:57 So that's totally fine. I'd rather see that than have none and just be Do this, do that, do this, do that. Yeah, I think I know my messiest chapter I ever sent you, nonfiction wise. You're like, yeah, that was a little long. And I was like, my trauma is all on the page. My trauma is all on the page. You're like, OK, maybe if you reorganize it that way. See again, that is really the magic of a good of a really good editor. Like I know I can put something through Grammarly 1000 times or or try to fix my grammar, but I am a typo queen. Like, if you know me, you're gonna have a typo. I can look at it a bajillion ways. And everybody does, yeah.

14:40 Do you have a relationship? Because I've actually just discovered that I'm dyslexic at this age. I have discovered I'm dyslexic. Because my gosh. I was right. No, this is really funny. I was at a wedding with my daughter and I was trying to learn Korean right? Because we all know I'm obsessed and I was running into some issues besides having difficulty getting the words from my brain out of my mouth, learning that I'm a throat talker and Korean is very much in the front of your mouth. So that was different for me. But I was having a hard time seeing letters like they just started blending and I the Korean. Letters. I was realizing that I was seeing things in shapes and then my daughter and I are sitting out to dinner before like the day before the wedding and and I was explaining some of my issues.

15:30 She's like looking at me like I'm an idiot because a teenager does. And she was like, do you know you're dyslexic? I was like, what are you talking about? People who are dyslexic can't read. I read constantly and all the time, right? And she's like, OK, no. And she went through cuz she took her psychology class, right? And so she knew all the tests. And I did the tests in like 4 out of five things. I was like, Oh my gosh, pegged at, I was pegged at wow. I was like, this is kind of why I see the world. I do color a lot. I have to do an association to get it right. She's like, did you ever write letters backwards? I was like, yeah, I didn't see it when I wrote it, but I saw it when I read it, if that makes any sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

16:17 Definitely like would PS&B's I'd mess up? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, And like things like that. And I was like, Oh my God, I I am. And then my Korean teacher's like, no, Holly Korean's just. Hard. Well, of course. Yeah, that's. But yeah, but I think that sometimes it is when I think something is in an order. Again, editing can come in and be like outside perspective. Well, and that's important because I'm, I have editors as well for my own books, right? So I can't see it in my own writing. I just, you know, I'm throwing a bunch of things down on the page and hoping that it makes sense.

16:58 And especially I'm, I'm writing this book on, on the emotional journey of, of being a writer. And I'm just jumping stories left, right and center into all of the different chapters. I don't know if they make sense where they are. I don't know if I've already said them before. I'm repeating myself because I'm doing this at night and on weekends. So I'm not fully doing this full time, so I look at editors as kind of like almost lifeguards or something. That's a nice way to put it. That's how we're pulling you out of the surf because I'm just so grateful for the people who are helping me catch all of these mistakes that I'm just, you know, putting down Willy nilly and and giving me some focus and structure about things that I need to work on myself. So, and this was true for the time travel trilogy as well, that I just needed that focus of another person who just sits down and their only job is to focus on your work. And so beta readers are great, friends are great, all of that. But when you assign somebody to work on your book, you really want that and need that focus of kind of, you know, a certain number of hours to get the work done because otherwise wise it might be half assed and and your

18:31 producer told me, I could swear. So we can, we can because this is for adults only. Well, anyone can hear it, but you know, we don't have to censor ourselves. We're grown beings. So I want, so there's like so many things we can go to in that. First of all, I want to hear about your next book, but I want to talk about, like, what it was to choose a life of being a creative person and choosing the traditional route at first, right? Like what? Like, was it a conscious choice? Was it like you got lucky out of school? I know you got published very young, right? You were like in a big magazine at 21 of like, I couldn't even imagine how amazing that felt. Yeah, it was. It was a series of fortunate events in my case. So.

19:18 So yeah, I got published in the New York Times in an op-ed article when I came back from my junior year abroad, which was a highly exciting time, creative creatively for me and friends wise and travel wise. And there were just, there's just so much going on. And when I came back, there was kind of this almost disappointment that I was going back to the real world. And, you know, that adventure was over. And everybody was telling me the best year of your life is over because. Yeah. Who are these people?

20:00 Debbie Downers, but it's 20. One your life is. Yeah, your life is over. It's all downhill from here, sweetie pie. So yeah, it's so I I happened to meet. I was lucky enough that a friend of my dad's colleague was an editor at The New York Times. And he said, you know, I just had an informational interview with him about, Gee, you're going to be graduating soon, what should you do? And I was like, well, I want to be a writer. And he's like, well, what have you written? 0 Have you contributed to the school newspaper? No. Did you write for the literary magazine?

20:42 No. Have you written anything? Well, nothing really, except Diaries and letters to my parents and friends because back then we wrote letters. So he was like, well, tell you what, we're doing this series called Voices of a New Generation, and why don't you just try your hand at doing something, you know, just writing 305 hundred words on whatever you want to write about. Send it to me. And he was probably thinking, there's no way, you know, there's no way that I'm going to publish it. And so I went home and I had an assignment, which is so important. I feel like people need assignments sometime. And, and I went home and I wrote it. And they actually, I remember getting that call and and they were like, yeah, we're going to publish it. And it was just incredible.

21:36 So that led to me getting my first job at Conde Nast magazines. And I was interning there. Not interning, I guess it was out of college, but it was kind of. So they. Were in New York, though. Physically, I was. Physically, I grew up outside of New York City so I could commute into Manhattan, which is a very lucky thing as I'm finding now with my new graduate who wants possibly to be in book publishing. But a lot of people don't end up getting into book publishing because it's too expensive to move. The pay is not good. You know, you have to immediately find 4 roommates to, you know, to team up with on like greater Staten Island or something like that in order to have the privilege to work in the creative field. So I was lucky I had that advantage and did have roommates out of college who I could room and board with. But it was always my, my father's a banker. He's very pragmatic.

22:42 So therefore, you know, always looking for a corporate job, never, you know, benefits, all that sort of stuff. So I was always kind of of that mind that at first it has to be the corporate world. And so it's. So fascinating to me because, wait, my mom's an artist and my dad's an engineer, a chemical engineer. I knew I wanted to write very young. I wrote stories with my friends in it. I would write stories with the boys they had crushes with and I would make a little romance. I love them. I know it was so fun and and I wrote for my local newspaper. See, you were doing the things that I was. Supposed to be doing 0. Belief that I could do anything.

23:26 Zero My self esteem, my belief in any ability was 0 - 0. It was like so nothing. So I find that fascinating. Like you know how far I've come. But like that you were like, no, pragmatic, I didn't have anything. So I'll just start. I'll just start and do it. Yeah. I kind of believed. I thought I was a good writer. So I did have that belief in myself. And and shout out to Mrs. Lang in 10th grade English, who told me I was a good writer. Those early, like anybody who can tell a kid that they're a good writer. And I'm sad that. Did you not have that? No. Validation I. Don't also think, like, I don't know, that I would have been able to process it or hear it especially, right, Like, I moved as a junior, then my house burned down. Yeah.

24:12 So I wasn't the most stable, you know, as my last few years in high school. You had a lot of trauma to deal with that you weren't hearing the good messages. Yeah. Probably not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they were probably there like, Holly, you're really talented, but. I don't. I don't think I ever heard that. Right. I don't know. I mean, you've heard that I've always. Heard I'm brave. I've heard I'm brave. But really talented. No. No. Brave. Interesting. Well, brave. We'll have to examine that. Brave definitely is part of the whole writing process, right? Because people judge you and they're like, is this the best use of your time?

24:55 You know, you could be doing stuff that could be earning real money. So is this really how you should be spending your time? Let's talk about time. All right, you open the door. So OK, so you are a full time editor. I'm like you are busy. If people want to work with you, get in line, right? Honestly, Paul, now get in line, which I love for you because it should be like that. You, you're good at what you do, but so then you have X amount of hours. Do you limit the, the time? Because I know when I get in a creative zone, I don't really notice time. I'll forget to eat, I'll realize I'm cold. I'm like, oh, I have to pee. Like, you know all those things because you're in the zone. I also don't believe in balance.

25:40 I don't think you could cut something off and then do this for X amount of hours. I think it's rhythm in regular work and in creativity. How do you find that? Yeah, it probably is based on a level of exhaustion in that I only have so many hours in a day. So you're right, 9 to 5 is for editing. Then I cook dinner. Then I watch like a little bit of TV because I can't read after reading all day. And then I'll troop up to my bed and it'll be 9:00 PM, something like that. And then I'll, I'll start writing and I'll, when I was writing my trilogy, two books of which I had to write in seven months each under the contract.

26:27 I know it's crazy. So that that was a lesson in and of itself, but I had to write a certain number of words per night in order to have an output, which actually ended up being fabulous because it made me not look back. It made me not re examine. It made me not second guess myself. I just had to finish that journey that those characters were on and then re examine everything in the in the first edit and then do it again in the second edit. So I, I carved out, so I had seven months to write 60,000 words and then eventually they got up to 70 or something like that.

27:12 But. That's the size of a book I like, by the way. It's not very popular. I like a 70 to 75,000 words. That's a. Sweet spot. It's hard for authors to write books that aren't too long. So many short. Writers. So I'm like give me that word count because then you can devour it. And feel good. Yes. And you can read it kind of quickly in two days. Yeah. Too many clients come to me. I've had clients come to me with books that are 200,000 words, which is I had a. Critique partner asked me to read 185,000 words. It was when I first met them like a long time ago and I did. I read all of it and gave notes on all of it. Yeah, see, 85 of those 1000 words needed to be cut. So I mean, sometimes I'll, I'll have projects like that where I'm like, I'm not even going to edit, I just need to tell you what to cut.

28:04 And I'll just, And sometimes it's surgical because the plot is so intricate that I can't just take out entire chapters. So that's a problem. But so do you, do you? Longhand or do you? Oh my gosh, no, definitely. My long hand is terrible. Now I'm it's like a doctor script. It's so bad. I so rarely do it. So when I address cards now, I'm like, what am I? You know what is this writing thing? Do you scrivener? Do you use a like a any sort of program while you're writing a? Book Oh, I I couldn't figure out Scrivener was going to again. Again, time is important for me because I have so little of it to devote to my own projects that to spend the five hours that I would have needed to figure out Scrivener, as excellent as a tool as it seems to be, I just, I couldn't do it.

28:58 No, I'm in, I work in Word. I'm old school, and that's how I prefer to edit my clients. Sometimes I'll edit in Google, you know, and sometimes I'll edit in pages. But yeah, I just prefer time. New Romans, 12 point font, you know, just the way I was taught to edit has must be double spaced. It's got to be. And then I'll do tools every night. You know? How many words have I written? 500. OK, maybe it's 1000. Fantastic. But for me, I had to go to sleep or else I wouldn't be able to function and edit the next day. But there are times when you can just get completely caught up and you're so excited by what the characters are going through or what you're trying to say or whatever, that, yeah, you can get really caught up in it and it could.

29:48 Do you have a? Quirk like that you do while you're writing for an example. Cuz you're like, I'm like when I'm really in a scene, everyone in the house knows it because I guess I type loud and I start to mumble like like, you know, I'm like really in the I'm like, oh. That's funny. I, you know what I have a problem is our action beats. So action beats are the end of a dialogue. You know, two people are conversing and the action beat is how are they looking at each other? How are they responding to what the other one said? You know, do they put their hand or in their chin? Do they scratch their? And I'm like, Oh my God.

30:29 So I have physically gone up to the mirror to see what does that even look like? Like, I'll make faces up myself because I can't figure out how I can capture that on TV. And so, yeah, we had that conversation today with, I had it with Emily, who I'm staying with for the week, and she's in my writers group. And she was saying, there's this great scene, a New Girl when Jess and Nick get together and start kissing for the first time. And it's such a sexy, combustible scene. But how do you describe that on the page? Because I actually have this assignment to book doctor at this guy's love scenes. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, where am I gonna go to for inspiration?

31:22 Because I'm kind of a doors closed after a certain amount of action happens. I don't want all the details, but he wants all the details. So that'll be interesting for me. I was OK. There is an author, and I can't remember who it is, who does spicy books and she uses dolls. She uses Barbies. To to manipulate and get on top. To figure out position. The mechanics. But we all know I watch Asian television. You want to see something spicy? OK, you got to go to Boy Love Thai shows. Boy love Thai shows. Because most of them don't show obviously everything. They're very much women gaze romance but with men kind of thing.

32:11 OK. That would be, and it might be something outside the box that you've seen, so it might help inspire, but a lot of it is the I'm not going to lie, they, you know, allude to plenty. I'm not going to right, right, right. It's definitely not rated G, but there are sometimes where their faces just don't touch and you have all of that. I love that. I love that it's so hard to capture and that's why some of these books that are, you know, they hit the ground running with the characters like immediately hooking up. And I'm just like, no, I want that slow burn. I want those looks between between the characters because that's where the the drama and the importance comes.

32:57 From you might have to wait 8 to 16 episodes in a cave drama for them to kiss. Right. I mean, there's plenty of spicy or older ones, but nowadays they're kind of very like innocent in a way. And you go back to an American show and I'm like, no. Yeah, I mean, the the scene that everybody pulls up on their Instagram reels or what, or TikTok is Mr. Darcy coming out of the mess? Even right and I have different Darcy's though. Well, no, I love both Darcy's. I love both Darcy's, but you know that that Matthew Mcfaddian coming out of the the the myths of the. Whatever, I'm all fidgety. Yeah.

33:39 I mean, it's just a passion and his like, I can't wait a second longer. I have to tell this girl my true feelings. And but without that build up over the course of an hour and a half in the, you know, in the movie version and the six hours and the BBC version, it's, it just wouldn't work. Matthew when he walked, it's the cadence of his yes. Oh, the long coat is everything. No, the long coat for me. I'm starting to sweat. Like put a man in a long coat and I'm telling you he's too too 20% more attractive than. Throw that accent, but I'm just I'm just saying like even I we've obviously both also read the books, right? So even in the book there is that thing. But when you see the personification of that, and I think also like the other moments I always think of him, is when he stretches his hand after he helps her in the right. Yes.

34:40 No, I can't. I know, I know. Really. Sweating now. God, it's a fun conversation to think about. How do you how do you capture those moments on the page? And that's what, as artists, we're trying to do so do. You build while you write story. For me, when I write fiction, I tend to start. My stories always start with an emotional moment, but I have to work on plot the most. I'm honestly the weakest in plot, so I will tend to try to write the plot and with no emotion because I know how easy it will be for me to add that much later.

35:21 Do you have a process that you do while you're writing your romance? I mean, honestly, I'm all plot. I immediately start with a plot. Every single one of my books starts the same way, a trip back in time. And then they have a problem to solve and then they have to get back to the modern time. So it's got a very easy setup from the yeah, if they have to hit these certain Marks and then they have famous people to meet or, you know, scenes that they need to witness to kind of figure out what had gone on in history. So my first one is the Order of the Garter. And, and she witnessed kind of the origins of that order of knighthood back in 1344.

36:11 And then the second one was I needed her to meet Leonardo da Vinci. And so I traced back, you know, how could she have found him? Well, he was in France for the last three years of his life. So that gave me a time period to work with. And what if there was a lost painting? Because I think only eight of his paintings survived or something like that. And yet he was extremely prolific, you know, with his manuscript. So I thought what what if they discovered that there was a painting lost to time that they had gotten a record of? And then third one was, is Shakespeare a woman, which I loved the setup of.

36:56 So all of them have kind of these action pieces that need to happen and and meanings and personalities. And I kind of just envision I almost I will go to IMDb and look for faces. I will find actors who look like, I think my characters might look like. And now AI can do that. But yeah, it's just not not a fan so many. Issues there are. So many issues and they just, you know, so it's not great, but I like looking for real faces and then I'll kind of pin them up in front of me to just keep looking at their faces and trying to discern, you know, how would they react to certain things? What are What's the personality behind this face? I love that I think I didn't find photos of like my YA which is still something I want see my hardest problem is oh this is good wait I know.

37:51 OK so we all know I wrote Aya dear to a drunk girl. I got an agent with that book. We went on sub. I had to do 7R and Rs before I got my age 7. Oh my God I had one agent flat out tell me. I love it. I love your voice, I love your writing. I like what you have next. I don't know how to sell anything you do. Yeah, that was just like, so I write magical realism. That's my fiction is magical realism. So and young adult fiction. So I I ended up going with this one person. We were out on sub. I didn't understand who she's sub to. I would often recommend, I think this person's a better fit, but then I would be like a step too late because they would have found something too similar or similar ish.

38:36 And then when we parted ways, because we parted ways like at the at the end of COVID or the year after COVID and I got my work back and I read it and it wasn't the story I ever wanted to sell. So my character had become so we'll just say edgy, right? I was like, that is not how it started. But they made me take an emotional book and change it to a plot book. OK. And so over the past two years, I've rewritten it to be a plot book. I mean, an emotional book, but I was like, but something's missing. I don't write the way I wrote 10 years ago. So polishing something in a way that I wouldn't write. And I don't want to rewrite it.

39:20 But there's still something there in her right that really, that's a great. Story. Yeah, it was a it's a really great story. So maybe that'll come across, but that's one of my things. I'm like, I want to fix it. When do you leave a book and let it go? And when is traditional publishing just not the option? You need any cuz there are so many others. Yes, and it's there are very successful indie published books out there, especially for the YA market, the romantic market, all of that sort of thing. And the numbers, the odds are not in any writers favor, right to get a traditional book publishing deal.

40:04 It's just I liken it, and I'm sure you're tired of this analogy. That I give to everyone, but it's like, it's like a stadium full of people auditioning for American Idol and you get down to your top 10. And so that's your competition that you're up against. So you're right. There's endless polishing. There's, you know, rewrite and resubmit to a ton of people. I polished. I rewrote the beginning of my first novel in the trilogy for my agent three different times. The 1st time for her, the second time based on feedback from editors, and the third time again based on feedback to more editors. And it didn't sell, but I love how it turned out and it was a learning process for me.

40:57 So I think what's important to see is if you look back on those earlier drafts, even though maybe it had changed too much in the plot direction and gotten away from the emotions and your character had changed too much, that you're writing probably improved during that time. You learned a lot of new skills. So maybe it's just putting those two things together of the writing with capturing what you were trying to do in the 1st first place. I guess I'll just have to send it to you. I'll just finish this version and I'll just send it to. You I would love. That I am in my own way because I'm like, I wouldn't describe it like this, but I don't want to rewrite the whole thing. Or it's called Dear Dead Drunk Girl and the actual letters in the book sometimes slow the plot, but they're darlings I'm having such difficulty killing. Right.

41:49 Yeah, that's hard. And I, you know, even though I'm a nice person, I do kill darlings. I do kill a lot of darlings and some characters and things like that. And it's, again, it's down to pragmatism. I want the book to be the best that it can be. And if people get hung up on this scene, I'm always cognizant of the fact that our readers are very distracted that they are going to want any excuse to pick up their phone and see whether anybody's texted. If there's a new fun Instagram Reel or TikTok or whatever, or, you know, the president's done something crazy and you know, all this stuff. And they could be like, oh, well, this scene isn't kind of compelling to me, So I'm going to put it down. So that's, I want to boost the averages for their statistics out from Kindle about when people stop reading. Yeah.

42:47 So you can look them up, but they're very interesting. So I would say that most books do not get finished, which is a very depressing statistic for people who labor over every word and just, you know, love. Them so much ending. Right, right. You want them to get to that happy ending or whatever ending it is to have that, you know, moment of, of drama or completion romance, whatever it is and just get all the feelings. And so if if your reader's abandoning you because you have something in there that's like they suddenly are bored or they lose track or they're not invested in it, then that's why we have to be pragmatic and, and cut those elements so.

43:37 Yeah, I'm gonna have to cut. Do you see my face? And you're just listening. You can't see my face. I'm just, like, rolling my eyes. I was like, you know, This is why I work with her, because she says it so nicely. Or how do you take criticism as a writer, you and an editor? Like, when you get feedback on your work. How? Do you? Well, it's interesting as an editor too, because when I send out my editorial letter, it's almost like it is a creative process. So I'm like, are they gonna like me? Are they gonna, you know, And especially because they're paying money for it, like, are they gonna be happy with what they did? And they're, you know, so, you know, 99% of the time they're happy and satisfied and, and, you know, ecstatic because they have a solution. They have a way, a path forward.

44:25 For me, it's the same thing. Sometimes I don't agree with all of my edits and sometimes, you know, my editor can get a little carried away sometimes with some of the points that she's trying to make, but she fills in for so, but she also suggests some amazing things. So I just, it's difficult as a writer to process the feedback that you're getting because if you're if you're getting it from an independent editor, you don't have to do everything that that editor says, right? Because it's your book, you're paying the money, you're printing it yourself. But when you have a contract with Big 5 publisher or regional publisher, it's the editors decision as to whether or not you've fulfilled the the complete and satisfactory element of your contract.

45:23 And if you haven't, they can cancel your contract and you have to refund the advance money. So that's kind of a big stick that editors are holding. And I haven't had to use that very often when I was in that role. But I and authors can, again, pragmatism. Authors can say, oh, this was divinely inspired and whatever else. And I'm just like, well, that's great, but it's not working. Like, listen to me. I work on a lot of books. I edit, you know, thousands and thousands of words a year, hundreds of I'm like, oh, I. Don't you do you're. Busy. I don't. I don't count. Do you think people can earn a living just as a book author? Like realistically?

46:09 Like I honestly I don't know that I know a single author who only has one job. Very, very few. And I always say never quit your day job. So very few. I definitely encourage a balance. And I want, yeah, I want all people to embrace their creative spirit. And, you know, and we all have to pay the bills. So luckily for me, I'm doing what I love with my job, but isn't necessarily expressing, you know, creativity in that different part of my brain that I think sometimes is like is coming from a magical place, you know, no, I it's not happening, but it's happening from, you know, multiple areas of my brain. So it's it's very satisfying in that in that respect. But no, I don't know really any full time authors, if they're doing it, they're also doing it because they're they've got speaking engagements.

47:20 Yeah. So the books help sell the speaking engagements and vice versa. So you sell books at the back of the room, you're speaking to 200 people, you're making 20 bucks a book or whatever. And that is really a good driver for income. Or two bucks a book. Well, two books, a book of the publisher is printing it, but if you're printing it yourself, then hopefully you're getting a good return I. Think so. I think like from my experience is if it's like a $14.00 book, half the print, the they get half for printing or they get half for distributing it and then they get the next half for printing or $4.00 for printing, then whatever's leftover is what you get.

48:09 Yeah, I try to for my, I guess for my indie books, I kind of price them for my clients to get paid around almost $5 a book. So you just have to look at the competition and what other people are selling their books for because the cost of paper is going way up again. Again, in a pragmatic sense, that's why we don't want the 185,000 word manuscript because it's a, it's this big, it's the, you know, the size of a Bible or a textbook and it's intimidating. And if you're a new author and somebody's going to have to invest $40 on a, you know, on a Yellow Pages type length, then people might not be on board. But if it's $70,000, seventy thousand dollars, 70,000 words and 18 bucks for a book and you know, it's got some good blurbs or whatever, it's got a really good premise or they heard about it somewhere, somebody recommended it, that's a lot easier sell.

49:15 So I definitely encourage people to not go overboard, especially for their first book. You'll notice that successful authors, all of their books were definitely under 100,000 words. And then as they got more and more successful, you know, they just, they go crazy. I have a question, do you have any experience in discerning if introverts or extroverts are better writers? Oh boy. Well, extroverts are usually good storytellers, right? So theoretically, I find the extroverts like tend to narrate their entire lives and that may. I'm, I consider myself an introvert. So like I find that I, I'm an expressive introvert because like after you and I talked today, I won't probably say more than 20 more.

50:07 Yeah, I'm already done. And I love being around creative community and it jazzes me and it gets me excited. But that's because I'm alone a lot. Right, yeah, me too. You know, I work at home on books all day and and I'm alone a lot, but I'm an I consider myself an ambivert. So like, I can switch on to being an extrovert when I need to be, and then I can switch off, but I definitely need downtime afterwards to like, do my routine and be boring. But if I were going from night out, night out, night out, five nights a week, I would be dead. But that's a good question about who's the better writer. Obvious. I would say, obviously I work with a ton more introverts than I do extroverts.

50:52 So the extroverts the probably that I'm working with are working more on nonfiction. I don't think they have an internal creative life like we might. I don't know. That's a theory. I love my extroverted friends. I don't mean to we're. Not putting anyone down. I was just like thinking about that because sometimes I wonder if they're completely extroverted, if all the energy is going out, how do you direct it down? That's exactly right. I think that's exactly right. I don't think that. Yeah. Because. Because they're looking for external validation, perhaps. And I'm trying to go into a world that I've invented and meet up with characters. You know, there's that whole book boyfriend thing going on right now.

51:39 And I'm like, I have made the best book boyfriends. Like, I love my book boyfriends. They're far better than any you know, you know, I'm sure to the exception of your husband, but. Whatever, whatever, whatever this is. Fiction relieving fiction. Boyfriends are fantastic. Just like you know, Mr. Farsi I. Found this thing on Book Talk. I really try to stay out of any intense conversations. I'm just more of a lurker. Yeah, but I've found this whole world of narrators, like book talk narrators. There's like all these women are they're feral, they're feral over it. And and once it gets on your page, I'm just like, what what is this?

52:26 What like that takes the imagination just like some other next level and I am feral in. What way though I'm? I'm I'll just privately send you a link. OK. It's it's in a way that like, I was like you're checking your fantasy into the real world. And I, I mean, I guess more power to you, but. OK, Yeah, yeah. That's. I don't know that I could go. I mean, it's enough that I've written this trilogy. But again, it's a very exposing thing. I think the people on TikTok are exposing themselves in a creative way that writers are doing, but just in very short snippets. And you know what drives me crazy on TikTok? I'm just gonna say it. Those people that do, here's me getting for work, ready for work and it's like 30 different shots of them. I'm like, this must have taken you 3 hours to film from every single different angle.

53:22 You're not getting ready for work. You're not going anywhere. Like what is this day? This was done a Saturday or a Sunday. I don't know how many cameras you have set up around here. It could be 1 and then you're going from blah to blah and it drives me insane. It's, it's so artificial. It's like. Jumping tents. I think actually I'm interviewing a couple content creators and that's part of what I want to talk to them about is like how, how do you see the world like that? And then show it like that? Because it's not how I see story. Yeah, yeah. And I appreciate it aesthetically, but as a human, I'm like, what are you doing to yourself? Like this is seems like a horrible existence that you're putting yourself through. Well, it's definitely predicated and validated. Like if you don't get the clicks and likes right, there's a content create.

54:12 I can't think of his name. He's younger. He's like for me, he's 20 something, maybe early 30s. Like for me, quite young. And he's gone through all of these iterations of his personality, trying to find who he is and discovering who you are and knowing who you are, right? That's like a lot of what I was doing as a healer. And watching them navigate the waves and criticism and attention of social media on top of it, Yeah, is like something I could never handle. Like when I did my essay about getting harassed on set and going viral when there was only TikTok and waking up to 5000 messages literally of from people I didn't know telling me there was mistakes in my essay. God.

54:58 Because they I was waiting for my editorial letter. The contract was they bought it at it and then published, but they published without the edit so I'm like. And they didn't change the name, so the first names were the first. Names. No, I remember that. That was a big that really blew up. It did, but if that happened nowadays, I wouldn't been able to handle it. That's like that's too. That's. It's a lot. It's a lot. They're really exposing themselves to a lot. And one of the heartbreaking things I see on TikTok is, and some people I know are doing this are like, you know, nodding enthusiastically and holding up a book if they liked it or like, shaking their head if they didn't like it.

55:42 And it's like, oh, if I were the author who worked on their book and they were just shaking their head. And I think that's efficient and whatever. If you're going to show 10 books that have just come out, but I'd rather get a star rating, I'd rather have a review. I'd rather have like something to grasp onto other than a person shaking their head like why the book didn't work for them. That just hurts where you're not going to talk about the big bad wolf, which is what Amazon is for me. They're the big bad wolf. Yeah, because they're a necessary evil. We've made them that in our world. I last week they took my book down saying that I violated things and then I wasn't who I said I was, which they had done like 3 years ago before about something else.

56:26 That's insane. So because I am meticulous in my bookkeeping, I was like actually you've done this to me before and here's your letter and this is how you resolved it and this is the date you resolved it. Please resolve it again. And within a day they did. But like, you have to go through that. Oh my God, all my work. And they take down all my work. So my work that appears in other publications comes down holy. Moses, that's awful. No, I know the indie editor author is up against a lot of really ridiculousness. It's bots. They're bots. And bots and, and you're up against third party sellers who swoop in and suddenly they've got your book and they're selling it for $30.00, but it only retail cost $16.00. But they're, they can't get the prime version of your book for some reason.

57:17 So it's very confusing to the author. And all the author wants to do is create and they don't want to be, you know, they don't want to be stuck arguing with whatever over these dumb things. And it's so, it's so upsetting and. So I would like to tell people don't take nose. The first answer. It took me two weeks of nose and Amazon where they're like, no, we did the right thing. I'm like, no, you didn't. Yeah, no, you didn't. No, you didn't. And just like, it's just like an author, you get told no often, but just ignore it, keep going. Just keep. I mean, it's like you have to think of yourself in sales, right? You're just, you have to connect with the right person at the right time who has the money and is ready to go. And it might take 100 times, it might take 150. You just don't know how many times you're going to have to hear no, but people have to get used to hearing no for sure. Yeah, that and you know, the arbiters of taste, right? They might not be your people, which is what I think indie is. I don't do sub stack.

58:24 I was always very tempted to, but like, there are avenues to find your readers and your people, and there's more than one way. When I start thinking of all the ways, it just overwhelms me and I just shut down. But some people really thrive in that. And you can think about even starting a newsletter. You can start building with this small thing and then begin to monetize. I think there's a bajillion ways to do that. So I wanna know, So what are you personally working on right now? And and when is it coming out and how can people find you in? Well, thank you. Let me see what my working title is right now.

59:05 So it's called From Tortured Artist to Rapturous Writer, Strategies for Surviving the Wild Emotional right Ride of writing and Publishing. And it's hopefully coming out in September. And I'm indie publishing it. And I've hired my own editor, a copy editor, book designer, and it's going to be fabulous. And like you were saying, I'm going to, you know, potentially be doing a sub stack. I've literally got my form pulled up on this Chrome right now. Like do I even? Psychic I'm. Yeah. Do I even have time to do a sub stack?

59:47 Like there's a lot of great ones out there on the book publishing process, but I'm not sure from this particular angle. But I just feel like I over the my last 30 years of, of being in this business and I have just seen a lot of reactions held a lot of hands. So there are, you know, emotions like desire to start, perfectionism, joy, inadequacy, obsession, malaise, inspiration, feeling lucky because I feel like. Writing is a lucky career because you're not up on stage doing it.

1:00:27 You, you know, you can't. You can't flub theoretically in front of millions of people if you're an actor or something like that. Nervous star, stubborn, disappointed, shy, overconfident. I have a few goods. Yeah, there's. Overcoming. I can't wait to read. Those yeah, angry, angry over a bad reviews. So there's there's so many emotions that get caught up in writing and publishing and I want to take people so that they're not stalled. They don't they keep pressing forward with their books. They keep pressing forward with their dreams. Even if 100 people read their book and get something out of it, it's still worth it.

1:01:10 I think it's still such a fun creative process. It's life giving that I've had. I have writers in their 90s who are still writing novels and they're like, well, I can't, you know, I'm not mobile. I can't go very far, but I can still write. And people who have had their parents are spouses who pass away, who've been ill for a long time. And they'll write me the very next day and said, thank God, I've got this project to work on because it's giving me life. It's giving me a reason to keep going and give me something to focus on that's not terribly sad. So I really appreciate, you know, what writers are going through.

1:01:54 And if I can help them in some way, that's that's what I'm doing with this book. I know you can. I, I, I will devour your book. I'll probably just keep it right on my desk right next to me so when I'm whatever manic mood that might you could just like you can thumb to it. Yeah, I'll talk. I'll try to talk you down or or talk you up and say. Come away. I definitely go up and down. I think that is part of it. So do you people? Do you want people to find you at betsythorpe.com or Hope Carol? Betsythorpe.com and Hope Carol are interlinked. So Hope Carol is my pen name for the romance trilogy and Betsy Thorpe is is more of my kind of business persona.

1:02:36 Business persona, it's me. It's not a persona, it's me. And yeah, so. Air quote. Yeah. So Betsy Thorpe is where I do all my business and they're they're links to both and I'm on Instagram and all that good stuff. Yeah, OK. My and my favorite moment, right. So if you came within morning label, Miss Betsy, what would it be? My gosh. Yeah, sometimes. OK, so and you might have noticed if if people are watching on video, I will look up when I'm talking sometimes and to grasp the right word and sometimes people will follow my vision and look, see what is she looking at?

1:03:26 So I'm not looking away. There's not like a plane in the sky that's falling. I am just searching for the right words. So maybe that's maybe that's one I don't, I don't know. Is that a good one? Yeah. Why? There's no, there's no wrong answer. I like that. I I'm like trying to think if I've ever really noticed about that. I always find you quite intentional in everything you do. And I like that about you. And that doesn't mean that you're not fun because you're fun and you're funny, all of that. But you are intentional in choosing your words. So I can very now very much imagine you looking that way. When I usually look up, it's because I see something like something otherworldly, right? Maybe we can get them to meet.

1:04:10 Yes. And like, just write the words for us and then we just have to like get them that way. Well, The funny thing that the older you get, the more words you lose out of your brain. So it's so upsetting. And I think that I was so articulate and amazing in my 20s, and it's like on the deep, the more I want to write, the less words come to me easily. So it's upsetting, but thank God for this thesaurus. I think you must have heard my interview with my last person. He's an actress and author, and I told her my vocabulary is 100 words. I'm really good with those 100 words because sometimes when I read a draft I was like, could I use the same word more like, Oh my God, circle, circle, circle. Oh yes, and that's a common people have their ticks and their favorite and it's it's partly my job to tell them what they are so that they see when they do that. Yeah, I'm like looking away embarrassed. I was like I.

1:05:07 Don't do that. Yeah. Actually, I owe you a book really soon. I'll have to tell you about that. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited. I can't wait for you to be like yes, no, no, no, yes, no, no, no, yes. It'll have a path, it'll have a direction, and then it'll be released to the readers and they will be very happy. Anyway, with our time is up, I just want to say thank you again so much. Thank you so much, this was so much fun. I feel lucky because you're my friend, but now I've gotten to share you with everybody. And again, if you want to work with Betsy, please look her up. She is everything that you heard here and more. She really does have a way and a gift of finding the story that you being to have down fiction or non fiction, it doesn't matter, the genre, which is partly magical in and of itself, and bringing out your voice and your story.

1:06:02 And she does that for you and she does it for herself. So everyone read her books, obviously. So thank. You. Thank you, Holly. I left it.