When the Plan Falls Apart… Follow the Path Instead | Michael Cain

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Welcome to the Holly Hughes
Podcast, where creative people

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talk about life outside the
corporate box.

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Today, the Holly Hughes Podcast
is welcoming Michael Caine, an

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award-winning film producer and
creative change maker who's

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turned storytelling into a force
for impact.

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Welcome, Michael, It's so good
to see you.

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Great to see you too, Ollie.
Long time.

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It's amazing, like the
relationships that even though

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they're old and maybe not so
kept connected, there is still

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this story thread that we have.
Because I started in the

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business and you were one of the
first people I worked with in

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film and TV actually.
So how, why don't we start with

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that?
Like how did you start on your

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adventure in all things film and
television production?

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Was that like when you were
young, you were like, I have to

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make movies?
Was that a thought you ever had?

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Yeah, I always love movies and
and growing up in a little town

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in North Carolina, Albemarle, we
had a drive in screen that was

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like a the 10 minute walk.
And as a little kid, that's the

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way I experienced the world and
usually climbing underneath the

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barbed wire fence and sitting
next to a pole unless my parents

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would take the station wagon
there.

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That's I love movies and grew
up, moved to Dallas and the

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Texas Chainsaw Massacre
terrified me like the week

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before I read.
But that was the thing like I

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lived in that world of watching
films and when I started

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choosing my career, I actually
went into commercial real estate

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back in my 20s.
But Radio T VS what I started

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out doing and I actually, Lou
Down and Phillips and I were in

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acting classes together.
So and we would, I wouldn't say

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compete for roles cause I'm
monotone and he's a much better

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actor.
But it was pre La Bamba.

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And so kind of seeing even Helm
going off into film, you know,

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there was always this OK, that
exists.

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But I was doing commercial real
estate and making a bunch of

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money and in my 20s and they, it
sort of took me off path for a

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while.
And luckily the entire SNL

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scandal happened and everything
went under and they to our

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country and they repoed 10
investment properties that I had

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at the age of 26.
And that's when you find out

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your base, like you figure out
like what you're about is when

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you lose everything when you
really couldn't have done

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anything different.
And so it was the best thing

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that could have ever happened.
And I spent the two years

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figuring it out.
I had a a girlfriend at the time

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who invited the head of the film
school over for SMU for dinner.

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And her dad was vice president
of Club Corp that owns 200

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country clubs.
So he came and so he said you

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should apply to the American
Film Institute.

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And I knew that the American
Film Institute is where David

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Lynchwood, Blue Velvet sort of
was, that there's that kind of

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movies out there.
So I applied to the American

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Film Institute, didn't get in.
I applied to ask him.

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You didn't get in.
Was on a sailboat trip in the

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Virgin Islands with 11 people on
242 foot Morgans and went out

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into a dinghy into the middle of
the ocean and said God tell me

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what I should do because at that
point I was like $200,000 in

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debt and lost my house, lost my
car, lost my girlfriend, lost

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everything other than my
parents.

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No reason to go back to America
and went out in the stingy and I

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literally heard a voice say film
like out in the middle of

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nowhere in the Virgin Islands
and I said OK I should figure

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this out.
So I went back and we were about

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to buy a club in Deep Ellum with
two buddies of mine, and I got a

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message from my mother that AFI
had called the American Film

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Institute.
And I called them up and they

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said if you can be here in two
weeks, then we have a place for

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you.
Because somebody dropped out.

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And all these years later, if
they hadn't dropped out, I

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probably wouldn't be in film the
way I owe.

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It I love that, but I love that
you actually listened to the

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message.
So many people wouldn't.

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I ended up in LA cuz I called
Chanticleer films cuz I knew a

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friend dated a guy who got a job
there and he was really good

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looking but not the brightest.
Maybe he was like really nice,

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but like I intellectually I
didn't whatever.

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I was like, well, if he got a
job there, I could get a job

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there.
And they said to me, if you can

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cut here Monday, you can have an
internship.

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I'm like, I'll be there.
It was Thursday when I just like

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left my roommate three months of
rent and landed on in the living

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room floor of my friend's
apartment in Burbank and just

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went borrowed car borrowed
Thomas guide.

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I had no idea what I was doing,
but I was like, OK, opportunity,

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I'm going I.
Think that's the best way to do

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it?
I didn't even know the people

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who I moved in with and they
lived in Redondo Beach and I was

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going.
To you landed in the bubble.

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Nice.
I I literally like someone I'd

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met one time who'd said, if
you're ever out, come stay with

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us.
I'm living on their living room

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floor on no mattress.
And there was an earthquake and

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the winking next to me fell and
hit the ground.

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This is night one living there.
On Sunday, I had driven to the

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American Film Institute, and
there was like 30 minutes.

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I'm like, OK, this isn't so bad.
And then on Monday, I drove in.

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There was an hour and a half and
I was like, I have to move now

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like this.
You have no idea.

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You just know you got to go
sometime.

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I love that you like did it
because if people are just

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listening to your voice and they
don't know who you are, you're

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very steady.
I'm sure you got ruffled.

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I'm sure you did.
But those aren't my memories of

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you.
Where is when you work in

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production, There's usually high
tension.

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Now, knowing that you had that
many losses, I didn't know that

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about you either because I have
that too.

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So I lost my home in a fire, and
then I lost my home in the

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Northridge earthquake.
I lost everything, no place to

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stay.
So when you are in those places

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of well, you got nothing left to
lose.

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That's a giant part of like the
losses are so much about what

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build your character.
And if you take those as

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learning lessons and you go, all
right, I know what it's like to

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lose everything.
And that gives me actually an

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advantage over a lot of people
who don't.

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You want to go like that's cool,
but when it doesn't work out,

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you got to keep going.
You can't give up on your dream.

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And I, that's always been one of
the things that I feel lucky

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about.
It could even be a bit of an

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issues that I never give up on
anything.

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My as my wife will sometimes be
like, please give up on that.

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So it's interesting because you
don't really get retrospective

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about your own stuff until
somebody asks you.

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And I started looking at the
things that I've been lucky

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enough to do because I really
feel like there's a lot of

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people who haven't been as
lucky.

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I've been in the career more
than 27 years, but literally

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looking at all of it, I just
think when most of it has just

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been like there's a path and
with the path and the path may

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vary, but it's still part of the
flow.

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It's like being on the river and
you're still going down that

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path.
At times you may go off a bit,

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but as long as you know where
you want to go and you're

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willing to sort of vary so that
you're not just stagnant, I

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think that's that's the key for
a lot of us.

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There's things like your home
burning down.

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For some people, that would be
it.

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They'd just be like, oh, I'm
finished.

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And I think that the the people
who get where they're want to go

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are the ones who realize that's
just part of this journey.

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And there's the highs and the
lows.

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I think that's part of like how
I evaluate people though, right?

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So like, I'm pretty quick to be
like, how real are you?

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Like I loved LA, Like when I
left, I was, I really went

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because it's not a place I
wanted to raise my child, right?

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This is not the environment I
wanted her to be in.

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And you know, LA life is a whole
other thing and, and I wanted to

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be a mom, which is very much not
an LA mentality.

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It's the one exceedingly
traditional thing about me is

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that I really wanted to be a mom
to her and not worry about, you

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know, the actor who loses their
script or what happened on

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location.
I was like, I'm letting that go.

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I waited a long time to be a
mom, but the storyteller in me

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always still existed.
It just had to like shift gears.

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In which way will I tell story?
So when you decided film school

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and you loved film, did you want
to set the mood?

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What made you get into producing
instead of directing or some

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other cinematography?
Because I think you have an eye.

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Like you have a really good
visual eye for setting and

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story.
So that would have been an

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option for you as well.
I actually because I was a

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photographer all throughout high
school and into college and love

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photography and applied actually
to the American Film Institute

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as a cinematographer.
I must be psychic.

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They called up and said we have
a place for you as a producer

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and granted our only thing I
said to get into the American

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Film Institute was a letter.
I I had no giant resume.

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I told them how me working in
commercial real estate, that I

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was used to putting together
deals and I was used to getting

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parties to work together, but
that I also had an I where I

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could spot like an amazing
opportunity or a story.

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Because you know, if you're
getting a property and you're

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going to turn it into something
else, you're basically a story

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teller.
But if AFI had called back and

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said, cool, you're in the
cinematography program, I would

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be probably a cinematographer
now.

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But I think that's the element
of fate that comes into play.

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And it's the flexibility of
going, OK, so that's where the

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path is leading me.
And I've gotten to do second

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unit cinematography on film, so
I've gotten to direct things.

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All of those came to starting
out as a producer.

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And I love the role of producer.
I mean, I love being with

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creative people and helping them
meet their goals and helping a

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director guide them through.
And if you remember when you and

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I work together, we oversaw a
lot of the post.

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I think learning editing is such
a critical piece to being a

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great everything director,
producer, cinematographer.

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Because if you understand when
you're filming to go like you're

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only going to need it through
this bar or by the way, while

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you're here, should you get
this?

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Because that's what a good
producer does, is they are

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backing the director and saying
what about this?

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And back in the day it was film.
It wasn't like, you know, data

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like now it's not a problem.
Then it's short ends.

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What are you going to do?
What are we, what can we grab?

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How much is left in the can?
Like all of those other.

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But those scrambly thoughts I
actually kind of really enjoyed.

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But I think one of the things
that you have as a gift, even

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you must recognize it because
you've mentioned it a few times,

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is you are really good at
pulling people together and

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having them work for you.
You are a really good leader.

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You're not overbearing, but you
have, you know, demands.

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It's an an amazing skill and,
and I think more people in the

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world could use it right now.
But you were really good at

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making people want to work for
you and then having them be

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loyal.
Well, that's weird, but I don't

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know if you could even read
that.

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Let's see my daughter's pieces
that are better in here.

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But I've always felt like if you
go into things with a certain

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amount of respect for everyone
and knowing that the the final

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goal is that we all have to look
beyond sort of our issues to get

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there.
There was a great administrator

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at the American Film Institute,
the one who actually called up

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and said, we have a place for
you.

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And I watched her later as a
director and a writer.

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We're just going to war.
And she was like, you are going

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to, you are going to film,
you'll be shooting tomorrow

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morning.
You're going to keep going.

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And she never allowed that sort
of this isn't going to happen to

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enter the equation.
There was like, it absolutely

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will happen.
And we will be showing this

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thing in a week.
And I learned a lot from even

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00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,040
just that one moment with her,
which she was always respectful

225
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,760
and she always treated people
with kindness.

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00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,600
And I think, you know, learning
50 below budget films that we

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00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,680
started out working on, you
know, those were it was right

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00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,560
like short ends.
It was, you know, do we have the

229
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:28,520
money to do this?
Can we cheat this?

230
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,800
Can we figure out a way?
But there was also the

231
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,720
occasional the character that go
beyond and to be rude to people

232
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,840
and my whole thing be like, no,
that's not going to happen here.

233
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,720
That isn't who we are.
We're better than that.

234
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,920
We're always going to be the set
where people enjoy themselves

235
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,440
and where people feel like
they're contributing and they're

236
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,200
respected.
And I think that's the one of

237
00:13:55,200 --> 00:14:00,040
the big lessons that I've tried
to impart throughout is that,

238
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,480
you know, our time together is
going to be pleasurable.

239
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,360
Even if it's hard, it's still
going to where we're going to

240
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,120
look over at each other and be
like, OK, yeah, we're doing it

241
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,600
together.
I like how you just just

242
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,480
paraphrase it like, well, it'll
be hard because production's

243
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,560
brutal, right?
I don't actually know what it's

244
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:19,120
like anymore because my
storytelling now is on paper or,

245
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,760
you know, podcasting, whatever
written words.

246
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,000
So I'm like, really curious
because what we'll just call

247
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,920
them low budgets.
We started in the low budget

248
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,600
world.
I remember working with you when

249
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,600
we had one in prep, one shooting
and one in post, right?

250
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,280
But so many talented
cinematographers learn their

251
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,600
craft there.
So many huge screenwriters came

252
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,400
through art boards like these
people.

253
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,520
It was a stepping stone back in
the 90s, right?

254
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,960
And nowadays I'm kind of
curious, this doesn't really

255
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,080
exist, right?
There's, there's not like a

256
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,080
season where things get shot.
There's the business is

257
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,320
radically changed, right?
How did you evolve with that?

258
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,640
So how did you go from, let's
say low budget Cormanesque kind

259
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,680
of Red Shoe Diaries stuff that
we worked on to these bigger

260
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:09,600
projects?
It's.

261
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,240
Just part of that going with the
flow, you know, and and earning

262
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:19,000
trust and particularly people
with the money sitting there and

263
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:25,000
going, God, they deliver on
time, on budget looks fantastic.

264
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,160
I can sell it or it's sold
already.

265
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,120
And so I'm able to do it.
But if you think about it, I'm

266
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:35,320
just doing David Dobkin is one
of the directors and we gave him

267
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,120
his first narrative short, you
know, and that was something at

268
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,680
the time for him that he was
ready to do it.

269
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,160
He done like his great NYU film
and but this was like the first

270
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,000
thing where he got paid for.
And so now to have him go on and

271
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,400
doing Wedding Crashers and
Shanghai Knights and Stick and

272
00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:00,080
you know, the Vince Vaughn
series that's on, it's like we

273
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,280
got to help people get started.
And I think that Wally Fister

274
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,040
worked with us on a project, and
Wally went on to win an Academy

275
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,560
Award for Inception as the
cinematographer Janice Kaminsky,

276
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,680
who went on to win for
Schindler's List.

277
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,600
I didn't mean to do that, that
the Mario Fiore, all of them

278
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,000
were people who they needed
somebody who respected them and

279
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,720
who saw their talent to support
them.

280
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,920
And I always felt lucky to be
that piece of the equation.

281
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,560
And it's the same thing with
film festivals, Like film

282
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,320
festivals really, you are,
you're looking out for people

283
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,560
and you're both this conduit
between the creator and the

284
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,800
storytellers and the public in
the audience.

285
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,760
And the, the most exciting
moment for me is as the lights

286
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,400
go down and I've already
introduced the film and tell

287
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,200
them that, you know, I'll see
you in an hour and a half on the

288
00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,680
other side.
We're going to meet the film

289
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,600
makers and have a conversation
because I know what they're

290
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,319
about to go through.
Like it's the part of the

291
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:09,839
equation that's so exciting
because if you get it right,

292
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:13,440
they're changed forever.
You know, it's one of those.

293
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,119
And all that was a bit
accidental for me because as I

294
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:22,319
was doing the Rodger Corman ish
films, we did 22 in three years,

295
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,520
delivered from concept to
delivery.

296
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,520
But I came out of that sort of
disillusioned.

297
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,080
Like these aren't the kind of
films I want to make anymore.

298
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,040
Like, no offense, but I I need
to sort of focus on something

299
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,880
bigger.
And my mentors at the time,

300
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,280
Denise Dinovi, she's the one
who, well, Chris Taylor, her

301
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,240
former husband, they were polite
and nice to everyone.

302
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,240
They were going to get the job
done, but they were working with

303
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,280
like Tim Burton and Michael
Lehman and really visionary

304
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,760
people.
And I think that was something I

305
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,400
really learned from them was
watching that between her and

306
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,840
Michael Brahman, who produced
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern and

307
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,320
the Heidi Chronicles and six
films for TNT and Amblin.

308
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,520
And they both said you should do
those Corman films.

309
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,360
They were the like, that would
be what I would do if I were

310
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,760
where you were.
Because you're going to meet

311
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,040
film makers and help them in
their careers and you're going

312
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,800
to learn budgeting, you're going
to learn distribution, you're

313
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,400
going to learn all of it and
then go off and do something

314
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:30,960
else.
The reason I went to film

315
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,240
schools because stories of hope
for what I wanted to do.

316
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,440
It took me a long time to get
back there, but I didn't.

317
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,200
I'd help the Santa Monica Film
Festival start.

318
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,720
I just loaned them a three
quarter inch deck in ATV and 30

319
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,080
folding chairs and that was
their first festival.

320
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,280
And I got a call.
My dad.

321
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,560
I had cancer, flew back home the
next morning, found out that it

322
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,080
was the kind of cancer that
wasn't.

323
00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,960
He wasn't going to make it from
pancreatic and literally changed

324
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,800
my world.
So two weeks later, I'd sublet

325
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,360
out my apartment in Santa Monica
and had moved back to Dallas

326
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,560
into the room I grew up in as a
kid and to take him to the

327
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,960
hospital every day and take him
for treatment.

328
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,560
So that was another one of those
like tragedy.

329
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,200
You said this, make the best of
what tragedy?

330
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,800
And for me, being next to my
father every day was the best

331
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,400
thing I should possibly do and
had an idea because when you go

332
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,320
with the American Film
Institute, people in Dallas are

333
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,960
very respectful of oh, OK,
here's somebody and David Lynch,

334
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,080
Darren Aronofsky, Walling
Fister, all these people.

335
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,360
But they wanted to hear what I
had to say about their movies

336
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,680
and Kit Carson.
He wrote Paris, TX and

337
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,240
Breathless and was from Dallas.
And I pitched this idea of what

338
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,400
if we started a Film Festival in
de Battle and the punk rock

339
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,640
district from the 80s and the
jazz Blues district from the 30s

340
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,360
and 40s.
And that was sort of like the

341
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:07,800
beginning of all of it.
But it was also the beginning of

342
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,440
not thinking about me.
Only up to that point, I was in

343
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,720
that Hollywood circle of like,
I'm making money, I'm making

344
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,720
movies, I go to dinner parties
and there's Seal and, you know,

345
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,280
like Heidi Klum and.
They're they ask you what you do

346
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,960
and you're at the point where
you're kind of going like, oh, I

347
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,640
make mayonnaise commercials
because you're so tired of

348
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,840
talking about what you do in the
industry because everyone thinks

349
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:31,240
you're a producer, you'll hire
them.

350
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,520
And suddenly I was like, oh, I'm
taking care of somebody with

351
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,640
cancer.
And it started a whole and then

352
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,480
I'm taking care of film makers
by starting a Film Festival that

353
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,000
raises money for cancer.
And so that's the journey once

354
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,480
again.
Wouldn't mind decision.

355
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,560
It was like the film Voice in
the Ocean.

356
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,360
Sometimes you just listen for
what the planet tells you to do.

357
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,440
By the time I left, I had become
what I didn't like, right?

358
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,920
I was bitter.
I was right.

359
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:05,240
I was like, I took my sabbatical
from LA when I was like 28, and

360
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,480
I was just bitter and burned out
and wondering why everyone just

361
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,680
like me in the job I was in when
I didn't want the job I was in.

362
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,080
They're like, but you're so good
at it.

363
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,400
I'm like, then how do I become
bad at it?

364
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,680
What am I missing?
And I definitely don't think I

365
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,600
had grace enough to schmooze.
Like I just was like, I just

366
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,960
worked 18 hours.
I'm tired.

367
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,000
And I remember like looking
like, how is he always so

368
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:36,320
fucking easygoing?
That always was so surprising to

369
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,080
me.
I had this memory of it was at

370
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,240
whatever those B movies we were
doing at in your corner office.

371
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:48,240
And then you had this deck of
cards that had images and had

372
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,200
just started therapy and you're
like, come on, Holly, just pick

373
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,840
an image now.
I don't know why you said this

374
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,680
to me.
Like I picked it and it was like

375
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,280
a camera lens.
I just started hysterically

376
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,960
crying.
You were like, oh, that was not

377
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,680
what I was expecting.
But I think for me it was the

378
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,800
beginning of turning inward and
learning that how I knew to

379
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,920
work, how I modeled because my
dad is very much an alcoholic.

380
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,240
He's sober now, but he's an
alcoholic workaholic.

381
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,160
And like, I only knew work ethic
from from him.

382
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,920
I only knew that you burn
yourself out and please until

383
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,600
you can't do it anymore.
And then you wake up and you do

384
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,000
it again and you shove
everything down.

385
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,920
And I think I started realizing
I couldn't shove it down

386
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,480
anymore.
And when I saw that lens, I was

387
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:31,800
like, Oh my God, I felt so
exposed.

388
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,760
And your face was like what is
wrong with you?

389
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,240
You poor girl, please leave,
Please go away.

390
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:39,880
I wouldn't have kicked you out.
There's no way.

391
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,760
No, no, no.
But I remember this is the

392
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,160
horror on your face and I was
like, I have lost all control of

393
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,880
my eyeballs.
My thing is, and I'd always say

394
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,640
to people as this is me when I'm
happy, this is me when I'm

395
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,160
angry, this is me when I'm
excited.

396
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,360
And the the crazier things get,
the more me I recount, the more

397
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:02,480
it's sort of like centered and
grounded.

398
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,960
And although I always like
watching and my dad, my mom and

399
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,160
dad were entrepreneurial and
owned the Mako auto painting in

400
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,280
Garland, TX.
And then my best friend Chris

401
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,200
Smith and I would work their
summers and things doing Bondo

402
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,480
and paint.
So once again, like you're kind

403
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,680
of like, OK, I know what, what
my, my things are.

404
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:28,960
And at one point after I lost
everything in real estate, I was

405
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,640
working at a potato chip factory
because it was the highest

406
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,440
paying job I could get at
Borden's potato chip factory.

407
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,680
But I was like the one they
loved to make fun of because I

408
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,040
was like one of the two white
guys pushing this cart through

409
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,280
this with a giant stack of
potato chip boxes.

410
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,560
And you had to work your way
under stuff and through things

411
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,320
and it and it snagged like 4
times.

412
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,200
And by the time I finally get to
the final thing where I'm

413
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:02,120
putting it into the room, the
top box hits the roof and knocks

414
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:06,480
them all down again.
And I start punching these boxes

415
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,560
of potato chips.
So potato chips are flying.

416
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,680
And literally, I finally
stopped.

417
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:16,960
And the Polish women who were
sitting there are looking at

418
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,400
being like, what's just
happened.

419
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,920
And then I had to pick up all
the potato chips with all the

420
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,680
boxes while it kept backing up
in the stack.

421
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,600
And that lesson taught me like,
don't get angry.

422
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,480
Don't do things.
But then you're going to have to

423
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,840
correct later.
Just stay like this.

424
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,040
And so it was a giant lesson at
my lowest point.

425
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,120
I thought it could give me lower
after I'd lost everything.

426
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,280
And I was like, Oh no, there's
there's more lows, there's more

427
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,160
prices, there's more to chips.
I kind of like the visual.

428
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,280
I can even smell that.
That's the full sensory story.

429
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,880
So wait, I want to get back to
your film festivals because so

430
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:04,720
you pass off the Santa Monica 1,
you create deep alum and you

431
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,440
have this mission in it.
How long did you run it and did

432
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,120
was it like blurred as you go?
Was it more successful than you

433
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:15,120
thought?
Or was it you were like, well,

434
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,320
that was interesting.
Well, I reached out to Albert De

435
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,400
Quoi, who's the guy who started
the Santa Monica Film Festival.

436
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,360
I remember there was a film, 6
String Samurai at the time that

437
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:27,560
had kind of been discovered by
his festival.

438
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,920
I was like, hell, there's
something to this, like you're

439
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,240
discovering new talent.
And so I reset to him.

440
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,720
I asked for his guidance.
And then I told the Deep Ellum

441
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,080
people that King Hollis and
Edwin Harris and James Phallus

442
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,960
and a bunch of people.
And I said, I want to do this

443
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,240
Film Festival in Deep Ellum.
And everyone said I'm in.

444
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,880
Everybody said I'm in.
Nobody said, by the way, I'll

445
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:51,640
pay for it.
I.

446
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:56,320
Was waiting for that part.
Yeah, Candy Smith and Chris was

447
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:57,680
like, all these people said they
were in.

448
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,280
And so suddenly I was starting
this philanthropic venture that

449
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,920
had a lot of film makers
support.

450
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,280
And I called all my friends up,
like David Dobkin and Steven

451
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,640
Nemeth and all these people in
Hollywood, and I said, I'm

452
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,800
starting this Film Festival,
raise money for cancer.

453
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,400
Do you have a film that I could
play?

454
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,320
And do you have something that I
could share?

455
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,480
Would you come in?
And they all came in.

456
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,840
And so the first Deep LM Film
Festival, I also was one day

457
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,080
sitting there on the stairs,
like on the verge of tears

458
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,800
because my dad was in all he had
cancer, he was getting worse.

459
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,560
And the whole reason the Film
Festival even happened was I was

460
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,000
driving down the road, my dad
and they said I had this idea of

461
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,480
starting a Film Festival to
raise money for cancer relief,

462
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,400
not Cancer Research, but relief
to help people pay their bills.

463
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,120
And my dad said, you have such
little time left in the world,

464
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:52,280
Michael, and you ought to figure
out a way to make other people's

465
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,320
lives better.
And so in that car that day, I

466
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,000
was like, I guess I'm creating a
Film Festival.

467
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,040
So I am between hanging out with
him and doing the Film Festival.

468
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,720
And all these people came in and
we were at the school theater in

469
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,040
Dallas.
And suddenly was I found

470
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,320
people's radar that Deep Island
could do this.

471
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,800
And so everybody kind of didn't
took it up a notch.

472
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,520
But on the meantime, I was
dealing with my father.

473
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,680
He made it to the Film Festival
for one screening.

474
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,720
He was so I'll and he passed
away on January 9th, was buried

475
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,560
on my birthday, January 12th.
And by the way, during that time

476
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,400
I met the first volunteer for
the Deep Island Film Festival

477
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,680
was my now wife, whose mother
had passed away with pancreatic

478
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,240
cancer.
And she came in to volunteer for

479
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,560
me and I interviewed her.
And I had to leave the interview

480
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,080
at Saint Pete's Dancing Marlin
and go to the bathroom and bawl

481
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,520
like a baby and then come back
out there cleaned up and

482
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,320
continue the interview and that.
So all these like gifts were

483
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,280
coming also with these things
beating these wonderful people,

484
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:03,560
being there for my dad, not
thinking about just me.

485
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,560
But it was like a change in
course.

486
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,640
But it was still in the same
river and it's Deep Ellum.

487
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,080
We did it for seven years.
I got to reach out to Bill

488
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,240
Paxton, who we I worked with
that he had Billy Wild one, one

489
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,640
false mood.
You know, it was one of those

490
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,120
where I really found my place,
which was amplifying other

491
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,200
people's gifts.
I love that.

492
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,240
Did you could they help you get
money?

493
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,880
Would they let you use their
name?

494
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,000
I know a lot of especially
actors are quite protective.

495
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,000
It's and now versus then like
now it's social media is a whole

496
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,640
other thing because social media
wasn't like what it is now.

497
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,080
So it was very different way of
promoting things.

498
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,560
Oh, and I'd left out the one
moment, which is I was broke and

499
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,640
I had no money and the Film
Festival was coming up and I.

500
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,400
You were broke again.
I don't believe that.

501
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,520
Well, putting on a Film Festival
is not a what to get rid of.

502
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,640
It's kind of like documentaries.
You're sort of like everyone

503
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,960
thinks, Oh my God, you're,
you're hanging out with all

504
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,280
these celebrities and you're
doing all the stuff.

505
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,000
You must be wealthy.
And the reality is, no, you're

506
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,640
wealthy differently.
There's the internal, external

507
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,120
and eternal rates of return and
this.

508
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,760
Wait, so are you in the
Producers Guild?

509
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,280
Did you get in the DGA 'cause
you're a producer, so you're not

510
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,000
DGA, so you don't have that
pension to fall back on either?

511
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,080
I haven't ever even tried it,
although I've helped people get

512
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,720
on there.
Because I joined the PGA, I

513
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,720
mean, I was in the room when it
was 25 people.

514
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,160
I was like, I don't know how I
got invited, honestly.

515
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,680
Like I was like, I mean, I had
just worked on some stuff

516
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,800
producing for Sony.
And I don't know if someone said

517
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,000
something and I admit the right,
for the one time I met maybe the

518
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,720
right person who's like, come on
into the room.

519
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,160
And they were like, I think my
dues were like $200.

520
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,960
They were nothing.
And I was like, yeah, give me

521
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,320
the PGA.
Everyone's like the pro golf.

522
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:52,760
I was like, no, it's the
Producers Guild.

523
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,760
So it was just starting.
And so I live in North Carolina

524
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,240
now.
And when my family moved here, I

525
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,520
didn't give it up.
Like my Eagle was like, I worked

526
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,720
18 years, 18 years.
I'm doing all sorts of stuff,

527
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,320
right?
That I, I wanted to keep that.

528
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,880
And like, I got, what was it
Frozen?

529
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,360
I used to get screeners when
screeners were DVDs.

530
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,120
And then my daughter just
thought I was the coolest thing

531
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,800
ever because I had the DVD
Screener of Frozen and

532
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,480
everyone's like, all the kids in
the neighborhood were like, oh,

533
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,680
that's so cool.
And I was like, awesome.

534
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,560
And then I, I gave it up and my
husband's like, Are you ready to

535
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,280
give it up yet?
You know, you haven't actually

536
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,800
produced anything in years.
And I was like, yeah, I could

537
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,960
let it go now because Netflix
has everything anyway.

538
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,080
Well, that I've never gone for
it.

539
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,160
They would probably give you
like a Halo and a Gold Star.

540
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,320
Are you kidding?
I had a film that was up for

541
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:51,040
APGA award a few years ago,
Tower, that we helped them raise

542
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,680
the funding on.
There was a great documentary

543
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,440
that Keith Maitland and Susan
Thompson did, and I got to go to

544
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,240
the PGA dinner, which was
exciting.

545
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,640
But any time that brought me
back because that day that I was

546
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,320
broke, when you think about
those things, they called Rich

547
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,040
Goldberg.
Rich loaned me the money,

548
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,560
ultimately gave me the money to
produce that first festival,

549
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,600
along with my brother, who also
gave me one because we were a

550
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,080
nonprofit.
And they didn't give it for that

551
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:22,320
reason.
They gave it like, because I

552
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,760
needed it.
And I think I've always been

553
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,560
blessed to have people like that
in my life.

554
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,440
You stepped up at the right
moment.

555
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,800
But yeah, that Film Festival,
the next thing that happened now

556
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,920
that festival was I got
approached to make a documentary

557
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:42,240
called TV Junkie, and TV Junkie
is the documentary that took six

558
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,200
years to raise the funding for.
So while I was doing the Deep LM

559
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,600
Film Festival, not getting paid,
I was also doing a documentary

560
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,640
that couldn't get funded.
And so it was just a matter of

561
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,320
losing things like, OK, we don't
have insurance now.

562
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,840
OK, well, we don't have car
insurance either.

563
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,280
OK, we're moving to a smaller
place, but we're doing the

564
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,520
developed Film Festival.
So it was one of those where

565
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,280
it's like the gift of doing the
festival.

566
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,560
And ultimately that led to us
putting together a plan, doing

567
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,280
the AFI Dallas International
Film Festival and starting the

568
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,560
Dallas Film Society, but working
with the American Film

569
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,280
Institute, where I got my
master's.

570
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,200
So you never know where things
lead you.

571
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,160
Like, you have to just sort of
be open to the bigger

572
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,800
possibility that things can lead
out.

573
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,720
And that's always the lesson for
me.

574
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,520
When you're I'm like, I want to
put those pieces together in my

575
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,280
brain.
And so when you're creating a

576
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,480
Film Festival, you're leveraging
your relationships in a not a

577
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,360
bad way.
You're using the people you know

578
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,440
best because it's LA.
You're reaching out to people,

579
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,800
you know to create something
that has meaning for you.

580
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,160
And I like that you it's cancer.
It's like help for people and

581
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,680
not research for many reasons.
That means something to me

582
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:53,960
personally and I didn't know
that.

583
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,840
So I like that'll make me cry,
but it's very touching.

584
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,120
And I, I like that because I
think again, people who maybe

585
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,400
aren't freelancers or people who
are in LA back in the day, you

586
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,920
know, before the Internet and
you did things when you were out

587
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,320
of work, you would turn off this
or get the low, you know,

588
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,200
electric bill.
I don't make enough money,

589
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,280
electric bill.
Like I would do all of those

590
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,000
little Jigger jaggers because
you have to manage what you have

591
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,240
and somehow be able to get to
the job that you're hoping to

592
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,920
get sort of thing.
But then you have this Film

593
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,680
Festival.
So are you just connecting

594
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,400
people and opening the door to
movies and helping choose the

595
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,560
movies?
Are you collecting people who

596
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,880
then choose the movies and then
do film festivals make money for

597
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,440
anybody or is it really a
charity?

598
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,360
Most of them are nonprofits,
including, you know, if you

599
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,440
think about the Sundance Film
Festival being at the top of it,

600
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,920
that's a nonprofit that puts it
on.

601
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,320
So there are certain benefits of
people who want the tax benefits

602
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,600
of making a donation.
There's corporations who want to

603
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,040
get involved because they know
it's been to the community or,

604
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,120
you know, like local ones or
national ones.

605
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,560
And the profile of the festival,
the better films you bring in

606
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,040
and the better venues that you
provide with the bigger

607
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,440
audiences that you get, gets
people to finally go like, OK, I

608
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,600
get that.
We should do a grant for this.

609
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,280
What they'd say.
The 20th Film Festival for the

610
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,239
Dallas International Film
Festival is coming up in April.

611
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,239
And it's grown into, you know,
an amazing festival.

612
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,400
We put that together originally.
Like Todd Wagner, who's partners

613
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,840
with Mark Cuban, recommended a
man named Lanier Timberland.

614
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,719
He was Ross Perot's best friend
and he raised hundreds.

615
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,400
Of OK, that's how I was going to
ask you.

616
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,760
How did you connect with them?
Honestly, the Deep LM Film

617
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,600
Festival, we kept just chugging
along and basically I would go

618
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,040
off and work with David Dobkin
doing like music videos for

619
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,239
Ridley Scott's company and
commercial and take that money.

620
00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:59,960
And then every year I would
apply toward what we needed for

621
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:02,560
the Deep Ellen Film Festival,
whatever gap there was.

622
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,320
And the second year, the Deep
Ellen Film Festival, nobody

623
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,440
thought we were going to do it
because I'd disappeared to take

624
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,840
care of my dad and the press.
Everyone just thought like, what

625
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,400
was the one and done?
And then I come back finally

626
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,400
after months and I'm like, I'm
going to do it.

627
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,680
They're like, oh, we don't even
have sponsorship for you

628
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:22,880
anymore.
We thought you were not going to

629
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,560
do it, which made me angry.
And that's the one thing my

630
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,280
whole life, if you can give me
angry, we're all going.

631
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,480
Oh, yeah.
OK.

632
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,280
And so all of us got together.
We got Peter Beard, the famous

633
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,640
photographer from New York to
come in, kick Carson with Paris,

634
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,520
TX.
Showtime came in, all these

635
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,360
people.
And suddenly, like, New York

636
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,600
Times was writing about us
because we had an art exhibit

637
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,120
with 99 pieces of Peter Beard in
town.

638
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,240
And Sarah Bullock came in
because we were honoring one of

639
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:58,120
her best friends.
And she came in and found out

640
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,080
that it was for cancer and her
mom had died of cancer and said

641
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,800
that suddenly was a nerve that
got struck where people were

642
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,040
like, well, this isn't just a
Film Festival.

643
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,680
This is raising money to help
people with cancer now.

644
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:15,520
And I would actually deliver the
checks and King Hollis would

645
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,560
film me delivering checks to
people.

646
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,560
It was such a rewarding path.
But this group of people, we all

647
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,600
stayed together and it was an
all volunteer Film Festival for

648
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,160
seven years.
So all the people that worked on

649
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,520
it just volunteered to put it on
as we would pay for the venues

650
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,520
and we pay our stuff.
But because it was cancer

651
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,440
relief, people were sort of
like, OK, we can't hit you too

652
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,160
hard.
And so by the time we brought in

653
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:46,760
a consultant and we put together
a plan to create a bigger Dallas

654
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,960
festival because Deep Dal would
become rough, it had become like

655
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,600
a kind of a slightly Dang area
of people through it.

656
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,400
So it was a little scary.
But by the time we did that,

657
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:04,240
Owen, I'd made that movie TV
Junkie took six years to put

658
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:06,880
together.
And a woman, beautiful woman,

659
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,080
Ruth Much stepped in because she
didn't want her children to get

660
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,760
through addiction.
And we made this documentary out

661
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,800
of 3000 hours of footage that a
man had filmed his whole life

662
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,760
from 15 until 50.
And everything was in there,

663
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:25,640
everything that are all the
warts, all the good, the helmed

664
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,840
winning awards, him doing crack
cocaine had the birth of his

665
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,560
children, the death was his
mother.

666
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,760
Like it was all raw and in
there.

667
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,160
And that film won the special
Jury Prize at Sundance.

668
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,720
And HBO ended up picking out
then it was part of the

669
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:45,560
addiction series.
And once again, I'm like, films

670
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,360
can create change.
They can create.

671
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,600
And the Film Festival allowed
you to magnify other people's

672
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,320
gifts.
And that film gave me the taste

673
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:58,800
of what it was like.
But once again, like these weird

674
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,360
paths.
The night that we won the

675
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,920
Special Jury Prize, I call my
mentor Lanier Timberland and

676
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,440
tell him and he goes.
Well, the Perot family, Ross

677
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,120
Perot family and Target just
came on as founding partners for

678
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,840
the AFI Dallas.
I finally make a movie.

679
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,160
I get to see the festival path
and all that.

680
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,600
And instead I have to decide
what I'm going to do.

681
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,840
And we were going to launch it
within a year and a really big

682
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,920
Film Festival at.
Least you had the money.

683
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,160
I mean, that's a lot of money
back behind you this time.

684
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,800
At the time I had a bus, like a
transit bus that we bought from

685
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,840
hippies that we would drive
around as a billboard.

686
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:44,720
And I literally had to like, cut
it off, sell the bus and move

687
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:49,320
into offices that the pro family
owned and and have a suit ready

688
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:54,040
to wear every day because Ross
Perot might walk in with Lanier.

689
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,240
It was once again like a
different path on the same

690
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,880
river.
And so, but it was always like

691
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,520
helping film makers and
storytellers connect with an

692
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,520
audience.
And suddenly we had two, two and

693
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,080
a half, $1,000,000 to do an
event in Dallas.

694
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,080
And we had Lauren McCall and
Sydney Pollack and David Lynch

695
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,000
and Morgan Freeman and everybody
coming into the very first

696
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,080
festival, and they said if we
had 10,000 people show up,

697
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,320
that'd be great.
We had 30,000 people show up.

698
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,720
I find as you're like talking
about how movies can really

699
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:33,720
impact, I keep thinking about
rage bait.

700
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:40,040
Our people are inundated with 1
1/2 seven seconds to 1 1/2

701
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,600
minute crafted, addictive
stories.

702
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:51,240
How does the voice of a longer
narration fight that?

703
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,760
Like, how do we draw people's
attention?

704
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,560
Cause like, even the movie
theaters around me are closing.

705
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,240
That's a huge thing.
I I do think film festivals have

706
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:02,880
a place there because they
create community and what

707
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,320
happens is you don't need
everybody in a town to go to a

708
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,440
movie.
You'd love that and I'd love to

709
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,120
see cinema coming back, but at
the same time you need these

710
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:17,040
organizations.
That create this fan base for

711
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,440
people to the theaters because
the communal experience of

712
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,520
watching films is huge.
I mean, the comedy or romance of

713
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,680
horror, you know, it's so
different when it's magnified

714
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,000
around you and you feel the
tension of the people around

715
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,560
you.
But that's what I've always

716
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,040
loved about film fest, you know,
having now started, well, like

717
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,800
4.
Wait, maybe 5?

718
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,920
Wait about 5?
Want to tell us about the new

719
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:44,280
one?
Do you want to tell us about the

720
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,320
one that's coming now?
Well, we're in a critical month

721
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,040
right now and at the last Film
Festival I started was Earth X

722
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,560
film and it was an environmental
Film Festival because I really

723
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,920
got into impact media.
I began to really feel like if

724
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,200
we let's just focus on what's
the outcome of this movie so

725
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,200
that that journey led to
starting Earth XTV.

726
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,040
And then my 6 year old came up
to me and said, Daddy, why don't

727
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,520
you ever come home at night?
And I literally was like, OK,

728
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,680
and this is COVID and all that.
So we moved to Colorado and I

729
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,720
had no idea I was going to love
Colorado as much as I do.

730
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,280
And getting here, for the first
few years, I just focused on my

731
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,200
daughter being in Montessori
school.

732
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:29,920
But I thought of being in
Montessori school.

733
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:33,400
And so I met the parents of the
Montessori school and that place

734
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,320
called the Lyric Theater came up
for sale here in Fort Collins

735
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:43,560
and had an outdoor movie screen
where 500 to 1000 could sit at 3

736
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,200
screens, indoor concerts, all
this.

737
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,120
And so it got me suddenly out
there, I don't want to do things

738
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,360
outside of Fort Collins anymore.
And I'd produced a concert at

739
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,720
the United Nations.
The largest stage ever built.

740
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:58,480
I'd done a concert was Robert
Redford and his wife's in

741
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,280
Dallas.
I fell in love with all the

742
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,640
filmmaking community here.
Denver has some incredible

743
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,280
boulder and then Sundance
announced it's moving here and

744
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,800
the last Film Festival that I
had started, Dallas really was

745
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,920
best of fest and best of fest.
North Texas with two other

746
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,600
people bar wise Emily Hargrove
and we started a Film Festival

747
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,280
that was 27 film festivals work
together to create one Film

748
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,320
Festival.
And so we asked everybody to

749
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,720
contribute one film or 1 short
and do agree to cross promote

750
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:34,160
it.
And so we had two of them.

751
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,560
And then COVID happened.
But the second one, big crowds,

752
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:42,400
the small Film Festival like the
Asian Film Festival suddenly had

753
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,200
more people that knew it
existed.

754
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,920
But the Black Cinematique for
the LBGTQ festival kind of got

755
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,240
some of the benefits of being
involved with the Dallas

756
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:54,320
International Film Festival and
Earth X Film.

757
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,320
And so the Melbourne of Galapura
started thinking about that idea

758
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:03,440
for Colorado and put together a
plan and there's 40 plus song

759
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,800
festivals in Colorado, but just
recently presented it to the

760
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,160
people including Sundance and
Denver and all these groups and

761
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,480
said let's do this in Colorado.
So I would say by the time this

762
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,160
airs, that will be a fact and it
will be something that is going

763
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:25,720
to happen in 2026.
And what it'll do is further

764
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,520
create a community of the Film
Festival community so that we're

765
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,080
not programming on the same
date, so we're not competing for

766
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,520
things, but we're collaborating
because as you said, movie

767
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,520
theaters are having a hard time.
Film festivals are having a hard

768
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,240
time.
People are sort of like, well, I

769
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:46,480
should hold on my money and not
sponsor that local Film

770
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,600
Festival.
And what we're trying to do is

771
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,160
create a collaborative element
where all sudden people go, what

772
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,840
if I sponsored all the
festivals?

773
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,000
What if I I'm just doing one?
I'm going to start covering more

774
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,520
festivals.
So that film we have Telluride

775
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,480
and we have Sundance and in
Denver and the other 40, we have

776
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,200
the ACT Human Rights Film
Festival in Fort Collins, which

777
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,800
is the best human rights Film
Festival in the country.

778
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,520
And so the thought of getting
them all working together to

779
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,200
create something bigger than us,
that's what I love to do.

780
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:23,640
And tell your ride's hard to get
to.

781
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,960
Let's just be honest.
Let's just tell your ride is

782
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,200
beautiful.
It's hard to get to.

783
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,120
Yeah, the they have a thing
called original thinkers there

784
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,040
that a good friend of mine,
David Holbrook, does.

785
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,160
And I'm always like so hard to
pay for a room there.

786
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:41,680
Well, it's, I love going there,
but I this festival, actually

787
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,240
the first one will be in Fort
Collins and then we'll be in

788
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:46,400
five other cities.
So we might end up doing

789
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,960
something and tell you, right.
You got to combine it with their

790
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,600
Blues Festival.
There's bluegrass, there's a

791
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,440
huge festival there.
And then you know what?

792
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,720
You should have a bunch of
podcasters show up and have

793
00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:59,440
these amazing conversations with
the storytelling.

794
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,960
You invite me, I'm there.
I'm not like, no joke.

795
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,160
I love it.
I think for me that being a

796
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,160
writer and having my critique
group or like my friend, really

797
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,120
my trusted people, like all
over, but it's very isolating,

798
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,160
right?
I'm in my head often alone

799
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,760
arguing or trying to figure
things out and I just not the

800
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,960
collaboration and mania of film,
right?

801
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,240
So I was like, especially after
COVID and you know, my kids old

802
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:32,480
enough to like for me to step
back.

803
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,760
I'm not a helicopter parent.
I really want her to discover

804
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,520
who she is.
That's my job, right?

805
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,000
I was craving community.
I was creating connective

806
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,640
conversations about, hey, where
were you?

807
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,400
How did you get it done and how
do you do it now?

808
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,000
Because I turn off my phone at
least an hour before I go to

809
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,360
bed.
I unplug it in a room in my

810
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,440
office so it's not even near me,
so I can decompress.

811
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,400
Because the doom scrolling and
what politics in general or the

812
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,400
world in general wants to tell
us about everyone is you bad,

813
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,960
you evil, you this, you that.
Because you might not agree on

814
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,720
something and then it like spins
out of control.

815
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:14,960
When in reality, I think,
especially as storytellers and

816
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,400
like why I always say I'm not in
the corporate box is that we see

817
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,440
and experience the world
differently and we want to build

818
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,720
community and I want to
reconnect with that feeling of,

819
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,520
Oh my God, I can help you do
that.

820
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,360
I love helping.
Who do I know that I can maybe

821
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,640
hook you up with and how does
that get better?

822
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,640
And then Oh my God, did you have
an idea for me?

823
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,520
That's amazing.
I I retell the story of I

824
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,600
interview a memoir surname is
Judy Goldman.

825
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,240
She's in her 80s and her newest
memoir just came out and I've

826
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:45,720
been struggling with this one
memoir.

827
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:48,760
I literally have three books and
draft on my desk and I was like,

828
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,320
I just can't find the thread.
Judy.

829
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,440
I just can't find it.
And she's from South Carolina

830
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,680
and she's Holly.
You're writing about home.

831
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:04,040
And I was like and 12,000 words
like I just had my spine.

832
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,680
So I think in connecting and
reconnecting with people that I

833
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,160
do know and that I don't know
there's, there is that positive

834
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:18,440
force for change in a good way
in, in a creative way, in a way

835
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,800
that's more positive.
And that's the best way to

836
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,960
fight, I think the darkness out
there.

837
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,640
And so I think like when I'm
like listening to you, knowing

838
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,880
that you're still stable, even
though now I have an image of

839
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,160
you punching and chewing chips
that like that you don't know

840
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,760
when you help someone where it's
going to lead.

841
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,600
And my ego's not involved in it.
I was helping people for many

842
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,080
years, and they would have these
amazing successes and I would

843
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,360
get these lovely notes.
And I was like, Oh my God, that

844
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:47,480
mattered.
It mattered.

845
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,160
And not because anyone knows.
And when I do nice things, I'm

846
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,360
not like on social media, like,
hey, you know what I did Like,

847
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,040
I'm not that girl either.
So I like knowing that there's

848
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,560
more of that.
And that's what I want to build

849
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,040
here.
You're doing it, which by the

850
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:02,720
way is great because that's the
thing I always like.

851
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:04,960
So many people are like, I have
a great idea, but then they

852
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,720
don't do it.
I've always loved the fact that

853
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:11,160
people come to me later on and
they're like, by the way, that

854
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,920
thing that you did 20 years ago,
I really appreciate it.

855
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,680
Like, that was a big moment for
me and it's happened over and

856
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,040
over.
I was just at a Film Festival

857
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,400
last weekend, but somebody came
up to me at the opening night

858
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:28,000
party and just said my film
played at your festival 20 years

859
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,760
ago.
And you were so kind and so

860
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,800
nice.
And I really like just

861
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,920
remembered that and the the
movie we were doing a film we

862
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,240
just released called the Melody
Maids movie about a group of

863
00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:42,680
high school girls.
They're brought together by a

864
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:48,640
charismatic music teacher who
starts singing for the military

865
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,000
and they're flown all around the
world.

866
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,400
We brought 20 of them back
together for the screening in

867
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,120
this big room to standing
ovations.

868
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,040
I was like, that's the best
moment for me is to see these

869
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,880
twenty women get their due.
And I look at those moments and

870
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,360
that's been my space lately, is
it's all sort of congealed into

871
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,280
impact.
And so always thinking about how

872
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,640
it changes.
I'm working on a docu series

873
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:20,640
with two Jane Monks that will
premiere in January at the in

874
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,280
LA.
And then it's going to be on

875
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,800
Apple TV and it's on
perimenopause.

876
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,160
And it's called balance.
And I'm the barrier for me

877
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,640
because I'm like, I'm not a
woman, but I know what men

878
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,800
should know, what this is.
Men should understand what's

879
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:41,880
happening with this because 100%
of the population are affected

880
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,000
by it.
You know, I feel blessed that

881
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,320
the river has led me to where it
is now and that I don't know

882
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,960
where it'll lead in the future
other than if I can put together

883
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,920
this event.
And I, we're doing a Stanley

884
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,640
Marcus documentary, The Man
Behind Neiman Marcus.

885
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:01,280
And it's fascinating.
Like I said, he's Jewish.

886
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,400
And that that was part of what
was the allure to me was a

887
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:10,240
Jewish man in Dallas, TX who
literally stood up and said,

888
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:14,280
this is what class is.
This is how we elevate the city.

889
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,360
We're doing a podcast with Texas
Monthly on it, so I'm learning

890
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,000
podcasting now.
So again, a new journey for us

891
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,280
all.
Who knows right now the the most

892
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,840
important things for me are my
beautiful wife Molina and her

893
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:33,680
company in three make Media
matter and my 2 little girls who

894
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,240
are 10 and 12.
You know, they're the future.

895
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,480
And I think all this leads
toward Here's the future.

896
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,840
I think you are proof that
living creatively and with

897
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,680
purpose can shape the world, so
I want to thank you for that.

898
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,960
But before I let you go, I have
to ask you my favorite question,

899
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:55,360
which is if you came with a
warning label, what would it be?

900
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,080
I thought about this a little
bit, but to some degree it's

901
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,400
like don't come to me with an
idea if you don't want it to

902
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,040
happen.
I love that.

903
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,920
Many people have ideas but they
don't really want it to be.

904
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,000
And I'm sort of like, if it's a
great idea, I'm going to kick

905
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,240
into gear.
So just be prepared.

906
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,520
You'll see the reality of this
thing in a year or two years and

907
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,320
I won't give up on.
I love that.

908
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,200
Well, thank you, Michaels for
spending this hour with me.

909
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,840
And thanks everyone for
listening to the Holly Hughes

910
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:28,240
Podcast.
See you next time.

911
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:30,280
Thank you all.
Thanks everyone.