The Writer’s Rollercoaster: Author, Editor and Writing Instructor Betsy Thorpe Talks About Finding Your Path in Writing, the Role of an Editor, and Embracing the Emotional Journey

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Betsy, thank you for coming to
the Holly Hughes Podcast.

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I am exceedingly excited to have
you.

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First of all, because you're a
friend.

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Second of all, because I know
how talented you are.

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And third of all, when we do get
together, I don't always get to

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ask you everything.
I've always wanted to ask you.

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And so I'm going to go there
today and you don't get worried

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because I know you know my
personality, but.

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I'm excited to be here, Holly.
Thank you.

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Ask away because.
I want to talk so my podcast is

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about leading and living a
creative life and what that

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means and what I I'm gonna get
emotional 'cause I know you, but

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like what I honestly admire
about you.

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Seriously, I'm getting
emotional.

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Well, you're an outstanding
human, right?

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You're a single mom, which is
like everything that you've

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accomplished in Raising 2.
Amazing grown people right now,

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like I'm in the midst of getting
ready for college.

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I and you've done this twice and
no, I can't, but you go from

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this very sound editorial
mindset.

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You are an amazing editor.
You take sentences everyone

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should know.
I've hired Betsy, so I worked

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with her.
But you take my wildly emotional

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at times work my raw material
that I've tried to fix and know

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where I get stuck and you pull
it out and shape it into what I

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meant, right.
And we're very different people.

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But you can you have that
ability.

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And then from I will call that a
pragmatic, even though it's not,

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it's creative too.
But I'm more of a pragmatic

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mind.
Then you time travel literally

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in your own creative writing and
you become Hope Carol.

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You become a whole other woman
in a whole other romance.

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Like I'm getting goosebumps
again, literally like they're

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right here.
And so you have this duality and

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creativity.
And so how do you do that?

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Like, how do you define or
explain your journey?

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Because you've also worked with
the big publishers, big

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traditional publishing.
Yeah, I think I would approach

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that, that I've always had kind
of creativity from a business

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point of view.
And so for me, it's never about,

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you know, let's do some free
writing or let's do some

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journaling.
I love all that, but I kind of

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always want to have an end goal,
both in my creative writing and

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as an editor.
So I always want to bring people

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to publication no matter where
they are.

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And so that started, you know,
in my early days as an editorial

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assistant, I just saw the
realities of the business and

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what we were looking for and
what we weren't looking for and

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what we could make work and what
we couldn't.

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And then growing to become, you
know, full editor and then an

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indie editor has been fabulous
because I get to work with

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people sometimes from start to
finish, book and beyond in a way

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that I didn't get to as an in
house editor.

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So that's really been cool for
me.

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But the duality is, yes, it's a
duality because I came at

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writing novels, as, you know, a
novice.

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And even though I'm an English
major, I'm an experienced

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editor.
We're all grasping, trying to

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find the right words, trying to
figure out how to do

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descriptions and dialogue and
romance, and, you know, just all

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the things that we need to pull
into a book and make it work.

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And so that's been very useful
for me as an editor as well to

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see, you know, what people
struggle with.

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So it kind of enhanced my
editing business, I think, even

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more.
And I have a lot more advice as

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well-being on that side of the
table.

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Yeah, I want to know, did you
always want to be a writer?

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Was that like, really?
Yes, definitely.

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I mean, I think from the time I
read The Chronicles of Narnia, I

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just wanted to recreate that
sort of experience, which is

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probably how I got into time
travel.

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But I like those mysterious
doors, you know, in closets and

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where might they lead?
And to new adventures that are

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much more exciting than the life
that I was leading, you know, in

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boring suburban Connecticut.
And so, yeah, I just have always

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thought, you know, writing is
exciting.

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At first, I thought it was going
to be a travel writer and that.

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Yeah.
And.

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And then I quickly found out in
my first job at Conde Nast that

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all those writers are freelance.
Oh my God.

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Traveler I I have the funniest
story about this so right.

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I worked in film and TV and I
remembered that I wanted to own

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my own creativity.
So I started taking writing

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classes at UCLA extensions
because I always wanted to

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write, but I didn't know the
business of writing.

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I didn't know how to start.
And I, I didn't know how to

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write anymore because I'd spent
years on sets, right, doing

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budgets and negotiations.
So I, one of the first classes I

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took was a travel writer.
And that teacher, he hated me.

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That he, he did not like my
personality.

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He did not like my writing and
he wasn't editorial.

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He didn't teach me to be better.
He would just try to publicly

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embarrass me.
What?

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Yeah, cuz I did a trip to Hawaii
and I didn't enjoy it.

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And I remember trying to think,
well, how do I write about going

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to Hawaii and not enjoying it at
all?

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Right, Everyone's dream
vacation.

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Yeah, that's such a good story
though, and.

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He got so rude that one of the
men in the class to this day is

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now a friend.
His name is Adam.

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Adam was like, dude, you're so
rude.

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Like, what are you doing?
And then the teacher's response

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was, are you 2 dating?
Oh, jeez.

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And then everyone in the room is
like only twenty of us.

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It was small.
Was like, EW.

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So it was like 1.
I was like, well, I guess maybe

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God's just telling me, don't
travel right.

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I don't know.
Or you just had the wrong

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teacher because that's part of
the experience of going back and

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forth.
And some editors are some indie

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editors I imagine are like that
and they'll just shut you down.

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And I've always been of the
encouraging like, what are you

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doing?
Well, what do you need help

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with?
How can I help you?

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But those sort of teachers
should not be teaching I.

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Just it was an experience.
For that's sad.

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That's sad.
I'm sorry that happened.

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To you.
But that's part of your gift

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though.
You do find the magic the good

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stuff.
Yeah.

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And don't you think that's a
talent?

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Like, is that innate in you
because you're kind?

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Or is it because you also
understand the business and

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you're like, well, if we expand
on this, then we can sell it and

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publish it?
Which part of your brain is

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engaging that?
Probably, yeah, multiple sides,

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because I do see the kind of
hurt child within every author

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that's trying to express
themselves and trying to solve a

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problem.
It be a fictional or nonfiction.

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So they're trying to either help
readers or entertain readers or,

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you know, teach readers
something.

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So.
But we're all kind of slightly

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damaged in a way, and we're all
so vulnerable that I know how

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hard it is to bring your work to
somebody and say, please, you

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know, please help me with it.
And a lot of people approach me

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with almost an embarrassment,
like I'm not an experienced

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author.
I don't know what I'm doing.

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And I'm just like, consider me
like a doctor.

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Like, I see all these problems
all the time.

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So don't think, you know, I, I
don't have my judgy lens on you

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per SE.
I just need to know how to how

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to make this book feel better.
That's really how you feel

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working with you?
Because I don't want it.

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I want people to understand that
when it comes to having and

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finding an editor that works,
first of all, there are really

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good ones and they're there are
ones that are less good, that

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might be really particular about
grammar in a weird way, as

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opposed to fleshing out story or
plot.

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Like you can come to editorial
on many parts of your journey,

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right?
Like where you are.

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I think you said this to me,
which I always take as a

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compliment.
You were like, you know what

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your shortcoming is, right?
Like I do, I'm like, I know I

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have a blind spot here.
I don't know how to fix it

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because I think it's on the page
right?

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But everyone is telling me no it
is not on the page.

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Right, right you.
Need to fix that, but there is a

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supportive editor while still
holding you to task right?

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Because writing is rewriting.
Absolutely.

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And yeah, I mean, I think you
can absolutely do both.

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Because if you're not offering
solutions along with the empathy

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about what a hard journey this
is and you know, all of that

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sort of stuff, then what are you
bringing to the table?

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So you have to bring solutions.
And I, I once got a little

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present after a book came out
from these authors who are at

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the Children's Hospital of
Philadelphia.

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And it was this big book on
Children's Health.

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And I can't remember it's, I'm,
I'm not at home, so I don't have

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it in front of me.
But she sent me a little a

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little frame that was had
puzzles, puzzle pieces kind of

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on the outside of the frame.
And it said, Betsy, thanks for

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making all the puzzle pieces fit
together.

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And that's just stuck with me.
I was like, yeah, it kind of

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does feel that way.
Like you've got a 500 piece,

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1000 piece or in the case of
long manuscripts, 80,100

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thousand piece puzzle that you
need to figure out how my is

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this put together the right way
and what are some pieces that

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are missing?
Often times, you know, how can

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we get those pieces in here and
how can we arrange them in a way

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that's entertaining and people
will keep reading.

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So I do really think about this
process as as kind of always

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different puzzles that need to
be solved.

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Yeah, and you help people with
book proposals too, because you

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and I also did some of that for
nonfiction.

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So if anyone out there listening
does nonfiction, that is a whole

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other kind of writing.
Yes, and it's very there has to

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be.
I I came in and here's a story

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that people may not realize
happens, but a lot of in house

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editors no longer have the time
to solve problems that are

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happening in books.
So you sell a nonfiction book

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based on a proposal, which is an
overview, an outline and two

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sample chapters, and then you
get a contract based on that.

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And then the book might come in
and no, it's not what I hoped it

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would be.
So I've had a couple in house

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editors reach out to me and say
I don't have time in my schedule

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to fix this and I might have to
cancel this contract if this

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author can't fix this book.
So let me connect you with his

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agent and let me you know he'll
have to hire you to fix his

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book.
And so that happens sometimes in

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Big 5 publishing that the book
is not, you know, ready for

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prime time and your editor can't
fix it because they just don't

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have the bandwidth.
Do you think that had to do with

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expectation or did they write a
book?

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Like, you know, sometimes a
proposal isn't the book that you

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write because you have different
thoughts.

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So is it a reasonable
expectation?

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Was the writing that up to
snuff?

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Was it like or both?
In this particular case, so

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something I like to emphasize in
nonfiction is even though it's,

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you know, prescriptive, you have
to continually tell stories.

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So he didn't have enough
illustrative stories throughout

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to keep the reader engaged.
It was all just advice and we

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couldn't see how that advice was
playing out with his clients.

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So that really wasn't working
for his editor.

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And you know, it was just, it's
just boring without stories.

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So we, we had to put some in.
I'm like.

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OK.
I thought as mean as you get.

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Well, that was kind of.
Boring.

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It was kind of boring.
Yeah.

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So.
So that was an interesting

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project to take on, kind of.
It had been well thought out.

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He had all the credentials in
the world.

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He worked with people all the
time, just like you as an

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expert.
You know, he had all of that

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going for him.
But what he didn't realize was

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00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:47,240
that he wasn't filling it up
with illustrative stories.

227
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,960
That's really fascinating.
I probably usually have too many

228
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,560
stories.
Well, it's better to have too

229
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,400
many stories than too few,
because then I could say, well,

230
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,880
this is not your strongest 1, so
let's pull this one.

231
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,000
So that's totally fine.
I'd rather see that than have

232
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,400
none and just be Do this, do
that, do this, do that.

233
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,520
Yeah, I think I know my messiest
chapter I ever sent you,

234
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,200
nonfiction wise.
You're like, yeah, that was a

235
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,360
little long.
And I was like, my trauma is all

236
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,120
on the page.
My trauma is all on the page.

237
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:19,520
You're like, OK, maybe if you
reorganize it that way.

238
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:24,760
See again, that is really the
magic of a good of a really good

239
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,800
editor.
Like I know I can put something

240
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,320
through Grammarly 1000 times or
or try to fix my grammar, but I

241
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,400
am a typo queen.
Like, if you know me, you're

242
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,880
gonna have a typo.
I can look at it a bajillion

243
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,960
ways.
And everybody does, yeah.

244
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,400
Do you have a relationship?
Because I've actually just

245
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,320
discovered that I'm dyslexic at
this age.

246
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,360
I have discovered I'm dyslexic.
Because my gosh.

247
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,520
I was right.
No, this is really funny.

248
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,000
I was at a wedding with my
daughter and I was trying to

249
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,360
learn Korean right?
Because we all know I'm obsessed

250
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,800
and I was running into some
issues besides having difficulty

251
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,040
getting the words from my brain
out of my mouth, learning that

252
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,520
I'm a throat talker and Korean
is very much in the front of

253
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,760
your mouth.
So that was different for me.

254
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,640
But I was having a hard time
seeing letters like they just

255
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,320
started blending and I the
Korean.

256
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,840
Letters.
I was realizing that I was

257
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,680
seeing things in shapes and then
my daughter and I are sitting

258
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,560
out to dinner before like the
day before the wedding and and I

259
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,080
was explaining some of my
issues.

260
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,000
She's like looking at me like
I'm an idiot because a teenager

261
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,760
does.
And she was like, do you know

262
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,360
you're dyslexic?
I was like, what are you talking

263
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:40,800
about?
People who are dyslexic can't

264
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,840
read.
I read constantly and all the

265
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,920
time, right?
And she's like, OK, no.

266
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,640
And she went through cuz she
took her psychology class,

267
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,680
right?
And so she knew all the tests.

268
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,880
And I did the tests in like 4
out of five things.

269
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,440
I was like, Oh my gosh, pegged
at, I was pegged at wow.

270
00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,280
I was like, this is kind of why
I see the world.

271
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:05,120
I do color a lot.
I have to do an association to

272
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,440
get it right.
She's like, did you ever write

273
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,000
letters backwards?
I was like, yeah, I didn't see

274
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,760
it when I wrote it, but I saw it
when I read it, if that makes

275
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,760
any sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

276
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,240
Definitely like would PS&B's I'd
mess up?

277
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,280
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, And like things like that.

278
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,400
And I was like, Oh my God, I I
am.

279
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,040
And then my Korean teacher's
like, no, Holly Korean's just.

280
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,720
Hard.
Well, of course.

281
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,760
Yeah, that's.
But yeah, but I think that

282
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,920
sometimes it is when I think
something is in an order.

283
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,480
Again, editing can come in and
be like outside perspective.

284
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,400
Well, and that's important
because I'm, I have editors as

285
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,920
well for my own books, right?
So I can't see it in my own

286
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,840
writing.
I just, you know, I'm throwing a

287
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,640
bunch of things down on the page
and hoping that it makes sense.

288
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:03,440
And especially I'm, I'm writing
this book on, on the emotional

289
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:09,520
journey of, of being a writer.
And I'm just jumping stories

290
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,640
left, right and center into all
of the different chapters.

291
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,359
I don't know if they make sense
where they are.

292
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:18,920
I don't know if I've already
said them before.

293
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,440
I'm repeating myself because I'm
doing this at night and on

294
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,240
weekends.
So I'm not fully doing this full

295
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:32,440
time, so I look at editors as
kind of like almost lifeguards

296
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,480
or something.
That's a nice way to put it.

297
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,920
That's how we're pulling you out
of the surf because I'm just so

298
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:45,520
grateful for the people who are
helping me catch all of these

299
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:50,280
mistakes that I'm just, you
know, putting down Willy nilly

300
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,800
and and giving me some focus and
structure about things that I

301
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,640
need to work on myself.
So, and this was true for the

302
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:05,240
time travel trilogy as well,
that I just needed that focus of

303
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,720
another person who just sits
down and their only job is to

304
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,720
focus on your work.
And so beta readers are great,

305
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,720
friends are great, all of that.
But when you assign somebody to

306
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,240
work on your book, you really
want that and need that focus of

307
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,840
kind of, you know, a certain
number of hours to get the work

308
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:31,880
done because otherwise wise it
might be half assed and and your

309
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,920
producer told me, I could swear.
So we can, we can because this

310
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,720
is for adults only.
Well, anyone can hear it, but

311
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,520
you know, we don't have to
censor ourselves.

312
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,320
We're grown beings.
So I want, so there's like so

313
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,000
many things we can go to in
that.

314
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,600
First of all, I want to hear
about your next book, but I want

315
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:52,320
to talk about, like, what it was
to choose a life of being a

316
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,840
creative person and choosing the
traditional route at first,

317
00:18:58,520 --> 00:18:59,400
right?
Like what?

318
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,080
Like, was it a conscious choice?
Was it like you got lucky out of

319
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,680
school?
I know you got published very

320
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,520
young, right?
You were like in a big magazine

321
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,480
at 21 of like, I couldn't even
imagine how amazing that felt.

322
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,120
Yeah, it was.
It was a series of fortunate

323
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:16,800
events in my case.
So.

324
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,600
So yeah, I got published in the
New York Times in an op-ed

325
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,680
article when I came back from my
junior year abroad, which was a

326
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:35,080
highly exciting time, creative
creatively for me and friends

327
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,320
wise and travel wise.
And there were just, there's

328
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,520
just so much going on.
And when I came back, there was

329
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,040
kind of this almost
disappointment that I was going

330
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:48,200
back to the real world.
And, you know, that adventure

331
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:49,960
was over.
And everybody was telling me the

332
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,280
best year of your life is over
because.

333
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,880
Yeah.
Who are these people?

334
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,160
Debbie Downers, but it's 20.
One your life is.

335
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,320
Yeah, your life is over.
It's all downhill from here,

336
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,000
sweetie pie.
So yeah, it's so I I happened to

337
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,880
meet.
I was lucky enough that a friend

338
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:21,200
of my dad's colleague was an
editor at The New York Times.

339
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,520
And he said, you know, I just
had an informational interview

340
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,760
with him about, Gee, you're
going to be graduating soon,

341
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,280
what should you do?
And I was like, well, I want to

342
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:31,720
be a writer.
And he's like, well, what have

343
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:38,840
you written?
0 Have you contributed to the

344
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,280
school newspaper?
No.

345
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,200
Did you write for the literary
magazine?

346
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,440
No.
Have you written anything?

347
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,760
Well, nothing really, except
Diaries and letters to my

348
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,920
parents and friends because back
then we wrote letters.

349
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,560
So he was like, well, tell you
what, we're doing this series

350
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:03,000
called Voices of a New
Generation, and why don't you

351
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,400
just try your hand at doing
something, you know, just

352
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,800
writing 305 hundred words on
whatever you want to write

353
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,560
about.
Send it to me.

354
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,000
And he was probably thinking,
there's no way, you know,

355
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,160
there's no way that I'm going to
publish it.

356
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,040
And so I went home and I had an
assignment, which is so

357
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,680
important.
I feel like people need

358
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,040
assignments sometime.
And, and I went home and I wrote

359
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,880
it.
And they actually, I remember

360
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,920
getting that call and and they
were like, yeah, we're going to

361
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,760
publish it.
And it was just incredible.

362
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,640
So that led to me getting my
first job at Conde Nast

363
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,240
magazines.
And I was interning there.

364
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,600
Not interning, I guess it was
out of college, but it was kind

365
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:48,840
of.
So they.

366
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,240
Were in New York, though.
Physically, I was.

367
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,520
Physically, I grew up outside of
New York City so I could commute

368
00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,760
into Manhattan, which is a very
lucky thing as I'm finding now

369
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,600
with my new graduate who wants
possibly to be in book

370
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,600
publishing.
But a lot of people don't end up

371
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,680
getting into book publishing
because it's too expensive to

372
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,680
move.
The pay is not good.

373
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,400
You know, you have to
immediately find 4 roommates to,

374
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,240
you know, to team up with on
like greater Staten Island or

375
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,320
something like that in order to
have the privilege to work in

376
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,880
the creative field.
So I was lucky I had that

377
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,600
advantage and did have roommates
out of college who I could room

378
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,040
and board with.
But it was always my, my

379
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,440
father's a banker.
He's very pragmatic.

380
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,280
So therefore, you know, always
looking for a corporate job,

381
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,320
never, you know, benefits, all
that sort of stuff.

382
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,960
So I was always kind of of that
mind that at first it has to be

383
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,840
the corporate world.
And so it's.

384
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:03,880
So fascinating to me because,
wait, my mom's an artist and my

385
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,080
dad's an engineer, a chemical
engineer.

386
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,480
I knew I wanted to write very
young.

387
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,320
I wrote stories with my friends
in it.

388
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,880
I would write stories with the
boys they had crushes with and I

389
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,400
would make a little romance.
I love them.

390
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:20,560
I know it was so fun and and I
wrote for my local newspaper.

391
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,400
See, you were doing the things
that I was.

392
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,520
Supposed to be doing 0.
Belief that I could do anything.

393
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:33,160
Zero My self esteem, my belief
in any ability was 0 - 0.

394
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,680
It was like so nothing.
So I find that fascinating.

395
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,440
Like you know how far I've come.
But like that you were like, no,

396
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:41,760
pragmatic, I didn't have
anything.

397
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,320
So I'll just start.
I'll just start and do it.

398
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,200
Yeah.
I kind of believed.

399
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,320
I thought I was a good writer.
So I did have that belief in

400
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,160
myself.
And and shout out to Mrs. Lang

401
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,800
in 10th grade English, who told
me I was a good writer.

402
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,960
Those early, like anybody who
can tell a kid that they're a

403
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,840
good writer.
And I'm sad that.

404
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,120
Did you not have that?
No.

405
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,760
Validation I.
Don't also think, like, I don't

406
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,120
know, that I would have been
able to process it or hear it

407
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:11,360
especially, right, Like, I moved
as a junior, then my house

408
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:12,280
burned down.
Yeah.

409
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,360
So I wasn't the most stable, you
know, as my last few years in

410
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:18,560
high school.
You had a lot of trauma to deal

411
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,840
with that you weren't hearing
the good messages.

412
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:21,720
Yeah.
Probably not.

413
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they were probably there

414
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,640
like, Holly, you're really
talented, but.

415
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,600
I don't.
I don't think I ever heard that.

416
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:31,920
Right.
I don't know.

417
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,480
I mean, you've heard that I've
always.

418
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,920
Heard I'm brave.
I've heard I'm brave.

419
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,480
But really talented.
No.

420
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,840
No.
Brave.

421
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,160
Interesting.
Well, brave.

422
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,160
We'll have to examine that.
Brave definitely is part of the

423
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,840
whole writing process, right?
Because people judge you and

424
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,280
they're like, is this the best
use of your time?

425
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,040
You know, you could be doing
stuff that could be earning real

426
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,840
money.
So is this really how you should

427
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,160
be spending your time?
Let's talk about time.

428
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,880
All right, you open the door.
So OK, so you are a full time

429
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,320
editor.
I'm like you are busy.

430
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,560
If people want to work with you,
get in line, right?

431
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,040
Honestly, Paul, now get in line,
which I love for you because it

432
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,840
should be like that.
You, you're good at what you do,

433
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,920
but so then you have X amount of
hours.

434
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,120
Do you limit the, the time?
Because I know when I get in a

435
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:32,440
creative zone, I don't really
notice time.

436
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,640
I'll forget to eat, I'll realize
I'm cold.

437
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,040
I'm like, oh, I have to pee.
Like, you know all those things

438
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,840
because you're in the zone.
I also don't believe in balance.

439
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,480
I don't think you could cut
something off and then do this

440
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,360
for X amount of hours.
I think it's rhythm in regular

441
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,520
work and in creativity.
How do you find that?

442
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:59,160
Yeah, it probably is based on a
level of exhaustion in that I

443
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,360
only have so many hours in a
day.

444
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:04,240
So you're right, 9 to 5 is for
editing.

445
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,800
Then I cook dinner.
Then I watch like a little bit

446
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,520
of TV because I can't read after
reading all day.

447
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:15,440
And then I'll troop up to my bed
and it'll be 9:00 PM, something

448
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,120
like that.
And then I'll, I'll start

449
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:23,280
writing and I'll, when I was
writing my trilogy, two books of

450
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,720
which I had to write in seven
months each under the contract.

451
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,240
I know it's crazy.
So that that was a lesson in and

452
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,200
of itself, but I had to write a
certain number of words per

453
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,680
night in order to have an
output, which actually ended up

454
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,400
being fabulous because it made
me not look back.

455
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,040
It made me not re examine.
It made me not second guess

456
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,520
myself.
I just had to finish that

457
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,600
journey that those characters
were on and then re examine

458
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,760
everything in the in the first
edit and then do it again in the

459
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,120
second edit.
So I, I carved out, so I had

460
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:09,840
seven months to write 60,000
words and then eventually they

461
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,080
got up to 70 or something like
that.

462
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,320
But.
That's the size of a book I

463
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,280
like, by the way.
It's not very popular.

464
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,000
I like a 70 to 75,000 words.
That's a.

465
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,240
Sweet spot.
It's hard for authors to write

466
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,520
books that aren't too long.
So many short.

467
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,840
Writers.
So I'm like give me that word

468
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,160
count because then you can
devour it.

469
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:31,840
And feel good.
Yes.

470
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,200
And you can read it kind of
quickly in two days.

471
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,640
Yeah.
Too many clients come to me.

472
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,160
I've had clients come to me with
books that are 200,000 words,

473
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,760
which is I had a.
Critique partner asked me to

474
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,040
read 185,000 words.
It was when I first met them

475
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,800
like a long time ago and I did.
I read all of it and gave notes

476
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,200
on all of it.
Yeah, see, 85 of those 1000

477
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,680
words needed to be cut.
So I mean, sometimes I'll, I'll

478
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,040
have projects like that where
I'm like, I'm not even going to

479
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,360
edit, I just need to tell you
what to cut.

480
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:08,040
And I'll just, And sometimes
it's surgical because the plot

481
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,600
is so intricate that I can't
just take out entire chapters.

482
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,840
So that's a problem.
But so do you, do you?

483
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,720
Longhand or do you?
Oh my gosh, no, definitely.

484
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,160
My long hand is terrible.
Now I'm it's like a doctor

485
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:24,200
script.
It's so bad.

486
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,920
I so rarely do it.
So when I address cards now, I'm

487
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,360
like, what am I?
You know what is this writing

488
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,080
thing?
Do you scrivener?

489
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,160
Do you use a like a any sort of
program while you're writing a?

490
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,720
Book Oh, I I couldn't figure out
Scrivener was going to again.

491
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,240
Again, time is important for me
because I have so little of it

492
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,560
to devote to my own projects
that to spend the five hours

493
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,240
that I would have needed to
figure out Scrivener, as

494
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,160
excellent as a tool as it seems
to be, I just, I couldn't do it.

495
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,480
No, I'm in, I work in Word.
I'm old school, and that's how I

496
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,400
prefer to edit my clients.
Sometimes I'll edit in Google,

497
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,600
you know, and sometimes I'll
edit in pages.

498
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,200
But yeah, I just prefer time.
New Romans, 12 point font, you

499
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,120
know, just the way I was taught
to edit has must be double

500
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,520
spaced.
It's got to be.

501
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,200
And then I'll do tools every
night.

502
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,080
You know?
How many words have I written?

503
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,960
500.
OK, maybe it's 1000.

504
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,520
Fantastic.
But for me, I had to go to sleep

505
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,040
or else I wouldn't be able to
function and edit the next day.

506
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,200
But there are times when you can
just get completely caught up

507
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,320
and you're so excited by what
the characters are going through

508
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,480
or what you're trying to say or
whatever, that, yeah, you can

509
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,320
get really caught up in it and
it could.

510
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,960
Do you have a?
Quirk like that you do while

511
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,000
you're writing for an example.
Cuz you're like, I'm like when

512
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,240
I'm really in a scene, everyone
in the house knows it because I

513
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,520
guess I type loud and I start to
mumble like like, you know, I'm

514
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,560
like really in the I'm like, oh.
That's funny.

515
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,360
I, you know what I have a
problem is our action beats.

516
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,280
So action beats are the end of a
dialogue.

517
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,880
You know, two people are
conversing and the action beat

518
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,080
is how are they looking at each
other?

519
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,720
How are they responding to what
the other one said?

520
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,440
You know, do they put their hand
or in their chin?

521
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,600
Do they scratch their?
And I'm like, Oh my God.

522
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,440
So I have physically gone up to
the mirror to see what does that

523
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,920
even look like?
Like, I'll make faces up myself

524
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:42,520
because I can't figure out how I
can capture that on TV.

525
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,640
And so, yeah, we had that
conversation today with, I had

526
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,920
it with Emily, who I'm staying
with for the week, and she's in

527
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,120
my writers group.
And she was saying, there's this

528
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,200
great scene, a New Girl when
Jess and Nick get together and

529
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,000
start kissing for the first
time.

530
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,960
And it's such a sexy,
combustible scene.

531
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,280
But how do you describe that on
the page?

532
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,520
Because I actually have this
assignment to book doctor at

533
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:20,640
this guy's love scenes.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, where

534
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,720
am I gonna go to for
inspiration?

535
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,200
Because I'm kind of a doors
closed after a certain amount of

536
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,640
action happens.
I don't want all the details,

537
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,080
but he wants all the details.
So that'll be interesting for

538
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,440
me.
I was OK.

539
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,200
There is an author, and I can't
remember who it is, who does

540
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:43,760
spicy books and she uses dolls.
She uses Barbies.

541
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:50,240
To to manipulate and get on top.
To figure out position.

542
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,800
The mechanics.
But we all know I watch Asian

543
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,920
television.
You want to see something spicy?

544
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,880
OK, you got to go to Boy Love
Thai shows.

545
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,200
Boy love Thai shows.
Because most of them don't show

546
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,280
obviously everything.
They're very much women gaze

547
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,840
romance but with men kind of
thing.

548
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,320
OK.
That would be, and it might be

549
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,040
something outside the box that
you've seen, so it might help

550
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:23,000
inspire, but a lot of it is the
I'm not going to lie, they, you

551
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,160
know, allude to plenty.
I'm not going to right, right,

552
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,720
right.
It's definitely not rated G, but

553
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,720
there are sometimes where their
faces just don't touch and you

554
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,600
have all of that.
I love that.

555
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,560
I love that it's so hard to
capture and that's why some of

556
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,120
these books that are, you know,
they hit the ground running with

557
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,840
the characters like immediately
hooking up.

558
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,320
And I'm just like, no, I want
that slow burn.

559
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,920
I want those looks between
between the characters because

560
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,240
that's where the the drama and
the importance comes.

561
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,480
From you might have to wait 8 to
16 episodes in a cave drama for

562
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,320
them to kiss.
Right.

563
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,200
I mean, there's plenty of spicy
or older ones, but nowadays

564
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,680
they're kind of very like
innocent in a way.

565
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,800
And you go back to an American
show and I'm like, no.

566
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,760
Yeah, I mean, the the scene that
everybody pulls up on their

567
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,160
Instagram reels or what, or
TikTok is Mr. Darcy coming out

568
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,400
of the mess?
Even right and I have different

569
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,480
Darcy's though.
Well, no, I love both Darcy's.

570
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,280
I love both Darcy's, but you
know that that Matthew Mcfaddian

571
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,760
coming out of the the the myths
of the.

572
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,280
Whatever, I'm all fidgety.
Yeah.

573
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,600
I mean, it's just a passion and
his like, I can't wait a second

574
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,760
longer.
I have to tell this girl my true

575
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,280
feelings.
And but without that build up

576
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,040
over the course of an hour and a
half in the, you know, in the

577
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,280
movie version and the six hours
and the BBC version, it's, it

578
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,600
just wouldn't work.
Matthew when he walked, it's the

579
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,840
cadence of his yes.
Oh, the long coat is everything.

580
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,840
No, the long coat for me.
I'm starting to sweat.

581
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,600
Like put a man in a long coat
and I'm telling you he's too too

582
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,159
20% more attractive than.
Throw that accent, but I'm just

583
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:26,239
I'm just saying like even I
we've obviously both also read

584
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,080
the books, right?
So even in the book there is

585
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,159
that thing.
But when you see the

586
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:34,239
personification of that, and I
think also like the other

587
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,000
moments I always think of him,
is when he stretches his hand

588
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,080
after he helps her in the right.
Yes.

589
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,760
No, I can't.
I know, I know.

590
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:43,639
Really.
Sweating now.

591
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,840
God, it's a fun conversation to
think about.

592
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,520
How do you how do you capture
those moments on the page?

593
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,320
And that's what, as artists,
we're trying to do so do.

594
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,920
You build while you write story.
For me, when I write fiction, I

595
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,160
tend to start.
My stories always start with an

596
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:10,080
emotional moment, but I have to
work on plot the most.

597
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,880
I'm honestly the weakest in
plot, so I will tend to try to

598
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,640
write the plot and with no
emotion because I know how easy

599
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,640
it will be for me to add that
much later.

600
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,520
Do you have a process that you
do while you're writing your

601
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,560
romance?
I mean, honestly, I'm all plot.

602
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,120
I immediately start with a plot.
Every single one of my books

603
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,840
starts the same way, a trip back
in time.

604
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,320
And then they have a problem to
solve and then they have to get

605
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,480
back to the modern time.
So it's got a very easy setup

606
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,120
from the yeah, if they have to
hit these certain Marks and then

607
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,680
they have famous people to meet
or, you know, scenes that they

608
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,200
need to witness to kind of
figure out what had gone on in

609
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,920
history.
So my first one is the Order of

610
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,760
the Garter.
And, and she witnessed kind of

611
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,880
the origins of that order of
knighthood back in 1344.

612
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:17,520
And then the second one was I
needed her to meet Leonardo da

613
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,600
Vinci.
And so I traced back, you know,

614
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,360
how could she have found him?
Well, he was in France for the

615
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,720
last three years of his life.
So that gave me a time period to

616
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:30,360
work with.
And what if there was a lost

617
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,240
painting?
Because I think only eight of

618
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:35,760
his paintings survived or
something like that.

619
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,920
And yet he was extremely
prolific, you know, with his

620
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,480
manuscript.
So I thought what what if they

621
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,400
discovered that there was a
painting lost to time that they

622
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,800
had gotten a record of?
And then third one was, is

623
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:56,360
Shakespeare a woman, which I
loved the setup of.

624
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,160
So all of them have kind of
these action pieces that need to

625
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,160
happen and and meanings and
personalities.

626
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:09,720
And I kind of just envision I
almost I will go to IMDb and

627
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:13,000
look for faces.
I will find actors who look

628
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,160
like, I think my characters
might look like.

629
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,360
And now AI can do that.
But yeah, it's just not not a

630
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:22,760
fan so many.
Issues there are.

631
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,400
So many issues and they just,
you know, so it's not great, but

632
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,560
I like looking for real faces
and then I'll kind of pin them

633
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,360
up in front of me to just keep
looking at their faces and

634
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,560
trying to discern, you know, how
would they react to certain

635
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,280
things?
What are What's the personality

636
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,520
behind this face?
I love that I think I didn't

637
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:49,080
find photos of like my YA which
is still something I want see my

638
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,200
hardest problem is oh this is
good wait I know.

639
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,960
OK so we all know I wrote Aya
dear to a drunk girl.

640
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,640
I got an agent with that book.
We went on sub.

641
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,880
I had to do 7R and Rs before I
got my age 7.

642
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,600
Oh my God I had one agent flat
out tell me.

643
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,240
I love it.
I love your voice, I love your

644
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:08,560
writing.
I like what you have next.

645
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,440
I don't know how to sell
anything you do.

646
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,080
Yeah, that was just like, so I
write magical realism.

647
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,920
That's my fiction is magical
realism.

648
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,240
So and young adult fiction.
So I I ended up going with this

649
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,000
one person.
We were out on sub.

650
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,280
I didn't understand who she's
sub to.

651
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,360
I would often recommend, I think
this person's a better fit, but

652
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,640
then I would be like a step too
late because they would have

653
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,400
found something too similar or
similar ish.

654
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,200
And then when we parted ways,
because we parted ways like at

655
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,720
the at the end of COVID or the
year after COVID and I got my

656
00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:48,280
work back and I read it and it
wasn't the story I ever wanted

657
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,920
to sell.
So my character had become so

658
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,960
we'll just say edgy, right?
I was like, that is not how it

659
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,840
started.
But they made me take an

660
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,840
emotional book and change it to
a plot book.

661
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,240
OK.
And so over the past two years,

662
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,720
I've rewritten it to be a plot
book.

663
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,320
I mean, an emotional book, but I
was like, but something's

664
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,880
missing.
I don't write the way I wrote 10

665
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,400
years ago.
So polishing something in a way

666
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,520
that I wouldn't write.
And I don't want to rewrite it.

667
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,080
But there's still something
there in her right that really,

668
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,320
that's a great.
Story.

669
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,920
Yeah, it was a it's a really
great story.

670
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,520
So maybe that'll come across,
but that's one of my things.

671
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,640
I'm like, I want to fix it.
When do you leave a book and let

672
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,480
it go?
And when is traditional

673
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,400
publishing just not the option?
You need any cuz there are so

674
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:46,760
many others.
Yes, and it's there are very

675
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,400
successful indie published books
out there, especially for the YA

676
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,440
market, the romantic market, all
of that sort of thing.

677
00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:01,960
And the numbers, the odds are
not in any writers favor, right

678
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,440
to get a traditional book
publishing deal.

679
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,520
It's just I liken it, and I'm
sure you're tired of this

680
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,920
analogy.
That I give to everyone, but

681
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,720
it's like, it's like a stadium
full of people auditioning for

682
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:18,840
American Idol and you get down
to your top 10.

683
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,600
And so that's your competition
that you're up against.

684
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,240
So you're right.
There's endless polishing.

685
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,600
There's, you know, rewrite and
resubmit to a ton of people.

686
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,000
I polished.
I rewrote the beginning of my

687
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,200
first novel in the trilogy for
my agent three different times.

688
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,040
The 1st time for her, the second
time based on feedback from

689
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,720
editors, and the third time
again based on feedback to more

690
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:53,360
editors.
And it didn't sell, but I love

691
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,800
how it turned out and it was a
learning process for me.

692
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,320
So I think what's important to
see is if you look back on those

693
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,920
earlier drafts, even though
maybe it had changed too much in

694
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,200
the plot direction and gotten
away from the emotions and your

695
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,920
character had changed too much,
that you're writing probably

696
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,680
improved during that time.
You learned a lot of new skills.

697
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,880
So maybe it's just putting those
two things together of the

698
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,840
writing with capturing what you
were trying to do in the 1st

699
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,360
first place.
I guess I'll just have to send

700
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,280
it to you.
I'll just finish this version

701
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,280
and I'll just send it to.
You I would love.

702
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,440
That I am in my own way because
I'm like, I wouldn't describe it

703
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,480
like this, but I don't want to
rewrite the whole thing.

704
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,200
Or it's called Dear Dead Drunk
Girl and the actual letters in

705
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,240
the book sometimes slow the
plot, but they're darlings I'm

706
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:48,720
having such difficulty killing.
Right.

707
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,000
Yeah, that's hard.
And I, you know, even though I'm

708
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,800
a nice person, I do kill
darlings.

709
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,560
I do kill a lot of darlings and
some characters and things like

710
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,120
that.
And it's, again, it's down to

711
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,240
pragmatism.
I want the book to be the best

712
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,640
that it can be.
And if people get hung up on

713
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,480
this scene, I'm always cognizant
of the fact that our readers are

714
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:17,040
very distracted that they are
going to want any excuse to pick

715
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,200
up their phone and see whether
anybody's texted.

716
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,480
If there's a new fun Instagram
Reel or TikTok or whatever, or,

717
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,480
you know, the president's done
something crazy and you know,

718
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,240
all this stuff.
And they could be like, oh,

719
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:34,120
well, this scene isn't kind of
compelling to me, So I'm going

720
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,880
to put it down.
So that's, I want to boost the

721
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:43,000
averages for their statistics
out from Kindle about when

722
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,240
people stop reading.
Yeah.

723
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,400
So you can look them up, but
they're very interesting.

724
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:56,040
So I would say that most books
do not get finished, which is a

725
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:01,000
very depressing statistic for
people who labor over every word

726
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,400
and just, you know, love.
Them so much ending.

727
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,160
Right, right.
You want them to get to that

728
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,360
happy ending or whatever ending
it is to have that, you know,

729
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:19,240
moment of, of drama or
completion romance, whatever it

730
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,400
is and just get all the
feelings.

731
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:26,360
And so if if your reader's
abandoning you because you have

732
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,640
something in there that's like
they suddenly are bored or they

733
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,360
lose track or they're not
invested in it, then that's why

734
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,640
we have to be pragmatic and, and
cut those elements so.

735
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,440
Yeah, I'm gonna have to cut.
Do you see my face?

736
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,520
And you're just listening.
You can't see my face.

737
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,080
I'm just, like, rolling my eyes.
I was like, you know, This is

738
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,320
why I work with her, because she
says it so nicely.

739
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,400
Or how do you take criticism as
a writer, you and an editor?

740
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,760
Like, when you get feedback on
your work.

741
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:57,200
How?
Do you?

742
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,360
Well, it's interesting as an
editor too, because when I send

743
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,440
out my editorial letter, it's
almost like it is a creative

744
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,680
process.
So I'm like, are they gonna like

745
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,800
me?
Are they gonna, you know, And

746
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,520
especially because they're
paying money for it, like, are

747
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,680
they gonna be happy with what
they did?

748
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:18,480
And they're, you know, so, you
know, 99% of the time they're

749
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,160
happy and satisfied and, and,
you know, ecstatic because they

750
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,920
have a solution.
They have a way, a path forward.

751
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,000
For me, it's the same thing.
Sometimes I don't agree with all

752
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:37,640
of my edits and sometimes, you
know, my editor can get a little

753
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:40,880
carried away sometimes with some
of the points that she's trying

754
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:46,000
to make, but she fills in for
so, but she also suggests some

755
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:51,080
amazing things.
So I just, it's difficult as a

756
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:56,200
writer to process the feedback
that you're getting because if

757
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,760
you're if you're getting it from
an independent editor, you don't

758
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,920
have to do everything that that
editor says, right?

759
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,640
Because it's your book, you're
paying the money, you're

760
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,600
printing it yourself.
But when you have a contract

761
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:15,000
with Big 5 publisher or regional
publisher, it's the editors

762
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,880
decision as to whether or not
you've fulfilled the the

763
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,200
complete and satisfactory
element of your contract.

764
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,080
And if you haven't, they can
cancel your contract and you

765
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,200
have to refund the advance
money.

766
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,480
So that's kind of a big stick
that editors are holding.

767
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:37,680
And I haven't had to use that
very often when I was in that

768
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:43,040
role.
But I and authors can, again,

769
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,640
pragmatism.
Authors can say, oh, this was

770
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,880
divinely inspired and whatever
else.

771
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,520
And I'm just like, well, that's
great, but it's not working.

772
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,000
Like, listen to me.
I work on a lot of books.

773
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,760
I edit, you know, thousands and
thousands of words a year,

774
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,560
hundreds of I'm like, oh, I.
Don't you do you're.

775
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:03,200
Busy.
I don't.

776
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:05,960
I don't count.
Do you think people can earn a

777
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,720
living just as a book author?
Like realistically?

778
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:14,560
Like I honestly I don't know
that I know a single author who

779
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,280
only has one job.
Very, very few.

780
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,360
And I always say never quit your
day job.

781
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,320
So very few.
I definitely encourage a

782
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,120
balance.
And I want, yeah, I want all

783
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,400
people to embrace their creative
spirit.

784
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,920
And, you know, and we all have
to pay the bills.

785
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:43,280
So luckily for me, I'm doing
what I love with my job, but

786
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:48,240
isn't necessarily expressing,
you know, creativity in that

787
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,920
different part of my brain that
I think sometimes is like is

788
00:46:53,920 --> 00:47:01,080
coming from a magical place, you
know, no, I it's not happening,

789
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,000
but it's happening from, you
know, multiple areas of my

790
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,560
brain.
So it's it's very satisfying in

791
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:12,120
that in that respect.
But no, I don't know really any

792
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:16,920
full time authors, if they're
doing it, they're also doing it

793
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,800
because they're they've got
speaking engagements.

794
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,920
Yeah.
So the books help sell the

795
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,360
speaking engagements and vice
versa.

796
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,160
So you sell books at the back of
the room, you're speaking to 200

797
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,960
people, you're making 20 bucks a
book or whatever.

798
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,400
And that is really a good driver
for income.

799
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:40,800
Or two bucks a book.
Well, two books, a book of the

800
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,240
publisher is printing it, but if
you're printing it yourself,

801
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:46,480
then hopefully you're getting a
good return I.

802
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,840
Think so.
I think like from my experience

803
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:57,680
is if it's like a $14.00 book,
half the print, the they get

804
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,920
half for printing or they get
half for distributing it and

805
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:07,480
then they get the next half for
printing or $4.00 for printing,

806
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,520
then whatever's leftover is what
you get.

807
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,800
Yeah, I try to for my, I guess
for my indie books, I kind of

808
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:19,800
price them for my clients to get
paid around almost $5 a book.

809
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,400
So you just have to look at the
competition and what other

810
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,720
people are selling their books
for because the cost of paper is

811
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:31,720
going way up again.
Again, in a pragmatic sense,

812
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:37,080
that's why we don't want the
185,000 word manuscript because

813
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:42,080
it's a, it's this big, it's the,
you know, the size of a Bible or

814
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,880
a textbook and it's
intimidating.

815
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,160
And if you're a new author and
somebody's going to have to

816
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:54,480
invest $40 on a, you know, on a
Yellow Pages type length, then

817
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,640
people might not be on board.
But if it's $70,000, seventy

818
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:06,760
thousand dollars, 70,000 words
and 18 bucks for a book and you

819
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,480
know, it's got some good blurbs
or whatever, it's got a really

820
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,960
good premise or they heard about
it somewhere, somebody

821
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,880
recommended it, that's a lot
easier sell.

822
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:20,160
So I definitely encourage people
to not go overboard, especially

823
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,720
for their first book.
You'll notice that successful

824
00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:27,360
authors, all of their books were
definitely under 100,000 words.

825
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,560
And then as they got more and
more successful, you know, they

826
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:36,880
just, they go crazy.
I have a question, do you have

827
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,840
any experience in discerning if
introverts or extroverts are

828
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,880
better writers?
Oh boy.

829
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,240
Well, extroverts are usually
good storytellers, right?

830
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:54,760
So theoretically, I find the
extroverts like tend to narrate

831
00:49:54,760 --> 00:50:00,080
their entire lives and that may.
I'm, I consider myself an

832
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,160
introvert.
So like I find that I, I'm an

833
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,920
expressive introvert because
like after you and I talked

834
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,920
today, I won't probably say more
than 20 more.

835
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,760
Yeah, I'm already done.
And I love being around creative

836
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,320
community and it jazzes me and
it gets me excited.

837
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,040
But that's because I'm alone a
lot.

838
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,320
Right, yeah, me too.
You know, I work at home on

839
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,680
books all day and and I'm alone
a lot, but I'm an I consider

840
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,400
myself an ambivert.
So like, I can switch on to

841
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,360
being an extrovert when I need
to be, and then I can switch

842
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,440
off, but I definitely need
downtime afterwards to like, do

843
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,720
my routine and be boring.
But if I were going from night

844
00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:42,040
out, night out, night out, five
nights a week, I would be dead.

845
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,760
But that's a good question about
who's the better writer.

846
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,560
Obvious.
I would say, obviously I work

847
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,480
with a ton more introverts than
I do extroverts.

848
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,720
So the extroverts the probably
that I'm working with are

849
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,720
working more on nonfiction.
I don't think they have an

850
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:04,040
internal creative life like we
might.

851
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:05,760
I don't know.
That's a theory.

852
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,320
I love my extroverted friends.
I don't mean to we're.

853
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,000
Not putting anyone down.
I was just like thinking about

854
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,840
that because sometimes I wonder
if they're completely

855
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,080
extroverted, if all the energy
is going out, how do you direct

856
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:19,920
it down?
That's exactly right.

857
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,480
I think that's exactly right.
I don't think that.

858
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:24,840
Yeah.
Because.

859
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,880
Because they're looking for
external validation, perhaps.

860
00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:33,600
And I'm trying to go into a
world that I've invented and

861
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,840
meet up with characters.
You know, there's that whole

862
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,200
book boyfriend thing going on
right now.

863
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,920
And I'm like, I have made the
best book boyfriends.

864
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,520
Like, I love my book boyfriends.
They're far better than any you

865
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,360
know, you know, I'm sure to the
exception of your husband, but.

866
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:51,480
Whatever, whatever, whatever
this is.

867
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,080
Fiction relieving fiction.
Boyfriends are fantastic.

868
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,000
Just like you know, Mr. Farsi I.
Found this thing on Book Talk.

869
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,560
I really try to stay out of any
intense conversations.

870
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,680
I'm just more of a lurker.
Yeah, but I've found this whole

871
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:16,320
world of narrators, like book
talk narrators.

872
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,600
There's like all these women are
they're feral, they're feral

873
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,160
over it.
And and once it gets on your

874
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,000
page, I'm just like, what what
is this?

875
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:30,280
What like that takes the
imagination just like some other

876
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,760
next level and I am feral in.
What way though I'm?

877
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,680
I'm I'll just privately send you
a link.

878
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,520
OK.
It's it's in a way that like, I

879
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,200
was like you're checking your
fantasy into the real world.

880
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,800
And I, I mean, I guess more
power to you, but.

881
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,280
OK, Yeah, yeah.
That's.

882
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,680
I don't know that I could go.
I mean, it's enough that I've

883
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:55,640
written this trilogy.
But again, it's a very exposing

884
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:57,320
thing.
I think the people on TikTok are

885
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:01,320
exposing themselves in a
creative way that writers are

886
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,360
doing, but just in very short
snippets.

887
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,160
And you know what drives me
crazy on TikTok?

888
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:10,760
I'm just gonna say it.
Those people that do, here's me

889
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:15,240
getting for work, ready for work
and it's like 30 different shots

890
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:17,480
of them.
I'm like, this must have taken

891
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:22,120
you 3 hours to film from every
single different angle.

892
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,000
You're not getting ready for
work.

893
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,360
You're not going anywhere.
Like what is this day?

894
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,800
This was done a Saturday or a
Sunday.

895
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:33,200
I don't know how many cameras
you have set up around here.

896
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,920
It could be 1 and then you're
going from blah to blah and it

897
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,160
drives me insane.
It's, it's so artificial.

898
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,000
It's like.
Jumping tents.

899
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,800
I think actually I'm
interviewing a couple content

900
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,080
creators and that's part of what
I want to talk to them about is

901
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,160
like how, how do you see the
world like that?

902
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,560
And then show it like that?
Because it's not how I see

903
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,960
story.
Yeah, yeah.

904
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,440
And I appreciate it
aesthetically, but as a human,

905
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,600
I'm like, what are you doing to
yourself?

906
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,120
Like this is seems like a
horrible existence that you're

907
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,800
putting yourself through.
Well, it's definitely predicated

908
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,560
and validated.
Like if you don't get the clicks

909
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,080
and likes right, there's a
content create.

910
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,400
I can't think of his name.
He's younger.

911
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,360
He's like for me, he's 20
something, maybe early 30s.

912
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,640
Like for me, quite young.
And he's gone through all of

913
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,120
these iterations of his
personality, trying to find who

914
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,400
he is and discovering who you
are and knowing who you are,

915
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:30,920
right?
That's like a lot of what I was

916
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:36,120
doing as a healer.
And watching them navigate the

917
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,040
waves and criticism and
attention of social media on top

918
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,760
of it, Yeah, is like something I
could never handle.

919
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:47,120
Like when I did my essay about
getting harassed on set and

920
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:51,840
going viral when there was only
TikTok and waking up to 5000

921
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,920
messages literally of from
people I didn't know telling me

922
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,000
there was mistakes in my essay.
God.

923
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:02,200
Because they I was waiting for
my editorial letter.

924
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:07,400
The contract was they bought it
at it and then published, but

925
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,760
they published without the edit
so I'm like.

926
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,480
And they didn't change the name,
so the first names were the

927
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:13,160
first.
Names.

928
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,000
No, I remember that.
That was a big that really blew

929
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,120
up.
It did, but if that happened

930
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,640
nowadays, I wouldn't been able
to handle it.

931
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:23,960
That's like that's too.
That's.

932
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:25,440
It's a lot.
It's a lot.

933
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,680
They're really exposing
themselves to a lot.

934
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,600
And one of the heartbreaking
things I see on TikTok is, and

935
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:36,760
some people I know are doing
this are like, you know, nodding

936
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,520
enthusiastically and holding up
a book if they liked it or like,

937
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,640
shaking their head if they
didn't like it.

938
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,360
And it's like, oh, if I were the
author who worked on their book

939
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,120
and they were just shaking their
head.

940
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,840
And I think that's efficient and
whatever.

941
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,880
If you're going to show 10 books
that have just come out, but I'd

942
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,840
rather get a star rating, I'd
rather have a review.

943
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,200
I'd rather have like something
to grasp onto other than a

944
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,120
person shaking their head like
why the book didn't work for

945
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:07,960
them.
That just hurts where you're not

946
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:12,120
going to talk about the big bad
wolf, which is what Amazon is

947
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,600
for me.
They're the big bad wolf.

948
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,160
Yeah, because they're a
necessary evil.

949
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:17,800
We've made them that in our
world.

950
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,760
I last week they took my book
down saying that I violated

951
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,200
things and then I wasn't who I
said I was, which they had done

952
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,680
like 3 years ago before about
something else.

953
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,720
That's insane.
So because I am meticulous in my

954
00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:32,520
bookkeeping, I was like actually
you've done this to me before

955
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,000
and here's your letter and this
is how you resolved it and this

956
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,560
is the date you resolved it.
Please resolve it again.

957
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,760
And within a day they did.
But like, you have to go through

958
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:42,600
that.
Oh my God, all my work.

959
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,960
And they take down all my work.
So my work that appears in other

960
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:50,520
publications comes down holy.
Moses, that's awful.

961
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:57,400
No, I know the indie editor
author is up against a lot of

962
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,200
really ridiculousness.
It's bots.

963
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,080
They're bots.
And bots and, and you're up

964
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,080
against third party sellers who
swoop in and suddenly they've

965
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,520
got your book and they're
selling it for $30.00, but it

966
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,480
only retail cost $16.00.
But they're, they can't get the

967
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,960
prime version of your book for
some reason.

968
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,080
So it's very confusing to the
author.

969
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,720
And all the author wants to do
is create and they don't want to

970
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:30,120
be, you know, they don't want to
be stuck arguing with whatever

971
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,560
over these dumb things.
And it's so, it's so upsetting

972
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:36,640
and.
So I would like to tell people

973
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:38,120
don't take nose.
The first answer.

974
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,360
It took me two weeks of nose and
Amazon where they're like, no,

975
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,240
we did the right thing.
I'm like, no, you didn't.

976
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,360
Yeah, no, you didn't.
No, you didn't.

977
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,920
And just like, it's just like an
author, you get told no often,

978
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,440
but just ignore it, keep going.
Just keep.

979
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,120
I mean, it's like you have to
think of yourself in sales,

980
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,520
right?
You're just, you have to connect

981
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,680
with the right person at the
right time who has the money and

982
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,240
is ready to go.
And it might take 100 times, it

983
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,760
might take 150.
You just don't know how many

984
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,560
times you're going to have to
hear no, but people have to get

985
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:16,360
used to hearing no for sure.
Yeah, that and you know, the

986
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:20,560
arbiters of taste, right?
They might not be your people,

987
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:24,160
which is what I think indie is.
I don't do sub stack.

988
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,920
I was always very tempted to,
but like, there are avenues to

989
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:33,080
find your readers and your
people, and there's more than

990
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:34,760
one way.
When I start thinking of all the

991
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,000
ways, it just overwhelms me and
I just shut down.

992
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,360
But some people really thrive in
that.

993
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,920
And you can think about even
starting a newsletter.

994
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,640
You can start building with this
small thing and then begin to

995
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,720
monetize.
I think there's a bajillion ways

996
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,560
to do that.
So I wanna know, So what are you

997
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:58,400
personally working on right now?
And and when is it coming out

998
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,280
and how can people find you in?
Well, thank you.

999
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,480
Let me see what my working title
is right now.

1000
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:10,320
So it's called From Tortured
Artist to Rapturous Writer,

1001
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:15,560
Strategies for Surviving the
Wild Emotional right Ride of

1002
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:20,080
writing and Publishing.
And it's hopefully coming out in

1003
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,880
September.
And I'm indie publishing it.

1004
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:29,360
And I've hired my own editor, a
copy editor, book designer, and

1005
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,080
it's going to be fabulous.
And like you were saying, I'm

1006
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,320
going to, you know, potentially
be doing a sub stack.

1007
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,960
I've literally got my form
pulled up on this Chrome right

1008
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,760
now.
Like do I even?

1009
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:42,880
Psychic I'm.
Yeah.

1010
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,080
Do I even have time to do a sub
stack?

1011
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:50,680
Like there's a lot of great ones
out there on the book publishing

1012
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,160
process, but I'm not sure from
this particular angle.

1013
00:59:54,160 --> 01:00:00,440
But I just feel like I over the
my last 30 years of, of being in

1014
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:06,480
this business and I have just
seen a lot of reactions held a

1015
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:11,000
lot of hands.
So there are, you know, emotions

1016
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:16,240
like desire to start,
perfectionism, joy, inadequacy,

1017
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:22,000
obsession, malaise, inspiration,
feeling lucky because I feel

1018
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,840
like.
Writing is a lucky career

1019
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,920
because you're not up on stage
doing it.

1020
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:32,040
You, you know, you can't.
You can't flub theoretically in

1021
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,920
front of millions of people if
you're an actor or something

1022
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,280
like that.
Nervous star, stubborn,

1023
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,880
disappointed, shy,
overconfident.

1024
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,520
I have a few goods.
Yeah, there's.

1025
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:43,720
Overcoming.
I can't wait to read.

1026
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:48,160
Those yeah, angry, angry over a
bad reviews.

1027
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,680
So there's there's so many
emotions that get caught up in

1028
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,400
writing and publishing and I
want to take people so that

1029
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,880
they're not stalled.
They don't they keep pressing

1030
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:02,520
forward with their books.
They keep pressing forward with

1031
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:07,600
their dreams.
Even if 100 people read their

1032
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,680
book and get something out of
it, it's still worth it.

1033
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:15,000
I think it's still such a fun
creative process.

1034
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:20,400
It's life giving that I've had.
I have writers in their 90s who

1035
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,560
are still writing novels and
they're like, well, I can't, you

1036
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,160
know, I'm not mobile.
I can't go very far, but I can

1037
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,640
still write.
And people who have had their

1038
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:35,520
parents are spouses who pass
away, who've been ill for a long

1039
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:37,440
time.
And they'll write me the very

1040
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,800
next day and said, thank God,
I've got this project to work on

1041
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:46,000
because it's giving me life.
It's giving me a reason to keep

1042
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,160
going and give me something to
focus on that's not terribly

1043
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,000
sad.
So I really appreciate, you

1044
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:54,840
know, what writers are going
through.

1045
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,840
And if I can help them in some
way, that's that's what I'm

1046
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,680
doing with this book.
I know you can.

1047
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,720
I, I, I will devour your book.
I'll probably just keep it right

1048
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:07,800
on my desk right next to me so
when I'm whatever manic mood

1049
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:11,280
that might you could just like
you can thumb to it.

1050
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:14,600
Yeah, I'll talk.
I'll try to talk you down or or

1051
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:16,480
talk you up and say.
Come away.

1052
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,200
I definitely go up and down.
I think that is part of it.

1053
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,040
So do you people?
Do you want people to find you

1054
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,080
at betsythorpe.com or Hope
Carol?

1055
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:28,120
Betsythorpe.com and Hope Carol
are interlinked.

1056
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:32,520
So Hope Carol is my pen name for
the romance trilogy and Betsy

1057
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,880
Thorpe is is more of my kind of
business persona.

1058
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,240
Business persona, it's me.
It's not a persona, it's me.

1059
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,200
And yeah, so.
Air quote.

1060
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,600
Yeah.
So Betsy Thorpe is where I do

1061
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:52,440
all my business and they're
they're links to both and I'm on

1062
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:54,120
Instagram and all that good
stuff.

1063
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:56,000
Yeah, OK.
My and my favorite moment,

1064
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,120
right.
So if you came within morning

1065
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,120
label, Miss Betsy, what would it
be?

1066
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,040
My gosh.
Yeah, sometimes.

1067
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:09,480
OK, so and you might have
noticed if if people are

1068
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:15,440
watching on video, I will look
up when I'm talking sometimes

1069
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:22,080
and to grasp the right word and
sometimes people will follow my

1070
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,800
vision and look, see what is she
looking at?

1071
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:30,640
So I'm not looking away.
There's not like a plane in the

1072
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,720
sky that's falling.
I am just searching for the

1073
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:36,920
right words.
So maybe that's maybe that's one

1074
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,360
I don't, I don't know.
Is that a good one?

1075
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:39,200
Yeah.
Why?

1076
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,200
There's no, there's no wrong
answer.

1077
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,680
I like that.
I I'm like trying to think if

1078
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,440
I've ever really noticed about
that.

1079
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:49,480
I always find you quite
intentional in everything you

1080
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,440
do.
And I like that about you.

1081
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:54,800
And that doesn't mean that
you're not fun because you're

1082
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:56,400
fun and you're funny, all of
that.

1083
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,760
But you are intentional in
choosing your words.

1084
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:03,200
So I can very now very much
imagine you looking that way.

1085
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:06,240
When I usually look up, it's
because I see something like

1086
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:10,840
something otherworldly, right?
Maybe we can get them to meet.

1087
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:12,520
Yes.
And like, just write the words

1088
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:14,720
for us and then we just have to
like get them that way.

1089
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,320
Well, The funny thing that the
older you get, the more words

1090
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:22,440
you lose out of your brain.
So it's so upsetting.

1091
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,480
And I think that I was so
articulate and amazing in my

1092
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:30,680
20s, and it's like on the deep,
the more I want to write, the

1093
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:35,600
less words come to me easily.
So it's upsetting, but thank God

1094
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:37,800
for this thesaurus.
I think you must have heard my

1095
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,840
interview with my last person.
He's an actress and author, and

1096
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,960
I told her my vocabulary is 100
words.

1097
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:49,000
I'm really good with those 100
words because sometimes when I

1098
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,120
read a draft I was like, could I
use the same word more like, Oh

1099
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:55,720
my God, circle, circle, circle.
Oh yes, and that's a common

1100
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,480
people have their ticks and
their favorite and it's it's

1101
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:02,520
partly my job to tell them what
they are so that they see when

1102
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:04,680
they do that.
Yeah, I'm like looking away

1103
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:07,120
embarrassed.
I was like I.

1104
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:08,080
Don't do that.
Yeah.

1105
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,400
Actually, I owe you a book
really soon.

1106
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:11,480
I'll have to tell you about
that.

1107
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:13,520
I'm excited.
I'm excited.

1108
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,040
I'm excited.
I can't wait for you to be like

1109
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,640
yes, no, no, no, yes, no, no,
no, yes.

1110
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,680
It'll have a path, it'll have a
direction, and then it'll be

1111
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,160
released to the readers and they
will be very happy.

1112
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:28,720
Anyway, with our time is up, I
just want to say thank you again

1113
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,840
so much.
Thank you so much, this was so

1114
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,080
much fun.
I feel lucky because you're my

1115
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:36,240
friend, but now I've gotten to
share you with everybody.

1116
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,040
And again, if you want to work
with Betsy, please look her up.

1117
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,840
She is everything that you heard
here and more.

1118
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:49,360
She really does have a way and a
gift of finding the story that

1119
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:52,880
you being to have down fiction
or non fiction, it doesn't

1120
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:56,920
matter, the genre, which is
partly magical in and of itself,

1121
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:02,200
and bringing out your voice and
your story.

1122
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,360
And she does that for you and
she does it for herself.

1123
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,560
So everyone read her books,
obviously.

1124
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:08,400
So thank.
You.

1125
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:10,040
Thank you, Holly.
I left it.